Psionic Shaper Feat Combination [Archive] - Wizards Community

Psionic Shaper Feat Combination [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Celas Evriamytholin
05-03-07, 02:44 PM Hello, fellow D&D'ers!

I'm just clearing up everything about my level 9 Psion Shaper to make sure he is completely legal now. Simply because this is my first psionic character and I had wrongfully assumed a few things about their powers, and misread others... mostly that I thought that I could use powers like Freedom of Movement, Darkvision, etc. on others. I can't.

Thats for another thread.

The focus of this thread is just to make sure that I am interpreting my feats correctly and that the combinations that I am using is being correctly used.

We are a group of 7, playing in an Eberron Campaign.

Now, I am a Gray Elf Shaper (9) named Melgar D'Phiarlan. I chose to be directly tied to the house of Shadow and to select a few Dragonmark feats. My character revolves slightly around his astral constructs, and has taken no other offensive powers (like energy ball, etc.).

ah... I thought Augment Construction was the 3.0 equivalent of boost construct... but I guess it isnt...

On to the feats:
I have taken...
Boost Construct (Giving me an additional ability for Ast. constructs) (Level 1)
Least Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 1)
Ectoplasmic Manipulation (Level 3)
Extended Construction (Level 5)
Enhanced Construction (Level 6)
Lesser Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 9)

But since it seems I need augment construction before most of those... I'm gonna have to rearrange it to...

Boost Construct (Giving me an additional ability for Ast. constructs) (Level 1)
Least Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 1)
Augment Construction (Level 3)
Augment Construction [Psionic]
Prerequisite: Manifester level 2nd+.
Benefit: Astral constructs you create with the astral construct powers gain +1 hit point per Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Ectoplasmic Manipulation (Level 5)
Ecto Manipulation [Psionic]
You can manifest a more powerful astral construct at the expense of flexibility.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd+, Augment Construction.
Benefit: When you manifest an astral construct, you can trade in two abilities from the same menu for an ability from the next highest menu. For example when manifesting astral construct VI you can trade in two Menu B selections for a single Menu C selection.

Enhanced Construction (Level 6)
Enhanced Construction [Psionic]
When you manifest constructs, you create additional constructs.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 6th+.
Benefit: When you manifest constructs, you create additional bonus constructs. You create 1d3 bonus constructs of at least two levels below the astral construct power you are manifesting. For example, when a 13th-level psion manifests astral construct VI, she not only gets to choose the construct that normally manifests with the spell, but she also receives 1d3 constructs of her choice of type from I to IV.
Astral
Construct Bonus
Type
I --
II --
III I
IV I to II
V I to III
VI I to IV
VII I to V
VIII I to VI
IX I to VII

Lesser Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 9)
Extended Construction (Next Level)
Extended Construction [Psionic]
You gain an increased duration on your manifested astral constructs.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd+, Augment Construction, Ecto Manipulation.
Benefit: Astral constructs that you manifest have a duration of 1 minute per manifester level instead of their normal duration. For example a 13th-level psion manifests astral construct VI, creating a single type VI construct with a duration of 13 minutes

Hmmph... my original question was if it was okay to combine the additional ability granted by the boost construct feat to use the ecto manipulation feat to make an ability one category higher.

Example: I manifest a first level astral construct. He starts with one ability (Menu A), and my Boost Construct feat gives him a second menu A. Can I join both of those to create a Menu B with the ectoplasmic manipulation feat?

This is assuming I change my feat selection to include the augment construction, etc...

Thanks!
Tempest Stormwind
05-03-07, 03:14 PM Ectomanipulation is a very, VERY strong feat, and was undercosted in 3.0 psionics -- if you know what you're doing, you can get level 1 constructs with menu C abilities, and a lot of them to boot (especially if you also pick up Enhanced Construction, another undercosted feat from the same article and the same edition). Note as well that it has NOT been updated to 3.5, along with a *lot* of other feats from those articles.

The best 3.5 options for a shaper are Boost Construct and the Constructor PrC (which was updated). Do note that several old feats are now Constructor class abilities -- Advanced Construction, Extended Construction, and Enhanced Construction show up as 1st, 5th, and 9th level abilities in a PrC based exclusively on Astral Construct, instead of as feats any ol' shaper can take. Those abilities are INCREDIBLY strong, and as a result belong on the PrC instead of as loose feats.

My DM and I, both experienced in psionics design and development (we co-wrote Untapped Potential together), have agreed to use Ectomanipulation instead of Utility Construct on the Constructor, since it seems like it would be a good ability for the PrC while Utility Construct would not (or at least, not at level 7!). At the level it shows up (12th, ML 11 due to the loss of an ML in that prC) I would have consistent access to 6th level constructs, which have menu B abilities open, meaning I could Manipulate up to Cs one level earlier than straight shapers (but I'm manifesting a level behind them). This is a houserule, though, and it's only because Utility Construct sucks as a 7th level PrC ability. (Note that Menu D doesn't exist anymore either, although I'm working on a reinterpretation of that for constructors.)

In short, you aren't just confusing psionics rules, you're confusing psionics EDITIONS. 3e and 3.5 psionics are even more different than AD&D2e and 3.5 MAGIC are different. You cannot combine feats from 3.0 and expect to get a balanced character.

To directly answer your question, assuming Ectomanipulation is legal (which, by default, it isn't), then yes, you could use Boost Construct's option to upgrade to a higher-level one. This means that at level 3 you could have access to Menu B (normally open at level 7) and at level 7 you'd have access to Menu C (normally unavailable until level 13), some of which are disgustingly powerful if you get them that early.

For more information on psionics, I would highly suggest you read the FAQ and New DM/Player's Guide, both linked in my sig.
Celas Evriamytholin
05-03-07, 04:02 PM I can see how it _could_ be abused, but I dont use it all that much. I'm more of a support, roguish character than anything else. I don't have a single direct-damage power, thus I rely on my constructs to do the damage for me.

I use them in moderation, and such it doesn't have much of an effect in game... the lesser constructs are barely able to hit what we're fighting anyway.

I'm also a Shaper, not a Constructor... I only have boost construct once :)

I think I understand what you're saying though. It could easily be abused.
Tempest Stormwind
05-03-07, 04:37 PM It's not a matter of being abused or not.

Imagine if you were playing a wizard and were able to summon monsters as if you were 4 or even SIX levels above what you could otherwise? They wouldn't last any longer, but they'd exist.

That's essentially what Ectomanipulation 3.0 does. It doesn't grant individually stronger constructs, but it opens up immense power and versatility far earlier than it could be.

Enhanced Construction, if allowed, makes 9 levels in Constructor obsolete. The big thing with that class is the ability to create more constructs that are individually better. The 'more' thing is so powerful and useful that it comes in at 9th level in the PrC and grants +1 construct for +2pp on the power itself (essentially, you can get 1 9th level construct, 2 8th levels, or 3 7th levels, all for the same cost). Compare this to Enhanced Construction, which grants you 1d3 identical constructs from two levels lower for free -- and from a lower level. Anyone with that feat can get a 9th level and 1-3 7th level constructs at no special cost beyond the feat.

The strength of Astral Construct isn't in its offense. It's in its DEFENSE. Look at that natural armor, all the hit points, and the better defensive options. These things are meant to be TANKS. If you get a lot of them, you can create a WALL of constructs that can keep anyone from you, with the biggest of them capable offensively on the side due to high Strength scores (particularly with Muscle). If you look solely at their attack bonuses, you're missing out on their true power. (They CAN be powerful offensive batteries, but that requires multiple menu choices, grantable only through Constructor and a few PrCs from Hyperconscious).

I'm just letting you know this in the hopes you'll inform your group and they're all OK with what potential power you have. Note that "I'm overpowered, but I don't use it often" isn't a good excuse. It's like saying that you're a druid, but you don't keep an animal companion and never wild shape. The *class* is still overpowered, just as these *feats* are overpowered for their cost. (Besides, "I'm taking this feat. I won't be overpowered unless I use it" is kind of silly, no?)
Celas Evriamytholin
05-03-07, 07:56 PM I understand... but in our game it doesn't really seem to make that much difference. I will speak to it further with my DM, though.

As for the wall of Constructs, we rule that you can only have one summoning spell or power on at once. Otherwise, its too much for anyone o.O

Thanks for the feedback, I'll let the man in charge have a look at what you said :)
Tempest Stormwind
05-03-07, 09:00 PM Hardly too much for anyone -- I can routinely run two to FOUR constructs on my turn, along with my own activities, and generally have my turn over faster in table-time than our TWF ranger or monk/swordsage. We tend to end combats before I have a chance to get the fourth one out, though.

If you can only have one construct in existence at a time, then Enhanced Construction becomes even *more* powerful than I described above.

It's your game, but I still think you're making a mistake by throwing them in as feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celas Evriamytholin 05-03-07, 02:44 PM	Hello, fellow D&D'ers! I'm just clearing up everything about my level 9 Psion Shaper to make sure he is completely legal now. Simply because this is my first psionic character and I had wrongfully assumed a few things about their powers, and misread others... mostly that I thought that I could use powers like Freedom of Movement, Darkvision, etc. on others. I can't. Thats for another thread. The focus of this thread is just to make sure that I am interpreting my feats correctly and that the combinations that I am using is being correctly used. We are a group of 7, playing in an Eberron Campaign. Now, I am a Gray Elf Shaper (9) named Melgar D'Phiarlan. I chose to be directly tied to the house of Shadow and to select a few Dragonmark feats. My character revolves slightly around his astral constructs, and has taken no other offensive powers (like energy ball, etc.). ah... I thought Augment Construction was the 3.0 equivalent of boost construct... but I guess it isnt... On to the feats: I have taken... Boost Construct (Giving me an additional ability for Ast. constructs) (Level 1) Least Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 1) Ectoplasmic Manipulation (Level 3) Extended Construction (Level 5) Enhanced Construction (Level 6) Lesser Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 9) But since it seems I need augment construction before most of those... I'm gonna have to rearrange it to... Boost Construct (Giving me an additional ability for Ast. constructs) (Level 1) Least Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 1) Augment Construction (Level 3) Augment Construction [Psionic] Prerequisite: Manifester level 2nd+. Benefit: Astral constructs you create with the astral construct powers gain +1 hit point per Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls. Ectoplasmic Manipulation (Level 5) Ecto Manipulation [Psionic] You can manifest a more powerful astral construct at the expense of flexibility. Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd+, Augment Construction. Benefit: When you manifest an astral construct, you can trade in two abilities from the same menu for an ability from the next highest menu. For example when manifesting astral construct VI you can trade in two Menu B selections for a single Menu C selection. Enhanced Construction (Level 6) Enhanced Construction [Psionic] When you manifest constructs, you create additional constructs. Prerequisite: Manifester level 6th+. Benefit: When you manifest constructs, you create additional bonus constructs. You create 1d3 bonus constructs of at least two levels below the astral construct power you are manifesting. For example, when a 13th-level psion manifests astral construct VI, she not only gets to choose the construct that normally manifests with the spell, but she also receives 1d3 constructs of her choice of type from I to IV. Astral Construct Bonus Type I -- II -- III I IV I to II V I to III VI I to IV VII I to V VIII I to VI IX I to VII Lesser Dragonmark (Shadow) (Level 9) Extended Construction (Next Level) Extended Construction [Psionic] You gain an increased duration on your manifested astral constructs. Prerequisite: Manifester level 3rd+, Augment Construction, Ecto Manipulation. Benefit: Astral constructs that you manifest have a duration of 1 minute per manifester level instead of their normal duration. For example a 13th-level psion manifests astral construct VI, creating a single type VI construct with a duration of 13 minutes Hmmph... my original question was if it was okay to combine the additional ability granted by the boost construct feat to use the ecto manipulation feat to make an ability one category higher. Example: I manifest a first level astral construct. He starts with one ability (Menu A), and my Boost Construct feat gives him a second menu A. Can I join both of those to create a Menu B with the ectoplasmic manipulation feat? This is assuming I change my feat selection to include the augment construction, etc... Thanks!
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-07, 03:14 PM	Ectomanipulation is a very, VERY strong feat, and was undercosted in 3.0 psionics -- if you know what you're doing, you can get level 1 constructs with menu C abilities, and a lot of them to boot (especially if you also pick up Enhanced Construction, another undercosted feat from the same article and the same edition). Note as well that it has NOT been updated to 3.5, along with a lot of other feats from those articles. The best 3.5 options for a shaper are Boost Construct and the Constructor PrC (which was updated). Do note that several old feats are now Constructor class abilities -- Advanced Construction, Extended Construction, and Enhanced Construction show up as 1st, 5th, and 9th level abilities in a PrC based exclusively on Astral Construct, instead of as feats any ol' shaper can take. Those abilities are INCREDIBLY strong, and as a result belong on the PrC instead of as loose feats. My DM and I, both experienced in psionics design and development (we co-wrote Untapped Potential together), have agreed to use Ectomanipulation instead of Utility Construct on the Constructor, since it seems like it would be a good ability for the PrC while Utility Construct would not (or at least, not at level 7!). At the level it shows up (12th, ML 11 due to the loss of an ML in that prC) I would have consistent access to 6th level constructs, which have menu B abilities open, meaning I could Manipulate up to Cs one level earlier than straight shapers (but I'm manifesting a level behind them). This is a houserule, though, and it's only because Utility Construct sucks as a 7th level PrC ability. (Note that Menu D doesn't exist anymore either, although I'm working on a reinterpretation of that for constructors.) In short, you aren't just confusing psionics rules, you're confusing psionics EDITIONS. 3e and 3.5 psionics are even more different than AD&D2e and 3.5 MAGIC are different. You cannot combine feats from 3.0 and expect to get a balanced character. To directly answer your question, assuming Ectomanipulation is legal (which, by default, it isn't), then yes, you could use Boost Construct's option to upgrade to a higher-level one. This means that at level 3 you could have access to Menu B (normally open at level 7) and at level 7 you'd have access to Menu C (normally unavailable until level 13), some of which are disgustingly powerful if you get them that early. For more information on psionics, I would highly suggest you read the FAQ and New DM/Player's Guide, both linked in my sig.
Celas Evriamytholin 05-03-07, 04:02 PM	I can see how it _could_ be abused, but I dont use it all that much. I'm more of a support, roguish character than anything else. I don't have a single direct-damage power, thus I rely on my constructs to do the damage for me. I use them in moderation, and such it doesn't have much of an effect in game... the lesser constructs are barely able to hit what we're fighting anyway. I'm also a Shaper, not a Constructor... I only have boost construct once :) I think I understand what you're saying though. It could easily be abused.
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-07, 04:37 PM	It's not a matter of being abused or not. Imagine if you were playing a wizard and were able to summon monsters as if you were 4 or even SIX levels above what you could otherwise? They wouldn't last any longer, but they'd exist. That's essentially what Ectomanipulation 3.0 does. It doesn't grant individually stronger constructs, but it opens up immense power and versatility far earlier than it could be. Enhanced Construction, if allowed, makes 9 levels in Constructor obsolete. The big thing with that class is the ability to create more constructs that are individually better. The 'more' thing is so powerful and useful that it comes in at 9th level in the PrC and grants +1 construct for +2pp on the power itself (essentially, you can get 1 9th level construct, 2 8th levels, or 3 7th levels, all for the same cost). Compare this to Enhanced Construction, which grants you 1d3 identical constructs from two levels lower for free -- and from a lower level. Anyone with that feat can get a 9th level and 1-3 7th level constructs at no special cost beyond the feat. The strength of Astral Construct isn't in its offense. It's in its DEFENSE. Look at that natural armor, all the hit points, and the better defensive options. These things are meant to be TANKS. If you get a lot of them, you can create a WALL of constructs that can keep anyone from you, with the biggest of them capable offensively on the side due to high Strength scores (particularly with Muscle). If you look solely at their attack bonuses, you're missing out on their true power. (They CAN be powerful offensive batteries, but that requires multiple menu choices, grantable only through Constructor and a few PrCs from Hyperconscious). I'm just letting you know this in the hopes you'll inform your group and they're all OK with what potential power you have. Note that "I'm overpowered, but I don't use it often" isn't a good excuse. It's like saying that you're a druid, but you don't keep an animal companion and never wild shape. The class is still overpowered, just as these feats are overpowered for their cost. (Besides, "I'm taking this feat. I won't be overpowered unless I use it" is kind of silly, no?)
Celas Evriamytholin 05-03-07, 07:56 PM	I understand... but in our game it doesn't really seem to make that much difference. I will speak to it further with my DM, though. As for the wall of Constructs, we rule that you can only have one summoning spell or power on at once. Otherwise, its too much for anyone o.O Thanks for the feedback, I'll let the man in charge have a look at what you said :)
Tempest Stormwind 05-03-07, 09:00 PM	Hardly too much for anyone -- I can routinely run two to FOUR constructs on my turn, along with my own activities, and generally have my turn over faster in table-time than our TWF ranger or monk/swordsage. We tend to end combats before I have a chance to get the fourth one out, though. If you can only have one construct in existence at a time, then Enhanced Construction becomes even more powerful than I described above. It's your game, but I still think you're making a mistake by throwing them in as feats.