question about Active Shield Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

question about Active Shield Defense [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BananaB
12-30-07, 10:36 PM The Active Shield Defense feat from PHB2 is giving me some troubles. the feat says:When fighting defensively and using a shield, you do not take the standard fighting defensively penalties on attacks of opportunity.
the srd says:Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

What i don't understand is that Fighting Defensively doesn't say anything about attacs of opportunity. Does the full round mean it lasts until your next attack? If so, why would you take -4 on attacks during your turn but not take that -4 on an attack of opportunity which is much less planned out? It doesn't really make sense to me.

the second part of Active Shield Defense says:When using the total defense action with a shield, you still threaten the area around you as normal, you can make attacks of opportunity with a -4 penalty.

Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks?

This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance.
BugHunter
12-30-07, 11:54 PM The Active Shield Defense feat from PHB2 is giving me some troubles.

What i don't understand is that Fighting Defensively doesn't say anything about attacs of opportunity. Does the full round mean it lasts until your next attack? If so, why would you take -4 on attacks during your turn but not take that -4 on an attack of opportunity which is much less planned out? It doesn't really make sense to me.

You would take -4 to all attacks including AoOs made after declaring you are fighting defensively until your initiative comes back around.

the second part of Active Shield Defense says:

Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks?

This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance.

My guess would be is you are still mainly defending and if someone gives you a chance for an AoO you can take advantage of the opening.

I hope this helps.
kuonji
12-31-07, 05:59 AM Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks?

This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance.

From the SRD:
Total Defense

You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

Total Defense is a standard action. Attacking typically requires a standard or full-round action. If you choose to use Total Defense then you do not have a standard or full-round action available to attack, that is the reason you cannot make attacks when using Total Defense, not because Total Defense is a full round action. The Active Shield Defense feat allows you to make AoOs, something you normally cannot do when using Total Defense, the benefit seems fairly clear to me in this regard.

Also, I don't see anything about not threatening squares when using Total Defense, where did you get that from?

Building on that, the first part of the feat makes your AoO's better when fighting defensively. To me this feat looks like it's designed to improve your reactive combat skills (attacks of opportunity) when using a shield and actively defending yourself (fight defensively, total defense).
jaelis
12-31-07, 08:33 AM Also, I don't see anything about not threatening squares when using Total Defense, where did you get that from?

Normally you don't threaten while using total defense, because you can't attack and you only threaten squares that you can attack.

As to Active Shield Defense, the game mechanics are pretty clear. If you're looking for a flavor justification, consider that the feat allows you to switch very quickly from a defensive to an offensive posture. If you want the benefits of fighting defensively, you still need to spend most of your turn parrying and blocking, which prevents or hinders the feinting and manuvering needed to set up a real attack. But if your opponent drops his guard, you can quickly take advantage of it.

It might help to realize that AoOs are generally much quicker than regular attacks (compare to an immediate action spell vs a standard action one). So the ability to drop your defenses for an AoO doesn't really suggest that you should be able to do the same thing for a regular attack.
StevenO
12-31-07, 01:48 PM If I'm following the right feat here is what Active Shield Defense gets you:

When Fighting Defensively: You don't take the attack penalty when making AoO. Normally you take the -4 attack penalty on ALL attacks until your next round but with ASD you take that penalty on most of your attack (the ones you initiate) but get to make AoO without the penalty.

When using Full Defense: You still threaten and can make AoO at -4. This is a HUGE benefit as normally taking a Full Defense just makes you like a rock which is easy enough to avoid; now moving past you is still risky and you'd still act as a flanker for your allies.

If you never use those defensive fighting styles (Combat Expertise doesn't count) this feat offers you no advantage. If you DO make extensive use of those styles to improve you AC this feat makes you much harder to completely ignore.
Tony Vargas
01-02-08, 11:03 PM As an aside, Combat Expertise needs to have a 'special' appended to it, along the lines of "any feat or combat option that requires you to be 'Fighting Defensively' can be used if you use Combat Expertise, choosing at least a -2 penalty."

While you /can/ use CE & Fighting Defensively at the same time, a -5 to -9 AB penalty is pretty steep, and there are many (/many/) feats that call for 'Fighting Defensively' when CE would be as or more apropriate. In fact 'Deadly Defense' is the only feat I can recall that "get's it right" in that regard, allowing you to use either.
StevenO
01-03-08, 12:41 AM As an aside to Tony's aside I would NOT allow the ASD feat to negate all the attack penalty burnt by CE if you use that suggestion. Perhaps allow it to negate up to a -5 penalty although -4 is where the feat actually stand but definitely not the entire penalty. IF you allowed CE to take advantage of ASD then it should also work with Improved Combat Expertise which removes the cap allowing one to sacrifice their full BAB into AC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BananaB 12-30-07, 10:36 PM	The Active Shield Defense feat from PHB2 is giving me some troubles. the feat says:When fighting defensively and using a shield, you do not take the standard fighting defensively penalties on attacks of opportunity. the srd says:Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. What i don't understand is that Fighting Defensively doesn't say anything about attacs of opportunity. Does the full round mean it lasts until your next attack? If so, why would you take -4 on attacks during your turn but not take that -4 on an attack of opportunity which is much less planned out? It doesn't really make sense to me. the second part of Active Shield Defense says:When using the total defense action with a shield, you still threaten the area around you as normal, you can make attacks of opportunity with a -4 penalty. Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks? This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance.
BugHunter 12-30-07, 11:54 PM	The Active Shield Defense feat from PHB2 is giving me some troubles. What i don't understand is that Fighting Defensively doesn't say anything about attacs of opportunity. Does the full round mean it lasts until your next attack? If so, why would you take -4 on attacks during your turn but not take that -4 on an attack of opportunity which is much less planned out? It doesn't really make sense to me. You would take -4 to all attacks including AoOs made after declaring you are fighting defensively until your initiative comes back around. the second part of Active Shield Defense says: Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks? This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance. My guess would be is you are still mainly defending and if someone gives you a chance for an AoO you can take advantage of the opening. I hope this helps.
kuonji 12-31-07, 05:59 AM	Normally you can't make any attacks while in total defense and don't threaten the area around you. With this feat you do threaten the area around you which is useful for flanking but why would you be able to make attacks of opportunity but not normal attacks? This feat appears to have many issues and i'm wondering if maybe its just me and i'm missing something. Could someone please give some guidance. From the SRD: Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. Total Defense is a standard action. Attacking typically requires a standard or full-round action. If you choose to use Total Defense then you do not have a standard or full-round action available to attack, that is the reason you cannot make attacks when using Total Defense, not because Total Defense is a full round action. The Active Shield Defense feat allows you to make AoOs, something you normally cannot do when using Total Defense, the benefit seems fairly clear to me in this regard. Also, I don't see anything about not threatening squares when using Total Defense, where did you get that from? Building on that, the first part of the feat makes your AoO's better when fighting defensively. To me this feat looks like it's designed to improve your reactive combat skills (attacks of opportunity) when using a shield and actively defending yourself (fight defensively, total defense).
jaelis 12-31-07, 08:33 AM	Also, I don't see anything about not threatening squares when using Total Defense, where did you get that from? Normally you don't threaten while using total defense, because you can't attack and you only threaten squares that you can attack. As to Active Shield Defense, the game mechanics are pretty clear. If you're looking for a flavor justification, consider that the feat allows you to switch very quickly from a defensive to an offensive posture. If you want the benefits of fighting defensively, you still need to spend most of your turn parrying and blocking, which prevents or hinders the feinting and manuvering needed to set up a real attack. But if your opponent drops his guard, you can quickly take advantage of it. It might help to realize that AoOs are generally much quicker than regular attacks (compare to an immediate action spell vs a standard action one). So the ability to drop your defenses for an AoO doesn't really suggest that you should be able to do the same thing for a regular attack.
StevenO 12-31-07, 01:48 PM	If I'm following the right feat here is what Active Shield Defense gets you: When Fighting Defensively: You don't take the attack penalty when making AoO. Normally you take the -4 attack penalty on ALL attacks until your next round but with ASD you take that penalty on most of your attack (the ones you initiate) but get to make AoO without the penalty. When using Full Defense: You still threaten and can make AoO at -4. This is a HUGE benefit as normally taking a Full Defense just makes you like a rock which is easy enough to avoid; now moving past you is still risky and you'd still act as a flanker for your allies. If you never use those defensive fighting styles (Combat Expertise doesn't count) this feat offers you no advantage. If you DO make extensive use of those styles to improve you AC this feat makes you much harder to completely ignore.
Tony Vargas 01-02-08, 11:03 PM	As an aside, Combat Expertise needs to have a 'special' appended to it, along the lines of "any feat or combat option that requires you to be 'Fighting Defensively' can be used if you use Combat Expertise, choosing at least a -2 penalty." While you /can/ use CE & Fighting Defensively at the same time, a -5 to -9 AB penalty is pretty steep, and there are many (/many/) feats that call for 'Fighting Defensively' when CE would be as or more apropriate. In fact 'Deadly Defense' is the only feat I can recall that "get's it right" in that regard, allowing you to use either.
StevenO 01-03-08, 12:41 AM	As an aside to Tony's aside I would NOT allow the ASD feat to negate all the attack penalty burnt by CE if you use that suggestion. Perhaps allow it to negate up to a -5 penalty although -4 is where the feat actually stand but definitely not the entire penalty. IF you allowed CE to take advantage of ASD then it should also work with Improved Combat Expertise which removes the cap allowing one to sacrifice their full BAB into AC.