Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fiery_Fighter_Drake 04-08-08, 01:03 PM	Basically, I have a fighter with Leap Attack and Combat Brute. Leap Attack, under certain circumstances which include charging, increase damage with Power Attack to x3. Combat Brute is a tactical feat which allows me to use a maneuver that increases my damage with Power Attack to x3 in the round after I've charged an enemy. Here's the question: If I charge an enemy with Leap Attack and somehow manage to charge him again in the following round with Leap Attack, this time with Combat Brute maneuver, how will the two x3 stack? I've had two opinions already, x5 or x9. What is the official answer? Leap Attack is from Complete Adventurer Combat Brute is from Complete Warrior
aelryinth 04-08-08, 01:26 PM	Basically, I have a fighter with Leap Attack and Combat Brute. Leap Attack, under certain circumstances which include charging, increase damage with Power Attack to x3. Combat Brute is a tactical feat which allows me to use a maneuver that increases my damage with Power Attack to x3 in the round after I've charged an enemy. Here's the question: If I charge an enemy with Leap Attack and somehow manage to charge him again in the following round with Leap Attack, this time with Combat Brute maneuver, how will the two x3 stack? I've had two opinions already, x5 or x9. What is the official answer? Leap Attack is from Complete Adventurer Combat Brute is from Complete Warrior Feats don't stack on themselves. Just follow the standard rules. You don't get the benefits of Leap Attack twice, only once. And it was errata'd to be |100% of normal Power Attack, not doubling. So, you Leap Attack and do Power attack dmg as normal, +100% of it from PA. the next round, you somehow charge them again and use Combat Brute in addition. Combat Brute changes your multiplier to x3 from x2 for a two handed weapon, but Leap Attack works off the base, not the buff, so it gives the same amount of damage as if Combat Brute was not there. You'd end up with a x5, I believe....x2 for two handed, increased to x3 for Combat Brute, and +another x2 for Leap Attack. Would I as a DM let you do this? Probably not, as the feat is clearly meant to give you an impact in a fight you are already engaged in, not one that you are exiting and entering again...but as written, it should work fine. ===Aelryinth
ToastedAmphibian 04-08-08, 07:54 PM	Sudden leap, belt of battle, hustle, or do people just tend to withdrawl after you charge them?
Divisionbyzer0 04-08-08, 09:36 PM	Sudden leap, belt of battle, hustle, or do people just tend to withdrawl after you charge them? Depends on how bad you f$cked them them up with the charge. A smart opponent won't withdrawal unless he knows he can get away from your charge range entirely, if you devastated him the first time.
mplindustries 04-08-08, 11:20 PM	Sudden Leap wins in charge builds. Additionally, if it wasn't clear already, the answer is x5. All multipliers in D&D are actually code for +X%, so x2 = +100%, x3= +200%, etc. x3 + x3 = +200% + 200% = +400% = x5
Divisionbyzer0 04-09-08, 12:23 AM	"Sudden leap"?
Divisionbyzer0 04-09-08, 12:26 AM	All multipliers in D&D are actually code for +X%, so x2 = +100%, x3= +200%, etc. x3 + x3 = +200% + 200% = +400% = x5 This is sig worthy.
ToastedAmphibian 04-09-08, 02:29 AM	"Sudden leap"? Sudden leap is a first level tiger claw manuever from TOB It lets you make a jump check as a swift action. First round, charge Secound round, use sudden leap to move away from your target, then charge agian. Oh, and you dont have to double the DC if you dont move first, so its really rater easy to move far enough away to charge them.
narack 04-09-08, 07:46 AM	Both feat don't stack like that, read Combat brute correctly, it activate the round after the charge. round 1 : Charge 10'(min) + Jump 10' + Leap Attack (-1 to attack give +3 damage on Power Attack) + Combat brute is now activated round 2 : you can now activate combat brute for another -1 to attack for 3 damage on Power Attack) So end of story it's only giving you 2 consecutive round with a power attack of -1 attack for +3 damage. Any way Combat brute is an attack either standard or full round action. and Charge is a full round action so both can't be in the same round. What you will want although is Powerful Charge for a 2d6 Extra damage (3d6 large size) which is multipliable on a crit. Maybe greater powerful charge to consider yourself 1 size bigger for the powerful charge.
McPoyo 04-09-08, 08:41 AM	Just because it's apparently not clear, the OP was asking this: "If I Leap Attack to get he x3 PA multiplier, activating Combat Brute for round two, on round two if I somehow get another Leap Attack (x3 PA multiplier), does it stack with the Combat Brute (another x3 because it's now round two), and for what multiplier? Is it a x5 or a x9?" The correct answer is x5, The math on the +%'s is correct.
Spikes01k 04-09-08, 12:57 PM	Man am I getting jiped by my GM? Power Attack Two Normal is x2 for two handed weapon. Leap Attack x3, +1 to the x2 Combat Brue x3, +1 to the x2 So combining, would be x2+1+1=x4???
Tordak 04-09-08, 01:58 PM	The above is not a bad way to see it. I believe that it is the correct one, you increase your 'multiplier' for the power attack trade-off by 1 in both case. They are not independant trade off receiving the bonus for each feat, or 2 feats applying to 2 different bonus, it's rather one use of power attack that gets an increase in 2 way. I wouldn't say your DM is ripping you off. The x5 way sounds good too, but it's more like multiplying something that's already multiplied. Since leap attack was written after and there are no erratas or clarification regarding that issue, it could be one or the other. However, leap attack has been errated, so now you have a 1-to-4 trade off with a 2 handed weapon. comparing to 1 handed weapon for combat brute, the bonus goes from 1-to-1 to 1-to-2, while leap attack gives you and additional 100% on your normal power attack damage (so 2x actually become 4x). In this optic, it would be X4 + 1 = x5. If someone give up x to its AB, I'd say it's : - 2x from regular power attack with 2 handed - increase of multiplier to 1-to-3, so 3x from combat brute - + 2x from leap attack, which adds 100% of your normal power attack damages for a grand total of 5x, 1-to-5 AB-to-Damage trade off.
McPoyo 04-09-08, 02:00 PM	Yup.
mplindustries 04-09-08, 07:02 PM	Man am I getting jiped by my GM? Power Attack Two Normal is x2 for two handed weapon. Leap Attack x3, +1 to the x2 Combat Brue x3, +1 to the x2 So combining, would be x2+1+1=x4??? I have to admit I was just adding numbers without checking their sources. This is actually the correct calculation. Using a two-handed weapon is +100%, Leap Attack is +100%, Combat Brute is +100%, so yes, truly, it is neither x5 nor x9. It is in fact x4. The problem people have is that they think using a two-handed weapon changes the base power attack, whereas it actually just counts as another +100%, because it explicitly says it doubles the normal bonus damage.
Spikes01k 04-09-08, 08:40 PM	I have to admit I was just adding numbers without checking their sources. This is actually the correct calculation. Using a two-handed weapon is +100%, Leap Attack is +100%, Combat Brute is +100%, so yes, truly, it is neither x5 nor x9. It is in fact x4. The problem people have is that they think using a two-handed weapon changes the base power attack, whereas it actually just counts as another +100%, because it explicitly says it doubles the normal bonus damage. OK, thank you.
NoldorForce 04-09-08, 09:05 PM	None of the above, actually. First off, employing a two-handed weapon simply uses a different attack/damage ratio. It's not a multiplier at all. ("...instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.") Second, Combat Brute functions the same way in that it changes the damage ratio and is not a multiplier. Third, Leap Attack adds +100% of the "normal bonus damage" from Power Attack, which (as per Combat Brute) is at a 1-to-3 attack/damage ratio. Combat Brute doesn't add extra damage so much as alter how the standard damage is calculated in the first place. Oh, and there are no multipliers (as D&D defines them) used anywhere in this exercise.
NoldorForce 04-09-08, 09:08 PM	The problem people have is that they think using a two-handed weapon changes the base power attack, whereas it actually just counts as another +100%, because it explicitly says it doubles the normal bonus damage.It says nothing of the sort.If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.Bolding mine. This is why Power Attack with a two-hander is entirely distinct from doing so with a one-hander.
mplindustries 04-09-08, 10:12 PM	It says nothing of the sort. Originally Posted by SRD: Power Attack If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. Bolding mine. This is why Power Attack with a two-hander is entirely distinct from doing so with a one-hander. Allow me to quote that again and bold something else: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. Twicing = Doubling = x2 = +100% You do indeed double instead of not doubling. Combat Brute actually says: "Your attacks...gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1-1/2, or x3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands..." The errata on Leap Attack is clear and gives +100%, and it is of the "normal bonus damage" not the increased bonus damage thanks to any other feats you have, or the increased damage from using the "Special" section of the feat. It says "normal." So I suppose you could argue that the calculation is: 1) Wielding the weapon two-handed "twices" it (x2 = +100%) 2) Combat Brute overrides the x2 (+100%) and sets it to x3 (+200%) 3) Leap Attack adds +100% The calculation is now Combat Brute (+200%) + Leap Attack (+100%) = +300% = x4. So it is slightly different, since Combat Brute does override the two-handed bonus, but its the same total result.
risner 04-09-08, 10:38 PM	Here's the question: If I charge an enemy with Leap Attack and somehow manage to charge him again in the following round with Leap Attack, this time with Combat Brute maneuver, how will the two x3 stack? I've had two opinions already, x5 or x9. What is the official answer? Ok, several issues. They both say you get x3 from Power Attack Two Handed Weapons. They don't appear to stack, so the answer is x3. If your DM rules they do stack (despite being worded somewhat like Powerful Built and Monkey Grip), then they would stack as x4 (or x5 if you take +100% to mean the base 2x instead of 1x.) There is absolutely no way they would ever stack to be x9, period. At least not in D&D 3.5 games.
NoldorForce 04-09-08, 10:49 PM	The errata on Leap Attack is clear and gives +100%, and it is of the "normal bonus damage" not the increased bonus damage thanks to any other feats you have, or the increased damage from using the "Special" section of the feat. It says "normal."Which means a 1-to-1 damage ratio with a one-hander, a 1-to-2 damage ratio with a two-hander, or a 1-to-3 damage ratio with a two-hander and Combat Brute. The Frenzied Berserker errata helps to define "normal bonus damage":Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each -1 penalty she applies to her attack rollsThe text here instead uses just "normal damage", but the two are the same given the context. And as above, WotC has defined such to be all the damage from your attack/damage ratio, not just the small value that one-handers get. At the very least, it includes all the damage that two-handers normally get (with a 1-to-2 ratio). @ risner: Leap Attack was errata'd to be an additive percentage (ie, +100%).
mplindustries 04-10-08, 12:23 AM	Which means a 1-to-1 damage ratio with a one-hander, a 1-to-2 damage ratio with a two-hander, or a 1-to-3 damage ratio with a two-hander and Combat Brute. Originally Posted by Complete Warrior Errata Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words, when using the Power Attack feat, a frenzied berserker wielding a two-handed weapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls (instead of a +2 bonus) for each -1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls The Frenzied Berserker errata helps to define "normal bonus damage":The text here instead uses just "normal damage", but the two are the same given the context. And as above, WotC has defined such to be all the damage from your attack/damage ratio, not just the small value that one-handers get. At the very least, it includes all the damage that two-handers normally get (with a 1-to-2 ratio). Well, you certainly have backing there. I'm officially going to graciously concede here. However, unofficially, I really have to say I think that the example is wrong and that was a poorly worded way to get the intent of the ability across. I am not sure I'd take an example as RAW (especially given stuff like the Abjurant Champion or almost every example character in the Tome of Battle), but I will admit I have only implication to back my point. For example, the original wording of Leap Attack said that if you used "this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from power attack." Now, there are three interpretations of this: 1) It meant that triple the normal base damage included the 2 to 1 two-hander ratio as "base," which is what you are proposing. This means it would have had a significantly higher impact on the Leap Attack damage for a two handed weapon than on the one hander (2 to 1 vs. 6 to 1?), and I find that gap highly unlikely to have been included in any printed version, no matter how poorly edited it was. 2) It meant that triple the normal base damage meant it was a x3, and the two-hand bonus is a x2. Thus, x2 + x3 means a 4 to 1 ratio, which is the number you're proposing, but relies on "normal base damage" meaning the 1 to 1 base ratio. 3) It meant triple the penalty you took total, and worded its intent to provide a 3 to 1 ratio poorly. It really wanted to say that it increased the ratio by 1, but had no language availble to say so. Now, I think this last one was it, but obviously, no proof. So then comes the errata. For clarity, they released errata that changed the wording to +100% the normal bonus damage across the board. Presumably, they did not actually change the intended power level of the feat, they intended to simply clarify and unify the wording so that it was officially the power level they wanted. Now, if "normal bonus damage" includes the extra +100% from the special section of Power Attack, they did one of 3 things: 1) Vastly reduced its power (6 to 1 all the way down to 4 to 1?) 2) Somehow redefined "normal bonus damage" without actually saying as much. 3) Increased the power of the feat (3 to 1 up to 4 to 1). Now, again, I have only conjecture, but I don't know, it seems like pretty sound logic. You sort of have RAW, but again, I say sort of becuase I'm not sure that an example can count as RAW.
narack 04-10-08, 07:43 AM	Wow that +100% isn't similar to the Leap attack i have in front of me. The one i read right now say that your power attack give 3 damage per attack point instead . Not X2 (+100%). 1 hand weapon normal trade 1 att = 1 damage 1 hand weapon leap trade 1 att = 3 damage 2 hand weapon normal trade 1 att = 2 damage 2 hand weapon leap trade 1 att = 3 damage yes for 1 hand weapon it's 100% but 2hand is equal to 50% only. And i wasn't able to find the errata
Tordak 04-10-08, 09:18 AM	If you want to be really ****, you could notice that combat brute requires power attack on the first round to set up the momentum swing manouver, but on the round where you benefit from it you don't actually use power attack, as the feat is worded; you are actually using momentum swing, which gives you a different trading ratio, namely penalty x 1 1/2 for one handed, penalty x3 for two handed. That's a 50% increase over the power attack trade. Yet it would not work with leap attack, cause leap attack uses power attack, while the momentum swing is combat brute feat. The 2 are not compatible, and would not stack as Rinser noted. But that's splitting hair. Everyone came to the conclusion that the bonus you get from Combat Brute (momentum swing) is in fact derived from power attack. That said, leap attack, as it is formulated now in the errata (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)), add 100% to your normal power attack damage. But what is normal? With a 2 hander, I would say is twice the penalty to your AB, but then again this is arguable because it is in the 'special' section. Yet I feel that 1-to-2 is the normal AB-to-Damage trade off for a 2-handed weapon using power attack feat from the way the feat is worded. This means that you leap would add 2x your penalty, for a total of 4x. Now combat brute, if it does stack, should add 50% to your normal power attack damage (as I said earlier, if it is actually from power attack) to account for the x1 1/2 - x3. That still comes to 2x from normal 2-handed power attack + 100% 2x from leap + 50% 2x from momentum swing = 2x + 2x + 1x = 5x, where of course x is the absolute value of the penalty you take. PS : I quickly read combat brute this morning, so I might have missread, but I think it said you use power attack when you charge in the first round, not in the second round, which is where my point came from. Anyway, I love combat brute :)
Tordak 04-10-08, 09:22 AM	Wow that +100% isn't similar to the Leap attack i have in front of me. The one i read right now say that your power attack give 3 damage per attack point instead . Not X2 (+100%). 1 hand weapon normal trade 1 att = 1 damage 1 hand weapon leap trade 1 att = 3 damage 2 hand weapon normal trade 1 att = 2 damage 2 hand weapon leap trade 1 att = 3 damage yes for 1 hand weapon it's 100% but 2hand is equal to 50% only. And i wasn't able to find the errata You might have misread Leap Attack, it's 2x for 1-handed, 3x for 2-handed in it's original version in the Complete Adventurer. As I said in my post above, it's been errated (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)).
narack 04-10-08, 12:39 PM	You might have misread Leap Attack, it's 2x for 1-handed, 3x for 2-handed in it's original version in the Complete Adventurer. As I said in my post above, it's been errated (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)). ha thnx with that correction it's more clear. 1h : 1 att = 2 dmg, 2h 1 att = 4 dmg
risner 04-10-08, 07:08 PM	@ risner: Leap Attack was errata'd to be an additive percentage (ie, +100%). I know that, I use the errata in my calculation in the prior post. I guess you pointed it out because you didn't think I knew based on my post? The problem is the errata's meaning is debated. So it may be that we differ in the meaning of +100% normal and what normal means? In other words does normal mean 1x or 2x?
NoldorForce 04-10-08, 11:36 PM	I know that, I use the errata in my calculation in the prior post. I guess you pointed it out because you didn't think I knew based on my post? The problem is the errata's meaning is debated. So it may be that we differ in the meaning of +100% normal and what normal means? In other words does normal mean 1x or 2x?Neither, strictly speaking, because Power Attack on its own doesn't use multipliers. "Normal" refers to whatever the current ratio is, as defined by the Frenzied Berserker errata that I've quoted above. That's 1-to-1 for one-handers, 1-to-2 for two-handers, and 1-to-3 for two-handers with Combat Brute.
mplindustries 04-11-08, 03:57 AM	Neither, strictly speaking, because Power Attack on its own doesn't use multipliers. "Normal" refers to whatever the current ratio is, as defined by the Frenzied Berserker errata that I've quoted above. That's 1-to-1 for one-handers, 1-to-2 for two-handers, and 1-to-3 for two-handers with Combat Brute.I find it odd you didn't even respond to my concerns on the examples and errata. Regardless, I don't know how you can say Combat Brute is not a multiplier, because it very clearly uses a multiplication symbol right in its description. I can sort of see how it could count the 1 to 2 ratio as "normal" for a two-handed weapon (I still don't think its right, I just see how it could), but I just can't see a way for Combat Brute to be considered "normal."
Tordak 04-11-08, 07:14 AM	First I apologise for my previous post, I was wrong (or I was right depending on which part you read); I have misread combat brute, you do use PA on the second round. mplindustries, you're right about the combat brute part, the 1-to-3 ration is not the normal power attack. I think the errata for leap attack was design with that in mind. Everything else still old. I understand mplindustries point on the +100% for PA with 2-handed, and the confusion rinser brought up with the leap attack errata about normal damage. I still think though, from the way power attack reads, that 2-handed normal PA trade off is 1-to-2 ratio; this is the base ('normal') trade off for 2-handed. DMs are of course free to rule either way. But combat brute modifies the PA trade-off : you don't apply the 'normal' one anymore, you apply the momentum swing PA trade off.