question about opposed spot check when sniping [Archive] - Wizards Community

question about opposed spot check when sniping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Longarms
04-27-07, 01:51 AM Okay, a character making a ranged attack from hiding can use a move action to remain hidden. The move action takes a -20 penalty and is opposed by spot checks of every opponent that could see him. Please verify whether I explained this correctly.

My question is, what happens when only a subset of the opponents succeed on their opposed spot check? Are you still hidden from the point of view of the remaining opponents who failed their spot checks?

Furthermroe, the recently released skill tricks included a trick called point it out. My reading of this skill trick implied to me that a normal person cannot point out to an ally what they spotted... which makes the above question even more important, I think.
Tsuul
04-27-07, 02:37 AM Are you still hidden from the point of view of the remaining opponents who failed their spot checks?Yes

I don't know anything about skill tricks.
Deep Blue 9000
04-27-07, 05:00 AM Yes to your first question. Some opponents see you, some don't.

With this skill trick an opponent could let one of his friends get another roll, there's no reason this particular use of the skill trick wouldn't work.
tarkin
04-27-07, 11:15 AM Yes.

Keep in mind that hiding is NOT equal total concealment.

Total concealment obviates the need for a hide check, they can't see you no matter what.

In effect, think of it as wearing camoflage. Some people may see you, while their buddies don't.
Longarms
04-28-07, 02:13 AM "In effect, think of it as wearing camoflage. Some people may see you, while their buddies don't."

So what kind of action is needed for one guy to point you out to his buddies?? Free action, standard action, full action?

And can his friends automatically spot you after the pointing, or do they just get a free spot check with a +2 or something???
j3st3r
04-28-07, 02:24 AM Once the cover is blown, I don't think that the one hiding would continue to stay hidden. Rather he's going to start attacking or flees for his life. Pointing out to others that there's someone hiding in certain direction is probably a free action:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Longarms
04-28-07, 05:20 PM "Point It Out: When you make a successful Spot check, you can spend an immediate action to grant a single ally a free Spot check to see the same thing (with a +2 circumstance bonus). Your ally must be within 30 feet of you and able to see or hear you to benefit from this effect."

I think the existance of this skill trick should be brought into the analysis. Although this skill trick is part of the RAW, one must assume that the skill trick was supposed to give a PC MORE ability than he already has under RAW. In that way, it tells you something about RAW.

Does this change anyone's view? I don't feel like a consenus has been reached, so it would be nice if we could get some more responses.
Tsuul
04-29-07, 02:22 AM It tells me that normally you can't help a friend out when the party gets surprised and you are not.

"Point it out" helps do just that.

Again, I don't know anything about skill tricks. What resources are you expending to gain that effect? Is it free, a feat, skill ranks, something else? If it's free, I don't think I like it. :P
ScipioX
04-29-07, 03:53 PM Normally, you can point things out as a free action. However, it would simply encourage your ally to take a move action to spot on his next turn.

The advantage of the skill trick is that your ally gets a free spot check.
Longarms
04-29-07, 07:57 PM "Normally, you can point things out as a free action. However, it would simply encourage your ally to take a move action to spot on his next turn."

If I understand things right, sniping might be better than I used to think. So a sniper that is spotted by half has opponents during his re-hide, and then at least one of his opponents does not spot him with their next spot check, the next turn the sniper can make a sneak attack* against that creature that still hasn't spotted him???:confused:

* In this example I am assuming that none of the monsters choose to attack the sniper during their turn.
Tsuul
04-30-07, 01:16 AM So a sniper that is spotted by half has opponents during his re-hide, and then at least one of his opponents does not spot him with their next spot check, the next turn the sniper can make a sneak attack* against that creature that still hasn't spotted him???Sure, but how do you know which one didn't spot you?
If I am an archer and don't see a sniper but one of my friends points to some bushes and yells "He's over there" I'll point my bow in that direction while I look for him; whether or not my subsequent spots are successful. If I have a sword, I'm going to bring it up into a defensive position instinctively while I look.

Getting out of Dodge (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990104) is probably the best idea when you hear that someone sees you.
Clearly_Toughpick
04-30-07, 01:17 PM Sure, but how do you know which one didn't spot you?

With a spot check of course!

But seriously, without Point it out, I would rule that if your ally spots an enemy hiding the following would happen...
1. your ally can shout a short sentence (like "he's in those bushes") as a free action.
2. you don't get to act on this information until your turn when you must make a move action to look for the enemy; I would give you a +2 circumstance bonus for the information from your ally, and I might even allow you to add your ally's Cha modifier too (to represent their ability to get your attention and to transmit the information in a way that you can make use of it).

Now this could go further...
3. if you still fail to spot the enemy, your ally can in turn take a move action to tell you more about the enemy's position - assuming it's worth his while (e.g. a spell caster out of spells telling an archer where to shoot);
4. on your turn you get to use this information and add the bonuses to your spot check as above, plus you can add your ally's Int bonus (to represent their ability to give a concise but precise description).

After that, the DM decides.

Have I gone too far?
tyrecian
04-30-07, 08:19 PM so you could snipe (-20) and if you failed to hide, and everyone knew where you were (let's say you have killed the people who could not see you) then you could bluff (assuming success) and attempt to hide again (albeit only 1' per rank from where you were hidden before, and take a -10 on this hide.

now you can snipe again, as though you were completely hidden?

So that out of spells wizard better be spottin' and sensin' some motives too.

assuming you can do all this before your party waxes whatever is out there.
Longarms
05-01-07, 01:04 AM I guess my point is you can shoot someone for sneak attack damage one round, and as long as you didn't get spotted by everybody or attacked by anybody during your -20 sniping rehinde, next round you could get another sneak attack on a person that failed their spot check.

If one or two monsters spend their turn trying to spot you, great. They just missed their full attack. And if you have decent hide skill, at least one of them will still fail letting you do another SA anyway.

Is this right?
tyrecian
05-01-07, 07:12 PM yeah

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Longarms 04-27-07, 01:51 AM	Okay, a character making a ranged attack from hiding can use a move action to remain hidden. The move action takes a -20 penalty and is opposed by spot checks of every opponent that could see him. Please verify whether I explained this correctly. My question is, what happens when only a subset of the opponents succeed on their opposed spot check? Are you still hidden from the point of view of the remaining opponents who failed their spot checks? Furthermroe, the recently released skill tricks included a trick called point it out. My reading of this skill trick implied to me that a normal person cannot point out to an ally what they spotted... which makes the above question even more important, I think.
Tsuul 04-27-07, 02:37 AM	Are you still hidden from the point of view of the remaining opponents who failed their spot checks?Yes I don't know anything about skill tricks.
Deep Blue 9000 04-27-07, 05:00 AM	Yes to your first question. Some opponents see you, some don't. With this skill trick an opponent could let one of his friends get another roll, there's no reason this particular use of the skill trick wouldn't work.
tarkin 04-27-07, 11:15 AM	Yes. Keep in mind that hiding is NOT equal total concealment. Total concealment obviates the need for a hide check, they can't see you no matter what. In effect, think of it as wearing camoflage. Some people may see you, while their buddies don't.
Longarms 04-28-07, 02:13 AM	"In effect, think of it as wearing camoflage. Some people may see you, while their buddies don't." So what kind of action is needed for one guy to point you out to his buddies?? Free action, standard action, full action? And can his friends automatically spot you after the pointing, or do they just get a free spot check with a +2 or something???
j3st3r 04-28-07, 02:24 AM	Once the cover is blown, I don't think that the one hiding would continue to stay hidden. Rather he's going to start attacking or flees for his life. Pointing out to others that there's someone hiding in certain direction is probably a free action: Speak In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
Longarms 04-28-07, 05:20 PM	"Point It Out: When you make a successful Spot check, you can spend an immediate action to grant a single ally a free Spot check to see the same thing (with a +2 circumstance bonus). Your ally must be within 30 feet of you and able to see or hear you to benefit from this effect." I think the existance of this skill trick should be brought into the analysis. Although this skill trick is part of the RAW, one must assume that the skill trick was supposed to give a PC MORE ability than he already has under RAW. In that way, it tells you something about RAW. Does this change anyone's view? I don't feel like a consenus has been reached, so it would be nice if we could get some more responses.
Tsuul 04-29-07, 02:22 AM	It tells me that normally you can't help a friend out when the party gets surprised and you are not. "Point it out" helps do just that. Again, I don't know anything about skill tricks. What resources are you expending to gain that effect? Is it free, a feat, skill ranks, something else? If it's free, I don't think I like it. :P
ScipioX 04-29-07, 03:53 PM	Normally, you can point things out as a free action. However, it would simply encourage your ally to take a move action to spot on his next turn. The advantage of the skill trick is that your ally gets a free spot check.
Longarms 04-29-07, 07:57 PM	"Normally, you can point things out as a free action. However, it would simply encourage your ally to take a move action to spot on his next turn." If I understand things right, sniping might be better than I used to think. So a sniper that is spotted by half has opponents during his re-hide, and then at least one of his opponents does not spot him with their next spot check, the next turn the sniper can make a sneak attack* against that creature that still hasn't spotted him???:confused: * In this example I am assuming that none of the monsters choose to attack the sniper during their turn.
Tsuul 04-30-07, 01:16 AM	So a sniper that is spotted by half has opponents during his re-hide, and then at least one of his opponents does not spot him with their next spot check, the next turn the sniper can make a sneak attack* against that creature that still hasn't spotted him???Sure, but how do you know which one didn't spot you? If I am an archer and don't see a sniper but one of my friends points to some bushes and yells "He's over there" I'll point my bow in that direction while I look for him; whether or not my subsequent spots are successful. If I have a sword, I'm going to bring it up into a defensive position instinctively while I look. Getting out of Dodge (http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990104) is probably the best idea when you hear that someone sees you.
Clearly_Toughpick 04-30-07, 01:17 PM	Sure, but how do you know which one didn't spot you? With a spot check of course! But seriously, without Point it out, I would rule that if your ally spots an enemy hiding the following would happen... 1. your ally can shout a short sentence (like "he's in those bushes") as a free action. 2. you don't get to act on this information until your turn when you must make a move action to look for the enemy; I would give you a +2 circumstance bonus for the information from your ally, and I might even allow you to add your ally's Cha modifier too (to represent their ability to get your attention and to transmit the information in a way that you can make use of it). Now this could go further... 3. if you still fail to spot the enemy, your ally can in turn take a move action to tell you more about the enemy's position - assuming it's worth his while (e.g. a spell caster out of spells telling an archer where to shoot); 4. on your turn you get to use this information and add the bonuses to your spot check as above, plus you can add your ally's Int bonus (to represent their ability to give a concise but precise description). After that, the DM decides. Have I gone too far?
tyrecian 04-30-07, 08:19 PM	so you could snipe (-20) and if you failed to hide, and everyone knew where you were (let's say you have killed the people who could not see you) then you could bluff (assuming success) and attempt to hide again (albeit only 1' per rank from where you were hidden before, and take a -10 on this hide. now you can snipe again, as though you were completely hidden? So that out of spells wizard better be spottin' and sensin' some motives too. assuming you can do all this before your party waxes whatever is out there.
Longarms 05-01-07, 01:04 AM	I guess my point is you can shoot someone for sneak attack damage one round, and as long as you didn't get spotted by everybody or attacked by anybody during your -20 sniping rehinde, next round you could get another sneak attack on a person that failed their spot check. If one or two monsters spend their turn trying to spot you, great. They just missed their full attack. And if you have decent hide skill, at least one of them will still fail letting you do another SA anyway. Is this right?
tyrecian 05-01-07, 07:12 PM	yeah