Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rastar 04-17-07, 05:59 PM	I have never understood the benefit of sundering a weapon. None of my players use it and probably never will. My question is mainly from the side that giants have the Improved Sunder feat which would be great except as I read the DM guide on page 222, a magic weapon or shield can only be damaged by one of epual or greater enchantment. That being said most players that are fighting giants carry a magic weapon while most giants dont. So, where is the benefit for the giants and thier feat. All I can see is that when they attempt to sunder their merely waste attacks most of the time being unable to succeed in sundering. If I have read this wrong or if anyone has any insight I would greatly appreciate it.
tyrecian 04-17-07, 06:11 PM	Never saw that rule before, great to know. Since you can't sunder armor, then it makes it a rough rule against the sunderers. I guess they would simply not use the sunder option. However, sunder can do lots of things, among them sunder a casting component pouch, making the wizzie hurt. That is just a crazy ruling from the DMG, glad you found that =)
ZocckCastlestorm 04-17-07, 06:19 PM	You can always Sunder that pain-giving Wand of (Fireball or Lightning Bolt ECT) ! The Wand has what, 5 Hardness & 5 HP's? The Giant's will destroy the Wands easily. Similarly easy will be a Scroll being Held/Used. Holy Symbols too.
Nephlite 04-17-07, 06:26 PM	I have never understood the benefit of sundering a weapon. None of my players use it and probably never will. My question is mainly from the side that giants have the Improved Sunder feat which would be great except as I read the DM guide on page 222, a magic weapon or shield can only be damaged by one of epual or greater enchantment. That being said most players that are fighting giants carry a magic weapon while most giants dont. So, where is the benefit for the giants and thier feat. All I can see is that when they attempt to sunder their merely waste attacks most of the time being unable to succeed in sundering. If I have read this wrong or if anyone has any insight I would greatly appreciate it. They errated that: You can sunder with non-magical stuff magic weapons. Now magic weapons just gain a bonus to hps/hardness. Check the errata.
Qwicksilver 04-17-07, 06:35 PM	In one very specific case, sunder is good: you could sunder the heads of a hydra. Of course that makes sunder only useful if you live in a world with gigantic armies of Hydras marching up and down the hills and valleys.
StevenO 04-17-07, 07:57 PM	I've always viewed Sunder as the strong man's form of Disarm; both intend to remove a weapon (or other item) from a target. If properly equiped (an adamantine weapon) Sundering weapons isn't really that difficult and unlike disarm you remove the item from the encounter. Its biggest drawback is the destruction of "treasure" but that can be compensated for or you can allow a sundered item to be repaired at full base price. When I run Sunders I consider a "sundered" item to be useless but it can be repaired at the cost of a masterwork item which will restore any magical properties it has. The enchantment level on an item is no longer a factor in what can be sundered. It is in the 3.5 material simply because someone forgot to remove it (see the light lance for another example).
SmilinBandit 04-17-07, 08:27 PM	There are some other uses for sundering if you get the right feats (to overcome hardness and for sunder damage boni). Bust through doors and walls and stuff like that. Not the mightiest combat strategy, but it can be quite entertaining (Destructive Rage Barbarian in a bar brawl, sundering the desk of an unwilling magistrate with your bare fist [intimidate check anyone?]... ah good times ;) ) I just checked my PHB on sundering items and I think its time for a little rant. There are rules for striking shields and weapons (errated as noted above to let you sunder magical weapons/shields), sweet. Then there are rules for sundering carried or "worn" objects (with an indirect example of being able to damage or destroy, for example, cloaks or googles. Or as noted above wands!) and a list with hardness/HP of weapons, shields and ... armor! Sweet I think, it would be cool to sunder holes in the evil clerics fullplate so that your friends can hit him more easily. It would even make sense (well for me anyways :D ), you trade an attack to deal damage against the possibility of lowering your enemies AC. But in the very last sentence... "You canīt sunder armor worn by another character"... :weep: ... Why, oh why ?! You can sunder his cloak, googles, vest, his magic pants, a tiny little ring on his hand (using your greatsword... without hurting your foe :rolleyes: ), his boots... just everything! You can sunder your own armor ("...worn by ANOTHER character..."), but you canīt sunder HIS armor... :banghead: Disintigrate? Sure fine! Sunder a suit of armor while worn by another person?! Hell no, totally -(insert "unrealistic/overpowered/gamebreaking because off..." here)- !!! Sorry but I had to say it, please donīt be angry with me :hides:
rastar 04-17-07, 09:24 PM	Thanks for the tip on the errata. I looked that up and have a whole new outlook on giants ability to sunder. Just a couple more questions, each +1 of enchantment I would assume counts for abilities like flaming or icy too. Also, what about a Kensi signature weapons abilities granted at each level. Any more input is greatly appreciated and thanks again.
runestar 04-17-07, 10:11 PM	Thanks for the tip on the errata. I looked that up and have a whole new outlook on giants ability to sunder. Just a couple more questions, each +1 of enchantment I would assume counts for abilities like flaming or icy too. No, only a weapon's actual enhancement bonus adds to its hp and toughness. A +1 vorpal weapon is no harder to sunder than a +1 weapon. There is also a weapon property in champions of ruin which gives you a free cleave attack if you make a successful sunder attempt. Quite useful for monsters with high str. Charge+power attack, sunder the fighter's weapon, then cleave him.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-17-07, 11:56 PM	Try this combo: Human/Fighter:10 STR:16(2 Increases)+ 2 Gauntlets(18 Total)/DEX:13/CON:14/INT:13/WIS:13/CHA:9 = 28 Build Points Power Attack:LvL 1 Improved Bull Rush:Ftr 1 Combat Focus:Human Improved Sunder:Ftr 2 Improved Initiative:LvL 3 Dodge:Ftr 4 Combat Brute:LvL 6 Shock Trooper:Ftr 6 Combat Defense:Ftr 8 Combat Vigor:LvL 9 Leap Attack:Ftr 10 Gear: Fullplate+2,Ring of Prot+2,Gauntlets of Ogre Power,Greatsword+1& Flaming,Longbow+1,Cloak of Protection+1,Quiver of Ehlonna, Potions of Cure Moderate (3rd Level/300GP Each)[x 10],Ring of Jumping+5, Imagine the possibilities: Initiaties a (Leaping Attack) Charge,& that qualifies it for Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge maneuver.He uses +5 BAB on Power Attack. The Attack will hit, because the whole penalty is in AC now, not Attack Bonus.He will Strike for 2D6(Base) + 6(STR w/2-Handed) + 15Leap Attack Power Attack Multiplier w/ 2-Handed (X 3) + 1 Magic + 1D6 (Fire) = Average of 7+6+15+1+3(Rounding Down)=32 HP's, and that's average...and only Round 1. Having Charged his foe, the Fighter now gets to qualify for Combat Brute's maneuver: Momentum Swing: The set-up is very much like the one above, except the Attack Roll is lowered from the Power Attack ( -5 Minimum). On the other hand, the Damage Bonuses & Attack Penalties last the whole Round, letting our Hero get in 2 Attacks (+ 10 BAB). The First time he hits also triggers Combat Focus/Defense/Vigor(Fast Heal 4 HP's/Round for 12 Rounds= up to 48 HP's self Healed before Potions) On Round 3 he can use Sundering Cleave (Combat Brute maneuver...)
penchant 04-18-07, 02:35 AM	that errata changes things quite a bit. Each +1 enhancement bonus add +2 to Hardness and +10 hitpoints for both shields and weapons! Not so easy any more. That severely reduces the "I cut your sword in half with one blow" scenario.
Leilond 04-18-07, 06:37 AM	If you're aren't interested in the "treasure you're sundering", a fighter with an adamantium two handed sword (ignore hardnes less than 20) can make a DM mad, because each round you're going to see a weapon destroyed
runestar 04-18-07, 06:52 AM	If you are fighting mostly MM monsters, you should be able to sunder their weapons with a peace of mind, since they tend to be using mostly mundane gear, even at higher lvs.:) Plus, given their wealth guidelines, it is unlikely they will be able to afford anything fancy. Though oil of greater magic weapon+5 is just 3000gp...:P
Ratchet 04-18-07, 06:52 AM	"Sundering Cleave" which you gain from the Tactical Feat "Combat Brute" (CW) is pretty useful for a fighter kitted out with a Adamantine greatsword. Whenever the fighter successfully sunders his oppenents weapon, he gets a free attack against the (ex)weilder.
runestar 04-18-07, 06:59 AM	I have a query about sundering cleave. In champions of ruin, there is a weapon property called doomstrike which does a similar thing(gives you an extra attack contingent on successfully sundering an opponent's weapon). If I wield a doomstrike weapon and have the combat brute feat, do I get to make 2 attacks at an opponent if I manage to sunder his weapon?:eek:
Kradlo 04-18-07, 07:25 AM	I have a query about sundering cleave. In champions of ruin, there is a weapon property called doomstrike which does a similar thing(gives you an extra attack contingent on successfully sundering an opponent's weapon). If I wield a doomstrike weapon and have the combat brute feat, do I get to make 2 attacks at an opponent if I manage to sunder his weapon?:eek: I'd have to say no. Either of these will grant an extra attack (similar to Cleave), but you don't get two extra attacks, just as you don't get your sneak attack damage twice with Telling Blow (PHB II) with a critical hit while flanking.
Southernskies 04-18-07, 09:50 AM	If you want to get really ugly, Sundering Cleave doesn't have a limit to its use per round. Against a TWF or multiple armed attacker, that could be several destroyed weapon in a single round (and an attack against the foe). And if your GM is really nice and allows the argument that a Hydra's heads (or a giant octopus' arms) are "weapons" for the feat, the combat can be over in a single standard action. 1 charge, 7 pyro-hydra heads (out of 11). Had to take out the rest of the heads the following round, but with a full attack, they didn't last long.
ZocckCastlestorm 04-18-07, 04:48 PM	I have a query about sundering cleave. In champions of ruin, there is a weapon property called doomstrike which does a similar thing(gives you an extra attack contingent on successfully sundering an opponent's weapon). If I wield a doomstrike weapon and have the combat brute feat, do I get to make 2 attacks at an opponent if I manage to sunder his weapon?:eek: I agree with Kradlo! There is no stacking of effects that are basically the same type-Just as you cannot use TWF & Cleave for each hand(Of course I could be wrong on that one, but I doubt it). Although synergy's between some Feats may be another matter, I feel that you would get one one extra Attack.
runestar 04-18-07, 09:33 PM	Fair enough. It did seem too good to be true...:P