Question on CR checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question on CR checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kludar
06-12-07, 07:01 PM Hey All. I am slowly working my way into the world of DMing, but there are a lot of things I still don't quite understand. One question I have pertains to skill checks. I will give you a scenario...

I have 2 commoners in a tavern who are scared to death of something they saw yesterday. My adventurers want to figure out what it is, but the commoners are too scared to trust strangers. The way I plan for my players to discover what is wrong is to have whoever has the most charisma try and talk to them. At this point, I assume I would have the player talking roll something and add his Cha modifier.

What I want to know is, what does the player roll, 1d20? and then add his cha modifier?

And then, what do i roll as the DM for the commoner? I figure I would give the commoner a -2 modifier since he is scared and doesn't trust the strangers.

If someone can fill in the blanks for me, I would appreciate it. For the record, I do have a DM book, players book, and MM. I've been pouring over them for 3 days now, but still have some nagging questions. Thanks a ton for the help!
Ezurus
06-12-07, 07:08 PM This would be a perfect application for the Diplomacy skill. See PHB pg. 71. At the bottom of the page 72 is a table of NPC attitudes. What you described sounds a lot like Unfriendly, and the PC would try to move them over to Friendly, or at least indiferent. Maybe since they aren't so unfriendly but rather scared you can put them between unfriendly and indifferent by making it a DC 20 to make friendly and DC 10 or 12 to make them indiferent.
Nephlite
06-12-07, 07:10 PM What I want to know is, what does the player roll, 1d20? and then add his cha modifier?

Gather Info is 1d20 + Gather check mod (how many skill points) + Cha if you mean this.
YOu set a DC they need to reach.

You can also do opposed rolls with diplomacy...
If they win, the Player hear the news

And then, what do i roll as the DM for the commoner? I figure I would give the commoner a -2 modifier since he is scared and doesn't trust the strangers.

So you want diplomacy. Um, no, if you don't want the players to know:
Gather Info: increase DC required by 2

Diplomacy: increase the check the commers roll by 2

If someone can fill in the blanks for me, I would appreciate it. For the record, I do have a DM book, players book, and MM. I've been pouring over them for 3 days now, but still have some nagging questions. Thanks a ton for the help!
Depends what you want.
Kludar
06-12-07, 07:36 PM Alrighty, I was looking at the Influencing NPC Attitudes on p. 72. There is another scenario that I am curious about...

The bartender for my tavern has had some bad dealings with dwarves lately, so he is going to be unfriendly towards the dwarf player in my game.

So lets say the dwarf approaches the barkeeper and asks for information. The first thing to figure in is the fact that the barkeeper is unfriendly to the dwarf, so a 15 would need to be achieved (according to the table.) for the barkeeper to treat him indifferently.

Now lets say the dwarf has no special diplomacy skills, but has a Cha modifier of -1.

I would then assume that for the barkeeper to percieve the dwarf as even indifferent, the dwarf will need to roll a 16 or better.

Now, lets say the dwarf rolls a 16, and now the bartender treats him indifferently. Can the player then talk to the bartender again, roll again, and try to obtain another 16, which would then consider him as friendly?

Sorry if I am just not grasping things well. It's hard to transfer things written in the book, to an active scenario. I appreciate the help.
Ezurus
06-12-07, 09:17 PM In this sort of situation, you would approach it as simple role-playing. The Bartender should just be played with his attitude towards Dwarves. If the PC tries to convince him that he's not so bad, have him roll a diplomacy check. If he gets a total of 15 or higher, it worked, but if he gets less than 5 the bartender will turn hostile. Usually you can't make another check, according to the skill description. Now if your Dwarf does extra things to win the barkeep's favor, perhaps you can give him a circumstancial bonus to his check. Say he buys a 2 Sp Ale and lays down 1 Gp and says "keep the change good sir" That might be worth a +2 or something.
Kludar
06-12-07, 09:26 PM Thanks a ton Ezurus. That is pretty much how i had it figured in my head, but having someone explain it makes things much clearer for me.
Ezurus
06-12-07, 09:27 PM It's important to note that it is the player, not you as the DM that causes this Diplomacy check. Basically, whenever the PCs try to convince an NPC to do something or not do something (like share information, treat them nicer, not kill them, etc.) you should decide what the NPC's attitude is and have the PCs make a diplomacy check. Maybe the PC would rather just let the barkeep be. Maybe he would like to take on a hostile attitude in return (Dwarves aren't always big on settling things peacefully). So you shouldn't compel them to make a Diplomacy check. If they overtly do something to offend an NPC, that may change their attitude without any checks necessary.

NPC (Unfriendly): "Watch yerself dwarf, I don't trust your kind any farther then I kin throw um!"

PC: Spits in his face "An I say the only good Humans' a Deadn'!"

NPC (Now Hostile): Grabs club from under bar "Git outa 'ere afore I give ye wat's fer ya dirty rock humper!"
Nom
06-12-07, 10:19 PM Gather Info is 1d20 + Gather check mod (how many skill points) + Cha if you mean this.Gather info isn't the appropriate check here. Gather info is used when you are scouring the town for rumours or the like. Attempting to get specific information from a specific individual is Diplomacy (or Intimidate).
Kouk
06-13-07, 05:41 AM The way I plan for my players to discover what is wrong is to have whoever has the most charisma try and talk to them.

Perhaps you mis-typed, but you shouldn't plan on, or, expect your players to do anything in particular. All you can do is consider possible actions on their part, and the results of those actions.

Players will constantly surprise you in their (in)ability to accomplish goals you set for them. While you or I might figure on the PCs gently coaxing the needed information from the frightened NPCs, there is really no guarantee they will not

A. Attempt to Intimidate the information out of them
B. Follow them home and torture the information out of them
C. Give up when their questions are not immediately answered
D. Never talk to them in the first place
E. Something you could never have expected will happen, like they kill the NPC for fun, along with the rest of the tavern patrons

You should always consider alternate ways of finding adventure hooks, in case the obvious one fails. Perhaps they "overhear" other townsfolk talking about how the two men are acting strangely since their trip to the forest, which gets the PCs to the tavern. Perhaps the negotiations with the men fail, but the party can do some kind of favor for the scared commoners to get them to open up. Maybe they can just bribe the men to make it worth their while to spill the beans.

There should also be some other way into the adventure that does not rely on the two commoners at all.

You should always be (mentally) prepared to change your plans, or adjust to any new situations you are presented with. Even if you know the players' personalities well, and can predict their behavior, you may not be able to predict the the characters' personalities or behavior. Even if you could know exactly how any given player would act, just being in a cooperative group gives rise to different modes of behavior or actions, as they work and decide things together (or decide things separately and work on their own).

For talking directly to the NPCs about whatever scared them, you could tell them on successful Diplomacy checks ("You can tell us, we want to help you"), Bluff checks ("We were hired to investigate suspicious happenings around here, would you happen to know anything?"), or Intimidate checks ("Tell us, or we start breaking fingers").

To find the men in the first place, they could use a Gather Information check to learn that "Two men in the tavern are acting jumpy since yesterday". Or, they could just roleplay conversations with the barkeep and the conversation just "drifts" over to talking about the commoners you want the party to talk to, no checks required.

With the dwarf and the tavernkeeper, odds are the dwarf won't even want to do talking on his own. Usually the party has a "face", one person who handles the talking because he is more charismatic or trained in the social skills, or even just the only one who is interested in dealing with NPCs. If this happens to be the dwarf, then just RP the initial hostility (odds are the dwarf won't give a damn without an obvious insult), and only attempt skill checks if the dwarf PC actively tries to "get something" from the NPC. If the dwarf tries to smooth things over, it would probably be a Diplomacy check. If the dwarf tries to insult the barkeep, odds are no check would be required, unless he does it in a very obtuse or sarcastic way and there is a chance the barkeep won't understand that it is an insult (Sense Motive: "I think that was an insult", or INT check, "Hey, don't you insult me!" as you determine).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kludar 06-12-07, 07:01 PM	Hey All. I am slowly working my way into the world of DMing, but there are a lot of things I still don't quite understand. One question I have pertains to skill checks. I will give you a scenario... I have 2 commoners in a tavern who are scared to death of something they saw yesterday. My adventurers want to figure out what it is, but the commoners are too scared to trust strangers. The way I plan for my players to discover what is wrong is to have whoever has the most charisma try and talk to them. At this point, I assume I would have the player talking roll something and add his Cha modifier. What I want to know is, what does the player roll, 1d20? and then add his cha modifier? And then, what do i roll as the DM for the commoner? I figure I would give the commoner a -2 modifier since he is scared and doesn't trust the strangers. If someone can fill in the blanks for me, I would appreciate it. For the record, I do have a DM book, players book, and MM. I've been pouring over them for 3 days now, but still have some nagging questions. Thanks a ton for the help!
Ezurus 06-12-07, 07:08 PM	This would be a perfect application for the Diplomacy skill. See PHB pg. 71. At the bottom of the page 72 is a table of NPC attitudes. What you described sounds a lot like Unfriendly, and the PC would try to move them over to Friendly, or at least indiferent. Maybe since they aren't so unfriendly but rather scared you can put them between unfriendly and indifferent by making it a DC 20 to make friendly and DC 10 or 12 to make them indiferent.
Nephlite 06-12-07, 07:10 PM	What I want to know is, what does the player roll, 1d20? and then add his cha modifier? Gather Info is 1d20 + Gather check mod (how many skill points) + Cha if you mean this. YOu set a DC they need to reach. You can also do opposed rolls with diplomacy... If they win, the Player hear the news And then, what do i roll as the DM for the commoner? I figure I would give the commoner a -2 modifier since he is scared and doesn't trust the strangers. So you want diplomacy. Um, no, if you don't want the players to know: Gather Info: increase DC required by 2 Diplomacy: increase the check the commers roll by 2 If someone can fill in the blanks for me, I would appreciate it. For the record, I do have a DM book, players book, and MM. I've been pouring over them for 3 days now, but still have some nagging questions. Thanks a ton for the help! Depends what you want.
Kludar 06-12-07, 07:36 PM	Alrighty, I was looking at the Influencing NPC Attitudes on p. 72. There is another scenario that I am curious about... The bartender for my tavern has had some bad dealings with dwarves lately, so he is going to be unfriendly towards the dwarf player in my game. So lets say the dwarf approaches the barkeeper and asks for information. The first thing to figure in is the fact that the barkeeper is unfriendly to the dwarf, so a 15 would need to be achieved (according to the table.) for the barkeeper to treat him indifferently. Now lets say the dwarf has no special diplomacy skills, but has a Cha modifier of -1. I would then assume that for the barkeeper to percieve the dwarf as even indifferent, the dwarf will need to roll a 16 or better. Now, lets say the dwarf rolls a 16, and now the bartender treats him indifferently. Can the player then talk to the bartender again, roll again, and try to obtain another 16, which would then consider him as friendly? Sorry if I am just not grasping things well. It's hard to transfer things written in the book, to an active scenario. I appreciate the help.
Ezurus 06-12-07, 09:17 PM	In this sort of situation, you would approach it as simple role-playing. The Bartender should just be played with his attitude towards Dwarves. If the PC tries to convince him that he's not so bad, have him roll a diplomacy check. If he gets a total of 15 or higher, it worked, but if he gets less than 5 the bartender will turn hostile. Usually you can't make another check, according to the skill description. Now if your Dwarf does extra things to win the barkeep's favor, perhaps you can give him a circumstancial bonus to his check. Say he buys a 2 Sp Ale and lays down 1 Gp and says "keep the change good sir" That might be worth a +2 or something.
Kludar 06-12-07, 09:26 PM	Thanks a ton Ezurus. That is pretty much how i had it figured in my head, but having someone explain it makes things much clearer for me.
Ezurus 06-12-07, 09:27 PM	It's important to note that it is the player, not you as the DM that causes this Diplomacy check. Basically, whenever the PCs try to convince an NPC to do something or not do something (like share information, treat them nicer, not kill them, etc.) you should decide what the NPC's attitude is and have the PCs make a diplomacy check. Maybe the PC would rather just let the barkeep be. Maybe he would like to take on a hostile attitude in return (Dwarves aren't always big on settling things peacefully). So you shouldn't compel them to make a Diplomacy check. If they overtly do something to offend an NPC, that may change their attitude without any checks necessary. NPC (Unfriendly): "Watch yerself dwarf, I don't trust your kind any farther then I kin throw um!" PC: Spits in his face "An I say the only good Humans' a Deadn'!" NPC (Now Hostile): Grabs club from under bar "Git outa 'ere afore I give ye wat's fer ya dirty rock humper!"
Nom 06-12-07, 10:19 PM	Gather Info is 1d20 + Gather check mod (how many skill points) + Cha if you mean this.Gather info isn't the appropriate check here. Gather info is used when you are scouring the town for rumours or the like. Attempting to get specific information from a specific individual is Diplomacy (or Intimidate).
Kouk 06-13-07, 05:41 AM	The way I plan for my players to discover what is wrong is to have whoever has the most charisma try and talk to them. Perhaps you mis-typed, but you shouldn't plan on, or, expect your players to do anything in particular. All you can do is consider possible actions on their part, and the results of those actions. Players will constantly surprise you in their (in)ability to accomplish goals you set for them. While you or I might figure on the PCs gently coaxing the needed information from the frightened NPCs, there is really no guarantee they will not A. Attempt to Intimidate the information out of them B. Follow them home and torture the information out of them C. Give up when their questions are not immediately answered D. Never talk to them in the first place E. Something you could never have expected will happen, like they kill the NPC for fun, along with the rest of the tavern patrons You should always consider alternate ways of finding adventure hooks, in case the obvious one fails. Perhaps they "overhear" other townsfolk talking about how the two men are acting strangely since their trip to the forest, which gets the PCs to the tavern. Perhaps the negotiations with the men fail, but the party can do some kind of favor for the scared commoners to get them to open up. Maybe they can just bribe the men to make it worth their while to spill the beans. There should also be some other way into the adventure that does not rely on the two commoners at all. You should always be (mentally) prepared to change your plans, or adjust to any new situations you are presented with. Even if you know the players' personalities well, and can predict their behavior, you may not be able to predict the the characters' personalities or behavior. Even if you could know exactly how any given player would act, just being in a cooperative group gives rise to different modes of behavior or actions, as they work and decide things together (or decide things separately and work on their own). For talking directly to the NPCs about whatever scared them, you could tell them on successful Diplomacy checks ("You can tell us, we want to help you"), Bluff checks ("We were hired to investigate suspicious happenings around here, would you happen to know anything?"), or Intimidate checks ("Tell us, or we start breaking fingers"). To find the men in the first place, they could use a Gather Information check to learn that "Two men in the tavern are acting jumpy since yesterday". Or, they could just roleplay conversations with the barkeep and the conversation just "drifts" over to talking about the commoners you want the party to talk to, no checks required. With the dwarf and the tavernkeeper, odds are the dwarf won't even want to do talking on his own. Usually the party has a "face", one person who handles the talking because he is more charismatic or trained in the social skills, or even just the only one who is interested in dealing with NPCs. If this happens to be the dwarf, then just RP the initial hostility (odds are the dwarf won't give a damn without an obvious insult), and only attempt skill checks if the dwarf PC actively tries to "get something" from the NPC. If the dwarf tries to smooth things over, it would probably be a Diplomacy check. If the dwarf tries to insult the barkeep, odds are no check would be required, unless he does it in a very obtuse or sarcastic way and there is a chance the barkeep won't understand that it is an insult (Sense Motive: "I think that was an insult", or INT check, "Hey, don't you insult me!" as you determine).