Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johannixx 03-03-07, 02:32 AM	I've long been a fan of the Improved Trip feat, even when 3.5 came along and nerfed the Dex bonus loss from being prone, as well as the Knockdown feat from Sword and Fist. So I was somewhat dismayed when my DM decided to reinterpret the feat's wording. I was wondering if there was a FAQ, Sage or CustServe ruling on this matter: First, some background. My character is a high-strength greatsword fighter. He does not use a tripping weapon, and thus makes all of his trip attempts via unarmed touch attacks. With the IT feat, he provokes no AoOs for doing this, and gains a +4 bonus on trip attempts. This much is agreed upon. This is where it gets fuzzy: My DM says that if I make a trip attack with an unarmed touch attack, my only option for the free attack from the feat is another unarmed strike. Since my character doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, this means he will provoke an AoO every time he uses the feat, and do piddly damage. The DM says if I were to make the trip with a tripping weapon, such as a halberd, then I could make the extra attack with the weapon. Unfortunately, my character concept, feats, and class selection are based on the greatsword, not the halberd. I have always thought that when you successfully trip someone and you have the Improved Trip feat, you could follow up with any form of melee attack you wish. Am I incorrect?
runestar 03-03-07, 02:47 AM	Hmm, very interesting...I think I see where he is getting his interpretation from... IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites. A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats. I suppose the bolded line could be interpreted to mean that the extra attack you get with improved trip must be done with the same attack you made the trip attempt with. I skimmed through the FAQ, and this is the closest thing I could find. The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks. I guess that yes, even if you trip with your unarmed strike, you can still make that extra attack with your greatsword. I think it just means that if you trip successfully, you immediately get the attack back, as though you had not tripped with it, to spend/attack as you deem fit. At least, that was how I ran it...
jaelis 03-03-07, 07:02 AM	Personally, I would be inclined to require the follow up attack to be made with the weapon used to trip, but I'd respect either point of view. I think my own bias comes from two things. First, I picture the extra attack as one that really comes as part of the trip, where you hit the target on the way down. If it's really all part of the same action, I think it needs to be the same weapon. (Compare to cleave... if you drop someone with your armor spikes, can you make the cleave attack with your greatsword? I don't think so.) Second, it makes for some weird interactions with TWF. For example, say you have longsword in your main hand and a sickle in your off hand. You're at the end of a full attack, you're down to your final attack with the sickle. You decide to trip and win. Can you really make a follow up attack with your longsword? That doesn't seem fair, you already made your full complement of attacks with it.
Geogoose 03-03-07, 09:06 AM	Second, it makes for some weird interactions with TWF. For example, say you have longsword in your main hand and a sickle in your off hand. You're at the end of a full attack, you're down to your final attack with the sickle. You decide to trip and win. Can you really make a follow up attack with your longsword? That doesn't seem fair, you already made your full complement of attacks with it. I disagree. The part of your attack routine in that example is your final off-hand weapon attack. The original poster is intending to replace his primary weapon attack with a different primary weapon.
runestar 03-03-07, 09:15 AM	(Compare to cleave... if you drop someone with your armor spikes, can you make the cleave attack with your greatsword? I don't think so.) You can't, but that is because the rules clearly state that you cannot. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Cleave explicitly states that it must be made with the same weapon, so you can't switch weapons. No confusion there.
jaelis 03-03-07, 02:14 PM	You can't, but that is because the rules clearly state that you cannot. Thanks. I guess I (personally) just feel that the Imp Trip attack is the same kind of thing. Yes, even though the feat doesn't have the same language. I disagree. The part of your attack routine in that example is your final off-hand weapon attack. The original poster is intending to replace his primary weapon attack with a different primary weapon. I take it then that you would have no problem letting a character who is holding a sword in his right hand and a dagger in his left make one attack with each if they have a +6 BAB. (Without taking the TWF penalties.) That's fine, but the rules about it aren't very clear. Do you take any penalties on the left hand attack at all? Maybe the -4 "off-hand" penalty mentioned in the glossary? Does that go away if you have the TWF feat? And if you can make primary attacks with an off-hand weapon, does that mean you can make off-hand attacks with a primary weapon? In other words, when you are TWFing, can you freely interchange which weapon takes the TWF penalties? It gets a little confusing. Not that it can't be worked out, but my point is that if you just make a blanket statement that you can use any weapon you have whenever you want, it creates some problems.
paladin2019 03-03-07, 02:31 PM	Reference the two weaon fighting rules.... If you attack off-handed, the off-hand attack takes a -4 to hit and adds only half the Str bonus. In the hypothetical case of a +6 BAB char making the +1 BAB attack with an off-hand weapon, that attack is at a -3 to hit (counting only BAB and off-hand penalty) and adds only half-damage. With Two Weapon Fighting, the same attack does not have the off-hand penalty but it still adds only half the STR bonus. As for trip with a sickle and followup with longsword (or scimitar for better druid flavor ;)), I don't see a problem. For a visual, the sickle hooks the target's leg and pulls him off-balance. As he's on the way down (and suffering from the prone condition according to the rules), the scimitar exploits an as yet unavailable opening and crashes into him, helping his journey to mother earth. D&D combat is an abstraction, not an exact simulation (Phoenix Command has this as it's stated goal, Friday Night Firefight, Millenium's End and Palladium to a much lesser extent.) I say roll with it and create the narrative to fit the results.
jaelis 03-03-07, 03:01 PM	As for trip with a sickle and followup with longsword (or scimitar for better druid flavor ;)), I don't see a problem. For a visual, the sickle hooks the target's leg and pulls him off-balance. As he's on the way down (and suffering from the prone condition according to the rules), the scimitar exploits an as yet unavailable opening and crashes into him, helping his journey to mother earth. So would the follow up attack with the scimitar take a -4 penalty and do only +1/2 Str damage? And how would it work if the druid was actual TWFing with the sickle and scimitar?
paladin2019 03-03-07, 07:36 PM	Scimitar/longsword would attack with the BAB of the trip attack (this is the standard benefit of the feat) and the STR bonus of the appropriate hand. Same with the TWF feat.
jaelis 03-03-07, 07:56 PM	So my fighter 2 with TWF and Imp Trip is holding a bastard sword on the right and sickle on the left. He makes a regular attack with his sword and hits. Then he makes a trip attack with his sickle and succeeds. He then follows up with his sword. So somehow, he has now gotten two attacks with his bastard sword where he could normally only get one. That seems like a heck of a deal... not only do you essentially get the trip for free, but you upgrade your weak off-hand attack to a full strength primary attack. That bothers me a bit, but if you're fine with it, that's no skin off my back. I'm not saying it violates RAW or anything, just that it doesn't seem right to me.
Lazzar 03-03-07, 08:06 PM	You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed Since your unarmed, how can you attak with a waepon anyway?
paladin2019 03-03-07, 08:13 PM	Yep, that's exactly how I see it.
nameneeded 03-04-07, 12:23 AM	Everyone seems to be picturing a hand attack here. What about a sweep? Visually this works much better. Makes more sense for the great sword attack.
runestar 03-04-07, 01:07 AM	Since your unarmed, how can you attak with a waepon anyway? You can be holding a weapon with your hand, and trip with your foot(since unarmed strikes can be designated with any part of your body).:)
Johannixx 03-04-07, 01:19 AM	It's not 'unarmed', it's a melee touch attack. If you have the Improved Trip feat, you don't provoke AoOs for doing such. So, if you want to look at it in a flavor-text fashion, perhaps the character snap-kicks his opponent in the knee, not hard enough to do real damage, but at the right angle to buckle the knee and spill him to the ground. As he falls, the character brings the greatsword down on his opponent.
enderrocksonall 03-08-07, 05:20 PM	You can be holding a weapon with your hand, and trip with your foot(since unarmed strikes can be designated with any part of your body).:) I'm not 100% sure on this but I'm almost certain that only the monk can attack with any part of her body, as that is the only place it is mentioned, in the section describing how a monk can still attack with her hands full. The improved unaramed strike feat doesn't mention feet or knees or elbows.
laughinggranny 03-08-07, 06:03 PM	I'm not 100% sure on this but I'm almost certain that only the monk can attack with any part of her body, as that is the only place it is mentioned, in the section describing how a monk can still attack with her hands full. The improved unarmed strike feat doesn't mention feet or knees or elbows. Disagree, there’s no precedent in the feat as it's written. If it was only fists somewhere in the feat there would be a mention about Fists, but there isn’t such a mention. The feat doesn’t make a mention of a requirement to have empty hands either and I can’t find mention of being unable to make an unarmed attack while wielding a weapon. (Only that if you make an unarmed attack when you don’t have the Improved Feat you garnish an AoO). In regards to the original Question. I don’t see you as "Trading" an off hand attack for a main hand attack. First you must hit your opponent (given this is usually easy) then you must succeed a resisted Strength check) And finally you must again Hit your opponent (given he is prone and you get a +4) I see no reason to not hit him with your 'main hand' receiving your full strength bonus for 3 possibilities of failure to put him in such a condition. EDIT: due to clarity issues my players make their attack at the BAB of the tripping attack and recieve Str bonus of the hand they made the attack with (Main hand, off hand, or 2 handed)
bob_the_great 03-08-07, 07:13 PM	I think this is another example of DM overthinking. This is a game where wizards point their finger and things die, monks run and jump at superhuman levels, and druids transform into animals and he's concerned about what a fighter is doing with his hands. There's no reason why the trip can't be done with your legs. Which makes more sense: you pin your opponent's weapon with yours while you lock a leg behind his and push or you let go of your weapon, bend down in front of someone, and grab their leg? The only time a DM should step in is the above mentioned TWF example, if someone were to trip with their off-hand and follow by attacking with their primary weapon. But that isn't relevant here because the OP is sacrificing an opportunity to attack with his greatsword by tripping, so getting that opportunity back via improved trip accomplishes the same result as if he were tripping with a weapon. Since he's choosing to take a -4 to the Str check for doing an unarmed trip I don't think allowing a follow-up with a greatsword is an issue.