Question: Agile Shield Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question: Agile Shield Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kingfisher
04-09-07, 02:30 AM Am I reading this feat from the PHB II correctly? If I have shield bash, shield spec., shield prof., and this feat, I can make shield bash attacks with nothing more than a -2 penalty on my attacks? That means if I'm a full plate 12 dex fighter, I can be dual wielding with a bastard sword and a spiked heavy steel shield doing 1d10 and 1d8 on an off hand at a -2 penalty for each, where otherwise it would be a -6 and -10 penalty. That is the most ridiculous jump ever for a single feat. Give the shield +1 bashing at the cost of 4,000GP, and you are doing 3d6 for your off hand attack, at a -2 penalty for your attacks, without having to bother with the two-weapon fighting feats whatsoever. This has to be an oversight... shouldn't it mean that the penalty is reduced by by 2?... not that the penalty is automatically brought down to -2?
Banatine
04-10-07, 02:29 PM A heavy spiked shield only does 1D6 damage, so a bashing one will only do 1D10. Unless I have misread the PHB (which is in my hand as i type this).

Either way, I play a duskblade with agile shield fighter, and think its a really good feat. It gives some much needed incentive to use sword and shield again. The reason it isn't overpoweed is that there is no improved ASF, so you will only ever have one attack with that shield. It looks a little overpowered on paper, but really isn't broken.
jaelis
04-10-07, 02:35 PM A spiked heavy shield normally does 1d6. Bashing takes it up to 2d6.

Note that you only get one off-hand attack. It's still pretty good, but at higher levels you'll notice.
Banatine
04-10-07, 02:42 PM You are right, jaelis. I hadn't actually seen the table that shows how size categories change damage. Sorry.
Spikes01k
04-10-07, 03:02 PM A spiked heavy shield normally does 1d6. Bashing takes it up to 2d6.

Note that you only get one off-hand attack. It's still pretty good, but at higher levels you'll notice.

I am sorry to intrude but I don't under stand this statment. I am currently using a sword and shield fighter, please expand.
chitzk0i
04-10-07, 03:14 PM I am sorry to intrude but I don't under stand this statment. I am currently using a sword and shield fighter, please expand.

A spiked heavy shield deals 1d6 damage when used in a shield bash. A shidl with the Bashing enhancement deals damage as if it were two size categories larger. 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6, as per the weapon sizing table in the Equipment chapter of the PHB.

Agile Shield Fighter is an alternative to Two-weapon Fighting for shield bashers that allows you to attack with a weapon and shield with only -2 to each attack, regardless of what shield and weapon are involved. If you tried to use the Two-weapon Fighting to do the same thing, you would actually suffer -4 to each attack if you used a longsword and a spiked heavy shield, since those are both one-handed weapons.

However, you could take Improved Two-weapon Fighting to get another off-hand attack, whereas there is no corresponding feat for Agile Shield Fighter.
Finarin Panjoro
04-10-07, 04:17 PM Agile Shield Fighter also doesn't have the dexterity requirement that the TWF feats do which makes it great for heavy armor using types since they typically have lower dexterity scores since they're depending on heavy armor for AC.
aelryinth
04-10-07, 06:46 PM You are incorrect on the bashing enchantment.

Bashing
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.)

Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus.

--From the SRD.

It specifically states how much the dmg is for a light and heavy shield with Bashing above. I believe they normally deal 1d3 and 1d4 dmg.

Bashing has no effect on spikes. Spikes are not considered part of the shield..they are a weapon that is enchanted seperately (which is why +5 Defender Spikes make for an awesome shield).

===Aelryinth
Part-Human2
04-10-07, 07:14 PM The Agile Shield Fighter feat also requires Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization. It only works during a full round attack. It only works when using a shield bash in the off-hand.
jaelis
04-10-07, 08:41 PM You are incorrect on the bashing enchantment.

Per the FAQ:

The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields. Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?

You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield spikes), and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon. The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing enhancement increases that to 1d8.)
WolfHati
04-10-07, 09:25 PM Which is why, when I DM, I maintain the stance, that just because it is in the FAQ, doesn't mean it's in my game.
Nezkrul
04-11-07, 12:10 AM it's a frequently asked question, clarafied by a WotC hired official human being. once in a while he makes a mistake, but for the most part, he's right (like for the shield bash and spike).

do you think that 1d8+half str mod ONCE per round, if the attack roll succeeds, is broken/unbalanced?

if yes, do you ever play/run a game where the characters actually have a 2 digit class level number? it's strong for a low level game, but peters out mid to high levels.
sparkster4242
04-16-07, 03:44 AM ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield.
Brendan Candries
04-16-07, 09:44 AM ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield.

source?
Spikes01k
04-16-07, 01:25 PM ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield.

Yeah I want to see the source for this one as well....
IonizedChicken
04-16-07, 02:54 PM Agile Shield Fighter is... meh.
It's nice but nothing to get excited about. It's going to be a dead weight at higher levels and doesn't really save shield & sword from sucking.

I mean, you need I. Shield Bash, Shield Spec., and this feat to get this benefit, not to mention the Bashing magical quality (+1 enhancement) where you could just wield a Greatsword with an Animated shield. Or, hell, bash with a shield as a two handed weapon (despite the fact that it isn't explicitly allowed by the rules).
Banatine
04-16-07, 03:02 PM you could use a greatsword and an animated shield, but that isn't exactly characterful, is it?

I want to fight with a sword and shield, like any regular hero would. I don't want to use cheap poxy enhancements like that. There is nothing heroic about it. I want to be a hero, and look like a hero. Thats what ASF lets you do. (Well, thats what I think anyway).
IonizedChicken
04-16-07, 03:20 PM Well, I don't. Not only because it isn't a good idea mechanically but also because, as you say, a regular hero would use a sword and a shield. Some common knight or paladin. No, that's not me. I hate knights and paladins.

And Animated shields can be very characterful, just like anything else when properly described.
GAMBLE_d13
04-16-07, 10:18 PM ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield.

If this is true, then ASF is worth taking, otherwise it is not, (tho retraining from PHBII lessens the load at higher levels).

Still, I think I'll wait on a source before getting all worked up ;)
Vaelan
04-17-07, 06:51 AM "Virtual feats" are abilities with the same function as a feat.

Agile Shield Fighter is not virtually Two-Weapon Fighting.
sparkster4242
05-18-07, 12:10 AM look at the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (and Wield Oversized Weapon Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting for good measure) when your offhand weapon is a shield - and then look at the benefits of Agile Shield Fighter, again when your offhand weapon is a shield.
im pretty sure you will find '-2 to all attacks, and one extra attack with the shield at your highest attack bonus' in both cases.

edited: corrected the name of a secondary feat
rasmuswagner
05-18-07, 03:39 AM Improved Agile Shield Fighter [Fighter]

Prereqs: Agile Shield Fighter, BaB +6

Effect: When performing a shield bash with your off hand as part of a full attack action, you may make another shield bash at -5.

Any DM who wouldn't allow this feat is a dick.
Elzaban the Ethereal
05-18-07, 03:42 AM look at the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (and Wield Oversized Weapon for good measure) when your offhand weapon is a shield - and then look at the benefits of Agile Shield Fighter, again when your offhand weapon is a shield.
im pretty sure you will find '-2 to all attacks, and one extra attack with the shield at your highest attack bonus' in both cases.
That's not a virtual feat. A virtual feat is a class ability like the Ranger's where they get two-weapon fighting when they wear light armour without meeting the other prerequisites, and can use that ability instead of the actual feat for meeting prerequisites. The next closest thing are those feats, like Improved Toughness or Kobold Endurance, that specifically say in their Special section that they count as other feats for purposes of meeting prerequisites. Agile Sheild Fighter does not have such a claue, and thus, you can't use it to get ITWF and GTWF. Which really sucks for shield fighters.
jaelis
05-18-07, 07:51 AM Which really sucks for shield fighters.
It sucks a lot less than it did before ASF came along.

Personally I think ASF is just about right. If you simply gave away the full TWF to shield fighters, then sword and board would be over-powered. (Certainly, it would be hard to justify using any other off-hand weapon than a shield.)
Vaelan
05-18-07, 08:04 AM The next closest thing are those feats, like Improved Toughness or Kobold Endurance, that specifically say in their Special section that they count as other feats for purposes of meeting prerequisites. Agile Sheild Fighter does not have such a claue, and thus, you can't use it to get ITWF and GTWF.

Shadow Blade (ToB) and Midnight Dodge (MoI) also have such statements attached.

Also, weren't Virtual Feats dumped in 3.5? I haven't seen a single reference to the idea in 3.5.
ShinAkuma2
05-18-07, 08:47 AM Per the FAQ:

You know, I could've sworn the FAQ used to say that, if you were hitting with a Bashing Shield, you weren't using the spikes.
jaelis
05-18-07, 09:07 AM Yes, they changed it.
ShinAkuma2
05-18-07, 11:21 AM Yes, they changed it.

Lovely.

...I suppose I have nothing constructive to add at this point.
sparkster4242
05-19-07, 12:31 AM actually, a virtual feat doesnt have to be a class feature specifically - according to both Sword and Fist and Tome and Blood, it can also be a 'special ability'. MM2 has this to say about 'special abilities' on p.12:

[
many creatures have unusual abilities, which can include special attack forms, resistance or vulnerability to certain types of damage, and enhanced senses, among others.
heh, just about anything can be a virtual feat - its the ability that matters, not where you got it.

most (all?) of the core virtual feats were replaced with actual (bonus) feats when 3.5 was published. the mechanic was (and still is) a little clumsy, but valid nonetheless.
Vaelan
05-19-07, 12:43 AM The new standard seems to be stating when something is a virtual feat. Agile Shield Fighter doesn't have any such statement.

Any DM who wouldn't allow this feat is a dick.
I'm a dick for wanting TWF to be worthwhile? If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter?
Nezkrul
05-19-07, 01:07 AM If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter?

You would be a sword and board TWF'er with lower dex than strength because you dont need the dexterity to get all your attacks. The TWF'er still gets his shield bonus, albeit from an animated shield of his own, or from TWDefense feat chain (if he's a Weapon Finesser).

And people arguing against sparkster: don't bother. You can't possibly change the guys mind in anything so don't start. He's playing 3.0, we play 3.5. Don't start beating a dead horse please :D
sunsetorange
05-20-07, 09:46 AM ...and clerics need an additional feat: Martial Weapon proficiency shield (light or heavy) since a shield "Used this way is a martial bludgening weapon" (PHB3.5 p125) and clerics don't get martial weapons.
GreenKnight
05-20-07, 11:49 AM I'm a dick for wanting TWF to be worthwhile? If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter?

The point for a two-weapon fighter is that he only needs to get ONE Feat, and can use anything as his off-hand weapon.

The shield wielder has to burn THREE Feats to get the same ability, and can only use a shield as his off-hand weapon. Where's the imbalance in that?

You wouldn't be a dick if you didn't allow it, but I don't see the problem with it. The two-weapon fighter just needs Two-Weapon Fighting and a Dex 15, and he can dual wield any weapon he wants, from sword/shield to sword/sword, axe/mace, club/broken beer bottle, etc.

The shield wielder, on the other hand, needs Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter. And all he can use for an off-hand weapon is a shield. I'd say that more then balances things out.

Look at it this way. If you're a high Dex character and want to dual wield, which route would YOU take? Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, or Agile Shield Fighter? The answer's obvious. Two-Weapon Fighting. Who in their right mind would burn THREE Feats to get a limited version of an ability when they only have to waste ONE Feat to get a superior version of the same ability?

But for those characters who rely on armor for protection, rather than Dex, well, it's nice to have the option of being able to dual wield sword/shield without having a high enough Dex first. A bit costly, sure, but it opens up a fun play style for us heavy armor types which normally don't have that option.
sparkster4242
06-04-07, 06:20 PM nezkrul:
primus - since you dont play in my groups, you have no way of knowing what version of the rules i play with... and by the way, you guessed wrong.

secundus - were you just flaming me for giggles, or did you have some point you wanted to make?

knight:
right on.
tahngarth40
06-04-07, 07:59 PM The reason why an imp ASF would be overpowered is because of the lack of the dex requirement.

Usually if you want to TWF you have to put your higher stat in to dex, secondary stat of str, and third stat of con, this hurts, your hit is lower w/out weapon finesse and you NEED your to hit as a TWF, your damage is lower, and your hitpoints and AC are more likely lower.

Agile shield fighter lets you wear your fullplate, have your shield, and eventually a 2d6 offhand weapon, and allows you to make your primary stats STR and CON, putting dex in the dust at a 12 and never needing to be higher than 12 instead of the 15-17-19. This means you will probably have a higher to hit, damage, AC, and HP than an ordinary TWF.

Take all this into account and an imp ASF is a pretty hefty ability. Its still a great low level ability in a campaign that allows retraining.
Vaelan
06-04-07, 08:54 PM The point for a two-weapon fighter is that he only needs to get ONE Feat, and can use anything as his off-hand weapon.
Two feats. Two-Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Agile Shield Fighter simultaneously emulates both of these feats and allows you to keep your shield bonus to AC, which could easily be better than all three Two-Weapon Defense feats since the feats provide a smaller possible shield bonus (+6 vs. +8) and require you to stack Fight Defensively penalties on top of TWF penalties.

The shield wielder has to burn THREE Feats to get the same ability, and can only use a shield as his off-hand weapon. Where's the imbalance in that?
It isn't the same ability, as I have shown above. Also, the number of feats really isn't an issue. Anyone who has decided to go with some form of dual wielding has already resigned themselves to spending practically all of their feats on it.

Look at it this way. If you're a high Dex character and want to dual wield, which route would YOU take? Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, or Agile Shield Fighter? The answer's obvious. Two-Weapon Fighting.
I would take Agile Shield Fighter. +8 AC is more than worth spending one more feat. I would consider Snap Kick as well.

But for those characters who rely on armor for protection, rather than Dex, well, it's nice to have the option of being able to dual wield sword/shield without having a high enough Dex first. A bit costly, sure, but it opens up a fun play style for us heavy armor types which normally don't have that option.
I don't disagree, but it makes a highly undesirable fighting style even less desirable.
RainerNader
06-04-07, 09:06 PM I think a feat like Improved Agile Shield Fighter would be balanced if it has some sort of stat prereq like Two Weapon Fighting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kingfisher 04-09-07, 02:30 AM	Am I reading this feat from the PHB II correctly? If I have shield bash, shield spec., shield prof., and this feat, I can make shield bash attacks with nothing more than a -2 penalty on my attacks? That means if I'm a full plate 12 dex fighter, I can be dual wielding with a bastard sword and a spiked heavy steel shield doing 1d10 and 1d8 on an off hand at a -2 penalty for each, where otherwise it would be a -6 and -10 penalty. That is the most ridiculous jump ever for a single feat. Give the shield +1 bashing at the cost of 4,000GP, and you are doing 3d6 for your off hand attack, at a -2 penalty for your attacks, without having to bother with the two-weapon fighting feats whatsoever. This has to be an oversight... shouldn't it mean that the penalty is reduced by by 2?... not that the penalty is automatically brought down to -2?
Banatine 04-10-07, 02:29 PM	A heavy spiked shield only does 1D6 damage, so a bashing one will only do 1D10. Unless I have misread the PHB (which is in my hand as i type this). Either way, I play a duskblade with agile shield fighter, and think its a really good feat. It gives some much needed incentive to use sword and shield again. The reason it isn't overpoweed is that there is no improved ASF, so you will only ever have one attack with that shield. It looks a little overpowered on paper, but really isn't broken.
jaelis 04-10-07, 02:35 PM	A spiked heavy shield normally does 1d6. Bashing takes it up to 2d6. Note that you only get one off-hand attack. It's still pretty good, but at higher levels you'll notice.
Banatine 04-10-07, 02:42 PM	You are right, jaelis. I hadn't actually seen the table that shows how size categories change damage. Sorry.
Spikes01k 04-10-07, 03:02 PM	A spiked heavy shield normally does 1d6. Bashing takes it up to 2d6. Note that you only get one off-hand attack. It's still pretty good, but at higher levels you'll notice. I am sorry to intrude but I don't under stand this statment. I am currently using a sword and shield fighter, please expand.
chitzk0i 04-10-07, 03:14 PM	I am sorry to intrude but I don't under stand this statment. I am currently using a sword and shield fighter, please expand. A spiked heavy shield deals 1d6 damage when used in a shield bash. A shidl with the Bashing enhancement deals damage as if it were two size categories larger. 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6, as per the weapon sizing table in the Equipment chapter of the PHB. Agile Shield Fighter is an alternative to Two-weapon Fighting for shield bashers that allows you to attack with a weapon and shield with only -2 to each attack, regardless of what shield and weapon are involved. If you tried to use the Two-weapon Fighting to do the same thing, you would actually suffer -4 to each attack if you used a longsword and a spiked heavy shield, since those are both one-handed weapons. However, you could take Improved Two-weapon Fighting to get another off-hand attack, whereas there is no corresponding feat for Agile Shield Fighter.
Finarin Panjoro 04-10-07, 04:17 PM	Agile Shield Fighter also doesn't have the dexterity requirement that the TWF feats do which makes it great for heavy armor using types since they typically have lower dexterity scores since they're depending on heavy armor for AC.
aelryinth 04-10-07, 06:46 PM	You are incorrect on the bashing enchantment. Bashing A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. (Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.) Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull’s strength; Price +1 bonus. --From the SRD. It specifically states how much the dmg is for a light and heavy shield with Bashing above. I believe they normally deal 1d3 and 1d4 dmg. Bashing has no effect on spikes. Spikes are not considered part of the shield..they are a weapon that is enchanted seperately (which is why +5 Defender Spikes make for an awesome shield). ===Aelryinth
Part-Human2 04-10-07, 07:14 PM	The Agile Shield Fighter feat also requires Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization. It only works during a full round attack. It only works when using a shield bash in the off-hand.
jaelis 04-10-07, 08:41 PM	You are incorrect on the bashing enchantment. Per the FAQ: The description of the magical bashing property for shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields. Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing? You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield spikes), and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon. The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing enhancement increases that to 1d8.)
WolfHati 04-10-07, 09:25 PM	Which is why, when I DM, I maintain the stance, that just because it is in the FAQ, doesn't mean it's in my game.
Nezkrul 04-11-07, 12:10 AM	it's a frequently asked question, clarafied by a WotC hired official human being. once in a while he makes a mistake, but for the most part, he's right (like for the shield bash and spike). do you think that 1d8+half str mod ONCE per round, if the attack roll succeeds, is broken/unbalanced? if yes, do you ever play/run a game where the characters actually have a 2 digit class level number? it's strong for a low level game, but peters out mid to high levels.
sparkster4242 04-16-07, 03:44 AM	ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield.
Brendan Candries 04-16-07, 09:44 AM	ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield. source?
Spikes01k 04-16-07, 01:25 PM	ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield. Yeah I want to see the source for this one as well....
IonizedChicken 04-16-07, 02:54 PM	Agile Shield Fighter is... meh. It's nice but nothing to get excited about. It's going to be a dead weight at higher levels and doesn't really save shield & sword from sucking. I mean, you need I. Shield Bash, Shield Spec., and this feat to get this benefit, not to mention the Bashing magical quality (+1 enhancement) where you could just wield a Greatsword with an Animated shield. Or, hell, bash with a shield as a two handed weapon (despite the fact that it isn't explicitly allowed by the rules).
Banatine 04-16-07, 03:02 PM	you could use a greatsword and an animated shield, but that isn't exactly characterful, is it? I want to fight with a sword and shield, like any regular hero would. I don't want to use cheap poxy enhancements like that. There is nothing heroic about it. I want to be a hero, and look like a hero. Thats what ASF lets you do. (Well, thats what I think anyway).
IonizedChicken 04-16-07, 03:20 PM	Well, I don't. Not only because it isn't a good idea mechanically but also because, as you say, a regular hero would use a sword and a shield. Some common knight or paladin. No, that's not me. I hate knights and paladins. And Animated shields can be very characterful, just like anything else when properly described.
GAMBLE_d13 04-16-07, 10:18 PM	ASF meets a TWF prerequisite as a virtual feat - you could use it to qualify for ITWF, as long as your off-hand weapon is a shield. If this is true, then ASF is worth taking, otherwise it is not, (tho retraining from PHBII lessens the load at higher levels). Still, I think I'll wait on a source before getting all worked up ;)
Vaelan 04-17-07, 06:51 AM	"Virtual feats" are abilities with the same function as a feat. Agile Shield Fighter is not virtually Two-Weapon Fighting.
sparkster4242 05-18-07, 12:10 AM	look at the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (and Wield Oversized Weapon Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting for good measure) when your offhand weapon is a shield - and then look at the benefits of Agile Shield Fighter, again when your offhand weapon is a shield. im pretty sure you will find '-2 to all attacks, and one extra attack with the shield at your highest attack bonus' in both cases. edited: corrected the name of a secondary feat
rasmuswagner 05-18-07, 03:39 AM	Improved Agile Shield Fighter [Fighter] Prereqs: Agile Shield Fighter, BaB +6 Effect: When performing a shield bash with your off hand as part of a full attack action, you may make another shield bash at -5. Any DM who wouldn't allow this feat is a dick.
Elzaban the Ethereal 05-18-07, 03:42 AM	look at the benefits of Two-Weapon Fighting (and Wield Oversized Weapon for good measure) when your offhand weapon is a shield - and then look at the benefits of Agile Shield Fighter, again when your offhand weapon is a shield. im pretty sure you will find '-2 to all attacks, and one extra attack with the shield at your highest attack bonus' in both cases. That's not a virtual feat. A virtual feat is a class ability like the Ranger's where they get two-weapon fighting when they wear light armour without meeting the other prerequisites, and can use that ability instead of the actual feat for meeting prerequisites. The next closest thing are those feats, like Improved Toughness or Kobold Endurance, that specifically say in their Special section that they count as other feats for purposes of meeting prerequisites. Agile Sheild Fighter does not have such a claue, and thus, you can't use it to get ITWF and GTWF. Which really sucks for shield fighters.
jaelis 05-18-07, 07:51 AM	Which really sucks for shield fighters. It sucks a lot less than it did before ASF came along. Personally I think ASF is just about right. If you simply gave away the full TWF to shield fighters, then sword and board would be over-powered. (Certainly, it would be hard to justify using any other off-hand weapon than a shield.)
Vaelan 05-18-07, 08:04 AM	The next closest thing are those feats, like Improved Toughness or Kobold Endurance, that specifically say in their Special section that they count as other feats for purposes of meeting prerequisites. Agile Sheild Fighter does not have such a claue, and thus, you can't use it to get ITWF and GTWF. Shadow Blade (ToB) and Midnight Dodge (MoI) also have such statements attached. Also, weren't Virtual Feats dumped in 3.5? I haven't seen a single reference to the idea in 3.5.
ShinAkuma2 05-18-07, 08:47 AM	Per the FAQ: You know, I could've sworn the FAQ used to say that, if you were hitting with a Bashing Shield, you weren't using the spikes.
jaelis 05-18-07, 09:07 AM	Yes, they changed it.
ShinAkuma2 05-18-07, 11:21 AM	Yes, they changed it. Lovely. ...I suppose I have nothing constructive to add at this point.
sparkster4242 05-19-07, 12:31 AM	actually, a virtual feat doesnt have to be a class feature specifically - according to both Sword and Fist and Tome and Blood, it can also be a 'special ability'. MM2 has this to say about 'special abilities' on p.12: [ many creatures have unusual abilities, which can include special attack forms, resistance or vulnerability to certain types of damage, and enhanced senses, among others. heh, just about anything can be a virtual feat - its the ability that matters, not where you got it. most (all?) of the core virtual feats were replaced with actual (bonus) feats when 3.5 was published. the mechanic was (and still is) a little clumsy, but valid nonetheless.
Vaelan 05-19-07, 12:43 AM	The new standard seems to be stating when something is a virtual feat. Agile Shield Fighter doesn't have any such statement. Any DM who wouldn't allow this feat is a dick. I'm a dick for wanting TWF to be worthwhile? If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter?
Nezkrul 05-19-07, 01:07 AM	If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter? You would be a sword and board TWF'er with lower dex than strength because you dont need the dexterity to get all your attacks. The TWF'er still gets his shield bonus, albeit from an animated shield of his own, or from TWDefense feat chain (if he's a Weapon Finesser). And people arguing against sparkster: don't bother. You can't possibly change the guys mind in anything so don't start. He's playing 3.0, we play 3.5. Don't start beating a dead horse please :D
sunsetorange 05-20-07, 09:46 AM	...and clerics need an additional feat: Martial Weapon proficiency shield (light or heavy) since a shield "Used this way is a martial bludgening weapon" (PHB3.5 p125) and clerics don't get martial weapons.
GreenKnight 05-20-07, 11:49 AM	I'm a dick for wanting TWF to be worthwhile? If you give a shield wielder as many attacks as a normal two-weapon fighter gets, what is the point of being a two-weapon fighter? The point for a two-weapon fighter is that he only needs to get ONE Feat, and can use anything as his off-hand weapon. The shield wielder has to burn THREE Feats to get the same ability, and can only use a shield as his off-hand weapon. Where's the imbalance in that? You wouldn't be a dick if you didn't allow it, but I don't see the problem with it. The two-weapon fighter just needs Two-Weapon Fighting and a Dex 15, and he can dual wield any weapon he wants, from sword/shield to sword/sword, axe/mace, club/broken beer bottle, etc. The shield wielder, on the other hand, needs Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, and Agile Shield Fighter. And all he can use for an off-hand weapon is a shield. I'd say that more then balances things out. Look at it this way. If you're a high Dex character and want to dual wield, which route would YOU take? Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, or Agile Shield Fighter? The answer's obvious. Two-Weapon Fighting. Who in their right mind would burn THREE Feats to get a limited version of an ability when they only have to waste ONE Feat to get a superior version of the same ability? But for those characters who rely on armor for protection, rather than Dex, well, it's nice to have the option of being able to dual wield sword/shield without having a high enough Dex first. A bit costly, sure, but it opens up a fun play style for us heavy armor types which normally don't have that option.
sparkster4242 06-04-07, 06:20 PM	nezkrul: primus - since you dont play in my groups, you have no way of knowing what version of the rules i play with... and by the way, you guessed wrong. secundus - were you just flaming me for giggles, or did you have some point you wanted to make? knight: right on.
tahngarth40 06-04-07, 07:59 PM	The reason why an imp ASF would be overpowered is because of the lack of the dex requirement. Usually if you want to TWF you have to put your higher stat in to dex, secondary stat of str, and third stat of con, this hurts, your hit is lower w/out weapon finesse and you NEED your to hit as a TWF, your damage is lower, and your hitpoints and AC are more likely lower. Agile shield fighter lets you wear your fullplate, have your shield, and eventually a 2d6 offhand weapon, and allows you to make your primary stats STR and CON, putting dex in the dust at a 12 and never needing to be higher than 12 instead of the 15-17-19. This means you will probably have a higher to hit, damage, AC, and HP than an ordinary TWF. Take all this into account and an imp ASF is a pretty hefty ability. Its still a great low level ability in a campaign that allows retraining.
Vaelan 06-04-07, 08:54 PM	The point for a two-weapon fighter is that he only needs to get ONE Feat, and can use anything as his off-hand weapon. Two feats. Two-Weapon Fighting and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Agile Shield Fighter simultaneously emulates both of these feats and allows you to keep your shield bonus to AC, which could easily be better than all three Two-Weapon Defense feats since the feats provide a smaller possible shield bonus (+6 vs. +8) and require you to stack Fight Defensively penalties on top of TWF penalties. The shield wielder has to burn THREE Feats to get the same ability, and can only use a shield as his off-hand weapon. Where's the imbalance in that? It isn't the same ability, as I have shown above. Also, the number of feats really isn't an issue. Anyone who has decided to go with some form of dual wielding has already resigned themselves to spending practically all of their feats on it. Look at it this way. If you're a high Dex character and want to dual wield, which route would YOU take? Two-Weapon Fighting Feat, or Agile Shield Fighter? The answer's obvious. Two-Weapon Fighting. I would take Agile Shield Fighter. +8 AC is more than worth spending one more feat. I would consider Snap Kick as well. But for those characters who rely on armor for protection, rather than Dex, well, it's nice to have the option of being able to dual wield sword/shield without having a high enough Dex first. A bit costly, sure, but it opens up a fun play style for us heavy armor types which normally don't have that option. I don't disagree, but it makes a highly undesirable fighting style even less desirable.
RainerNader 06-04-07, 09:06 PM	I think a feat like Improved Agile Shield Fighter would be balanced if it has some sort of stat prereq like Two Weapon Fighting.