Questioning the reality of crafting weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Questioning the reality of crafting weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maleko
11-12-07, 01:04 AM For some reason (and I may be getting this completely wrong), but if you attempt to craft martial weapons (no masterwork), it takes you roughly a full week just to make one heavy mace (even with a 10 ranks of Craft and good rolls). I don't understand how smithies are actually making any money of their items if it takes so long to make even one weapon or shield.

Just curious, and I apologize to those who hate nerdy philosophy. :P
ToastedAmphibian
11-12-07, 08:26 PM First off, heavy mace isnt a martial weapon......

Anywho, With 10 ranks in craft, and an int bonus of 2 assume you roll a 10 on your craft check. You would make progress equal to this many gold pieces:

(10+10+2)*15/10

Or 33 gold pieces. Thats 2 war-hammers, 3 Battle-Axes, 4 Glaives, 5 Great Clubs, or 33 saps. Mmmm 33 saps. Or 33 light hammers if you prefere.

Why does this bother you but the fact that you pay more for materials for a falchone than you would for a Spiked chain aparently dosn't? Even a rapier costs more materials than a spiked chain does, despite the fact that the chain weighs 5 times as much as a rapier does, despite being made from teh same materials. Gosh thats an incredibly exspensive Ivory Handle, oh well, all rapiers come with an ivory handle, so mine has to have one also!
Maleko
11-12-07, 11:44 PM Point taken on the heavy mace dilemma. I blame the early morning post. Anyway, now that you have shown some examples, I'm starting to understand the rule a bit more. I'm trying out a dwarven cleric of Moradin and my party just got themselves a new shop :D . When I read the rule, I thought the equation went something like this (I'll use your example).

(10+10+2) = 22 for the roll check
22 * DC check (let us say 12 for the SIMPLE weapon ;) ) = 264 for our total check result
12 gp (heavy mace price) * 10 = 120 sp
264/120 = 2.2 heavy maces in the duration of the week (or 1 in about 3.5 days)

Do I have this right? And also, I'm not worried about material costs, but the reason why it took a week to make only two heavy maces (then again, they are quite expensive for the simple melee weapons). This is a little different from your equation, but again, I'm just trying to get the rules straight.
Kyuketsukiouji
11-13-07, 07:16 AM No, you're missing this rules:

You can raise the DC for an item by slices of 10 to make time go faster, so, for a simple weapon, you can up the DC to 22, for 22*22 = 484 sp work per week.

So, you can make 4 heavy maces in a week.
LSMFT
11-13-07, 11:34 AM You can look and find a lot of issues with the crafting rues. They are very unrealistic.

The reason why, IMHO, is because this isn't a crafting game!

Rules for these things are deliberately simplistic and have more to do with balancing an adventure game than with modeling a manufacturing game.

The rules aren't there to create a realistic model of an economy for characters to participate in by manufacturing and selling goods.
risner
11-13-07, 01:33 PM For some reason (and I may be getting this completely wrong), but if you attempt to craft martial weapons (no masterwork), it takes you roughly a full week just to make one heavy mace (even with a 10 ranks of Craft and good rolls). I don't understand how smithies are actually making any money of their items if it takes so long to make even one weapon or shield.

Just curious, and I apologize to those who hate nerdy philosophy. :P

several gold a week is GOOD money.

But, it isn't clear to me you may make multiple per check. By RAW, you need to make checks by day and make only one per day to maximize your # of weapons a week output.
1 ton ghost
11-15-07, 12:03 PM firstly, there's nothing wrong w/ this post. no need to make apologies.
second, you gotta' imagine most smithies are Taking 10. it's their bread and butter so why take risks? especially if you have a family counting on you. slow and steady wins the race and no one is going to pay for a ruined weapon.
third, the Craft system is screwy at best, but it's nice when you can't get that Gather Info to score a suit of mithral. however, acquiring a block at a lesser DC allows you to craft it yourself, albeit, at some time.
Essex
11-15-07, 07:46 PM Consider also that professional craftsmen will take Skill Focus (craft), possess masterwork tools (+2 bonus), and have one or two apprentices to help (+2 bonus each).
Kyuketsukiouji
11-16-07, 07:49 AM Consider also that professional craftsmen will take Skill Focus (craft), possess masterwork tools (+2 bonus), and have one or two apprentices to help (+2 bonus each).

Extraordinary Trapsmith (Races of the Dragon) also sets up a precedent for other 75% cost crafting feats, and the Forge of Sustenance (Races of Stone) seem to set a precedent for being able to work multiple 8-hour shifts.

So, a dedicated 6th level crafter could work 2 shifts per day, with a base DC of 9 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 (assuming 16 int) = 17 + 10 (take 10) *2, at 75% base cost, which would produce rapid results.

As a DM, I'd probably make cumulative Con checks for getting tired, though.
ogg205
11-16-07, 01:17 PM I see a problem in the crafting system itself. It takes far too long to do some pretty common tasks. Masterwork equipment takes far too long to craft in a campaign situation. I can really see why no one in my campaign has a craft skill. they take far too long compared to magic item creation time. One would think it would take far longer to make a magic weapon than a masterwork.
imakuni67
11-16-07, 01:49 PM Gosh thats an incredibly exspensive Ivory Handle, oh well, all rapiers come with an ivory handle, so mine has to have one also!

I'd assume that an ivory handle means it's masterwork...

But I agree that the prices of weapons is out of wack. Greataxe (12 pounds) cost 20 gp and his rival brother the Greatsword costs 50gp and weighs 4 pounds less?

I'd put a 100gp price tag on a spiked chain myself. It's just so complex and wicked.
Knightblde
11-16-07, 02:56 PM You are looking at it all wrong. This is not the 21st century. Today we can get all the parts that we want for a project fast and easy.

For example, I had a room mate from India. I installed a door in my house. I bought the door, frame, shims, trim, hinges and knob all at Home Depot. It took about 1/2 hour to install it. He told me that in his country (still way more advanced than any D&D society) he would have to make the trim, frame and shims. He also said he would have to get the parts from different people.

Now, for the differences of the two weapons: Greataxe vs greatsword

Materials required:
Axe:
Metal 50%, Leather 5%, Wood 40%, Glue 2%, Roping 3%

Sword:
Metal 90%, Leather 1%, Wood 2%, Glue 1%, Roping 1%

Even though they all require the same materials, they require vastly different ammounts. The time and effort required to shaped the sword blade is WAY more than that of the clunky axe.

The sword balde has to be flexible, the axe does not. The sword blade has to balanced, the axe does not.

There is more fuel (coal) required to make the sword than the axe. Not all the things you buy actually become part of the project.

The rule is simple and fast so that you can create anything. They are also uniform so that all craftsman, no matter what they make, make the same amount of money for their craft, much like magic item crafting. That way there is no one crafting skill everyone wants, and one that no one does. It is about game mechanics, not trademen mechanics.

I'd like to see anyone come up with a craft/profession skill that works perfectly for all posible trades with only one simple formula.
1 ton ghost
11-16-07, 03:25 PM Knightblde raises an incredibly good point. very insightful. nj btw. the sword/axe comparison serves as a reminder of the raw materials, not the final product. you're buying the smith's time mostly, fuel, his apprenctices' salary (pittance), etc., not just the finished steel.
even by today's standards, there's parts & labor w/ the vastly inflated MSRP in most commercial economies. and we're talking proto-renaissance here too. john doe might be the only smithy in town capable of making weapon 'x' so he can charge what he thinks the market will bear.

God i wish they would institute 2nd ed weapons:
poor: -1 all around
avg: standard hit/dmg
fine: +1 hit or dmg, smith's choice
exceptional: +1 hit & dmg

implying MW or norm is an oversimplification, but i like details, bells & whistles. i know, too many options makes you seem lost in the flood, but you don't have to use them, you know? others want that freedom and alternative means. streamlining is ok for some, but if you can keep up w/ a little math/bookkeeping for a few extras, you should have that luxury.

the 2nd to last Dragon (recommmended) had an article on different weapon mods. this was WAY OVERDUE to be honest. some examples being:

-serrated: +1 dmg for d4 rounds after crit confimation (personal fav w/ Keen on Pit Spawned template [DMGII])
-basket hilt: +2 vs. disarm/opposed disarm
-razor edge: +1 dmg overall
-blood groove, light weight, ornamental, etc. many many more.
the cost of course if typically extra $, a higher Craft DC, and finding someone who's able.

just stipulating that a weapon/armorsmith can make normative to MW range is boring and pigeonholing his skills. these help to make Craft more desirable and breath in some life to an often-overlooked skill.
Dog_O_War
11-16-07, 05:00 PM Oh man, I WANT THAT ISSUE!

Me and Aryxbez had a similar conversation on craft times and such a couple months ago (try crafting one suit of MW sectioned fullplate in under a year without magic). The system is unrealistic for certain items.

I was attempting to come up with a set of alternative weapon & armour modifications, which I never did post (sorry, Aryxbez). This leads me to ask where I can get a copy of this issue?
ToastedAmphibian
11-17-07, 12:23 AM Of corse you mostly paying for the smiths time. Thats why it costs less to make it yourself! Im not saying i could make a better craftign system. This one is simple and works well!

I said its un realistic that the material costs to make it yourself can be higher for a smaller weapon than a larger one.

A Falchion and a Greatsword weigh the same amount, and are composed of esentially the same types and relative quantites of material. The diffrence? A Falchion has a more complex shape and a sharper edge. So why does it take more money to make it? And why isnt it harder to make?

Because this way is simpler.

Its also silly.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maleko 11-12-07, 01:04 AM	For some reason (and I may be getting this completely wrong), but if you attempt to craft martial weapons (no masterwork), it takes you roughly a full week just to make one heavy mace (even with a 10 ranks of Craft and good rolls). I don't understand how smithies are actually making any money of their items if it takes so long to make even one weapon or shield. Just curious, and I apologize to those who hate nerdy philosophy. :P
ToastedAmphibian 11-12-07, 08:26 PM	First off, heavy mace isnt a martial weapon...... Anywho, With 10 ranks in craft, and an int bonus of 2 assume you roll a 10 on your craft check. You would make progress equal to this many gold pieces: (10+10+2)*15/10 Or 33 gold pieces. Thats 2 war-hammers, 3 Battle-Axes, 4 Glaives, 5 Great Clubs, or 33 saps. Mmmm 33 saps. Or 33 light hammers if you prefere. Why does this bother you but the fact that you pay more for materials for a falchone than you would for a Spiked chain aparently dosn't? Even a rapier costs more materials than a spiked chain does, despite the fact that the chain weighs 5 times as much as a rapier does, despite being made from teh same materials. Gosh thats an incredibly exspensive Ivory Handle, oh well, all rapiers come with an ivory handle, so mine has to have one also!
Maleko 11-12-07, 11:44 PM	Point taken on the heavy mace dilemma. I blame the early morning post. Anyway, now that you have shown some examples, I'm starting to understand the rule a bit more. I'm trying out a dwarven cleric of Moradin and my party just got themselves a new shop :D . When I read the rule, I thought the equation went something like this (I'll use your example). (10+10+2) = 22 for the roll check 22 * DC check (let us say 12 for the SIMPLE weapon ;) ) = 264 for our total check result 12 gp (heavy mace price) * 10 = 120 sp 264/120 = 2.2 heavy maces in the duration of the week (or 1 in about 3.5 days) Do I have this right? And also, I'm not worried about material costs, but the reason why it took a week to make only two heavy maces (then again, they are quite expensive for the simple melee weapons). This is a little different from your equation, but again, I'm just trying to get the rules straight.
Kyuketsukiouji 11-13-07, 07:16 AM	No, you're missing this rules: You can raise the DC for an item by slices of 10 to make time go faster, so, for a simple weapon, you can up the DC to 22, for 22*22 = 484 sp work per week. So, you can make 4 heavy maces in a week.
LSMFT 11-13-07, 11:34 AM	You can look and find a lot of issues with the crafting rues. They are very unrealistic. The reason why, IMHO, is because this isn't a crafting game! Rules for these things are deliberately simplistic and have more to do with balancing an adventure game than with modeling a manufacturing game. The rules aren't there to create a realistic model of an economy for characters to participate in by manufacturing and selling goods.
risner 11-13-07, 01:33 PM	For some reason (and I may be getting this completely wrong), but if you attempt to craft martial weapons (no masterwork), it takes you roughly a full week just to make one heavy mace (even with a 10 ranks of Craft and good rolls). I don't understand how smithies are actually making any money of their items if it takes so long to make even one weapon or shield. Just curious, and I apologize to those who hate nerdy philosophy. :P several gold a week is GOOD money. But, it isn't clear to me you may make multiple per check. By RAW, you need to make checks by day and make only one per day to maximize your # of weapons a week output.
1 ton ghost 11-15-07, 12:03 PM	firstly, there's nothing wrong w/ this post. no need to make apologies. second, you gotta' imagine most smithies are Taking 10. it's their bread and butter so why take risks? especially if you have a family counting on you. slow and steady wins the race and no one is going to pay for a ruined weapon. third, the Craft system is screwy at best, but it's nice when you can't get that Gather Info to score a suit of mithral. however, acquiring a block at a lesser DC allows you to craft it yourself, albeit, at some time.
Essex 11-15-07, 07:46 PM	Consider also that professional craftsmen will take Skill Focus (craft), possess masterwork tools (+2 bonus), and have one or two apprentices to help (+2 bonus each).
Kyuketsukiouji 11-16-07, 07:49 AM	Consider also that professional craftsmen will take Skill Focus (craft), possess masterwork tools (+2 bonus), and have one or two apprentices to help (+2 bonus each). Extraordinary Trapsmith (Races of the Dragon) also sets up a precedent for other 75% cost crafting feats, and the Forge of Sustenance (Races of Stone) seem to set a precedent for being able to work multiple 8-hour shifts. So, a dedicated 6th level crafter could work 2 shifts per day, with a base DC of 9 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 (assuming 16 int) = 17 + 10 (take 10) *2, at 75% base cost, which would produce rapid results. As a DM, I'd probably make cumulative Con checks for getting tired, though.
ogg205 11-16-07, 01:17 PM	I see a problem in the crafting system itself. It takes far too long to do some pretty common tasks. Masterwork equipment takes far too long to craft in a campaign situation. I can really see why no one in my campaign has a craft skill. they take far too long compared to magic item creation time. One would think it would take far longer to make a magic weapon than a masterwork.
imakuni67 11-16-07, 01:49 PM	Gosh thats an incredibly exspensive Ivory Handle, oh well, all rapiers come with an ivory handle, so mine has to have one also! I'd assume that an ivory handle means it's masterwork... But I agree that the prices of weapons is out of wack. Greataxe (12 pounds) cost 20 gp and his rival brother the Greatsword costs 50gp and weighs 4 pounds less? I'd put a 100gp price tag on a spiked chain myself. It's just so complex and wicked.
Knightblde 11-16-07, 02:56 PM	You are looking at it all wrong. This is not the 21st century. Today we can get all the parts that we want for a project fast and easy. For example, I had a room mate from India. I installed a door in my house. I bought the door, frame, shims, trim, hinges and knob all at Home Depot. It took about 1/2 hour to install it. He told me that in his country (still way more advanced than any D&D society) he would have to make the trim, frame and shims. He also said he would have to get the parts from different people. Now, for the differences of the two weapons: Greataxe vs greatsword Materials required: Axe: Metal 50%, Leather 5%, Wood 40%, Glue 2%, Roping 3% Sword: Metal 90%, Leather 1%, Wood 2%, Glue 1%, Roping 1% Even though they all require the same materials, they require vastly different ammounts. The time and effort required to shaped the sword blade is WAY more than that of the clunky axe. The sword balde has to be flexible, the axe does not. The sword blade has to balanced, the axe does not. There is more fuel (coal) required to make the sword than the axe. Not all the things you buy actually become part of the project. The rule is simple and fast so that you can create anything. They are also uniform so that all craftsman, no matter what they make, make the same amount of money for their craft, much like magic item crafting. That way there is no one crafting skill everyone wants, and one that no one does. It is about game mechanics, not trademen mechanics. I'd like to see anyone come up with a craft/profession skill that works perfectly for all posible trades with only one simple formula.
1 ton ghost 11-16-07, 03:25 PM	Knightblde raises an incredibly good point. very insightful. nj btw. the sword/axe comparison serves as a reminder of the raw materials, not the final product. you're buying the smith's time mostly, fuel, his apprenctices' salary (pittance), etc., not just the finished steel. even by today's standards, there's parts & labor w/ the vastly inflated MSRP in most commercial economies. and we're talking proto-renaissance here too. john doe might be the only smithy in town capable of making weapon 'x' so he can charge what he thinks the market will bear. God i wish they would institute 2nd ed weapons: poor: -1 all around avg: standard hit/dmg fine: +1 hit or dmg, smith's choice exceptional: +1 hit & dmg implying MW or norm is an oversimplification, but i like details, bells & whistles. i know, too many options makes you seem lost in the flood, but you don't have to use them, you know? others want that freedom and alternative means. streamlining is ok for some, but if you can keep up w/ a little math/bookkeeping for a few extras, you should have that luxury. the 2nd to last Dragon (recommmended) had an article on different weapon mods. this was WAY OVERDUE to be honest. some examples being: -serrated: +1 dmg for d4 rounds after crit confimation (personal fav w/ Keen on Pit Spawned template [DMGII]) -basket hilt: +2 vs. disarm/opposed disarm -razor edge: +1 dmg overall -blood groove, light weight, ornamental, etc. many many more. the cost of course if typically extra $, a higher Craft DC, and finding someone who's able. just stipulating that a weapon/armorsmith can make normative to MW range is boring and pigeonholing his skills. these help to make Craft more desirable and breath in some life to an often-overlooked skill.
Dog_O_War 11-16-07, 05:00 PM	Oh man, I WANT THAT ISSUE! Me and Aryxbez had a similar conversation on craft times and such a couple months ago (try crafting one suit of MW sectioned fullplate in under a year without magic). The system is unrealistic for certain items. I was attempting to come up with a set of alternative weapon & armour modifications, which I never did post (sorry, Aryxbez). This leads me to ask where I can get a copy of this issue?
ToastedAmphibian 11-17-07, 12:23 AM	Of corse you mostly paying for the smiths time. Thats why it costs less to make it yourself! Im not saying i could make a better craftign system. This one is simple and works well! I said its un realistic that the material costs to make it yourself can be higher for a smaller weapon than a larger one. A Falchion and a Greatsword weigh the same amount, and are composed of esentially the same types and relative quantites of material. The diffrence? A Falchion has a more complex shape and a sharper edge. So why does it take more money to make it? And why isnt it harder to make? Because this way is simpler. Its also silly.