Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pinkysbrain 03-03-07, 05:58 PM	how many attack can you do in shot on the run?? only one or more if one is there a way to get more attack wille ou use shot on the run??
Willie the Duck 03-03-07, 06:06 PM	You don't get a specific number of shots with the feat. You get to split your move action to be both before and after an attack action (which is not a full round attack action). However many attacks you can get with that attack action is how many shots you can get. There are very few ways to get more than one attack on an attack action (there might be something somewhere, splitting bows maybe). One common misconception is that you can use the manyshot feat with shot on the run. This is not the case, as using your manyshot feat is an action onto itself, not an attack action, and SotR specifies that you are splitting your move around an attack action. It's pretty clear, as far as the rules go (now what the rules should be is a more arguable question).
ShinAkuma2 03-03-07, 06:10 PM	You only get one attack. That's it. I haven't seen anything to increase that, though a homebrew feat might make it worth using.
pinkysbrain 03-03-07, 06:20 PM	hmm then its no good for a scout were you have to move 10 feet were you only get one attack any way
Willie the Duck 03-03-07, 06:42 PM	Actually it is perfect for a scout. You can move 10' back, staying within 30' of your target (and thus getting your bonus damage), and then continuing the rest of your move to get you out of easy retribution range (assuming your amped speed lets you get to somewhere you can't easily be charged). It just doesn't let you move 10' and then get all sorts of attacks with bonus dice (for that you need greater multishot, which also won't synergize with SotR).
pinkysbrain 03-03-07, 07:19 PM	hmm is there then a feet that improvd the range of skirmish
Tonil 03-03-07, 10:53 PM	One common misconception is that you can use the manyshot feat with shot on the run. This is not the case, as using your manyshot feat is an action onto itself, not an attack action, and SotR specifies that you are splitting your move around an attack action. It's pretty clear, as far as the rules go (now what the rules should be is a more arguable question). I am not sure what you mean by an "action unto itself." An attack is either a standard action or a full attack action. Manyshot is an attack that takes a standard action. That is, it is an attack (type of action), that takes a standard action (time to complete action) to perform. Thus one can use Manyshot (standard attack action) and move (move action). That is the primary benefit of manyshot, and it can be used with shot-on-the-run. From the PHB: Manyshot: p. 97 "As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet." In other words, it is an attack. Action Types: p.138 "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full round action." Standard Actions: p. 139 "Most standard actions involve making an attack, casting a spell, or activating an item...Making an attack is a standard action." Manyshot is a standard action, so you can do manyshot and move in the same round. Shot-on-the-run affects WHEN you can use the move action in relation to the standard action, and then restricts it to attack actions only. Since an attack action is a standard action or a full-round action, and you can move and attack as a standard action at the same time, you can use shot-on-the-run and manyshot in the same round. (But you cannot do more than one standard action, as stated above.) Are you saying that Manyshot is not considered an attack action?
Frugal 03-04-07, 09:51 AM	Are you saying that Manyshot is not considered an attack action? It's not an attack action, it's clearly stated as a standard action. Look at page 141 of the PHB where "attack (melee)" and "attack (ranged)" and both listed as specific standard actions. Manyshot is another standard action while shot on the run explicitly states it only works with an "attack action".
Tonil 03-04-07, 10:46 AM	It's not an attack action, it's clearly stated as a standard action. Look at page 141 of the PHB where "attack (melee)" and "attack (ranged)" and both listed as specific standard actions. Manyshot is another standard action while shot on the run explicitly states it only works with an "attack action". OK, now I understand your point. And I see how the PHB confuses the issue. Other feats say "when making an attack " or similar description. I compared Manyshot to some other actions in PHB, and I must disagree with you. Manyshot is an attack action, for three reasons. The first is the description of Manyshot, PHB p.97. You can "fire two arrows" which is an attack (ranged). Both arrows use "the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage." This describes an attack, and uses an attack roll. I do not see a reason why it should NOT be considered an attack roll. The second is the description of a Ranged Attack, PHB p. 139. "Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range..." When using manyshot you are shooting at a target within range (30' in the case of the feat) with a ranged weapon. The action fits the description of an attack (ranged). Again, I do not see a reason why Manyshot does NOT fit this description. Combining 1 and 2 Manyshot works like other feats. "Improved Feint" modifies your Feint action, "Improved Sunder" modifies your Sunder action, and "Manyshot" modifies your attack action. The third reason is that the rulebooks assume an action fits something on the list on PHB p. 141, unless it states otherwise. A skill is assumed to be a skill check unless it says something like "this is part of your move action." Not all skill checks say "this action is a skill check action," they say it is a standard action or full-round action. Or take some feats. Precise Shot, p.98, states "You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty to your attack roll." It does not say "When making an attack action." Because it says "attack roll" it is an attack, just as Manyshot is an attack because it modifies your attack roll. So, compared to these examples I think Manyshot is an "Attack (ranged)" action that takes a "Standard Action" amount of time to complete.
Nezkrul 03-04-07, 12:13 PM	right, but SotR does not say you can take a standard action during your move action; hence why you cannot use many shot with shot on the run.
Tonil 03-04-07, 12:40 PM	right, but SotR does not say you can take a standard action during your move action; hence why you cannot use many shot with shot on the run. Actually SotR assumes that you take a standard action. In using SotR you are restricted to a standard, attack (ranged) action. An "attack" action is a standard action. This is my logic: 1. You can attack as a fulll-round action or a standard action. The "attack" is the action, "standard" is the time. 2. If you take a full attack action you can take a 5' step. If you take a standard attack action you can take a move action before or after your attack. 3. The move action you take with a standard attack action can be moving your speed or picking up an item or standing up, etc., as long as it is a move time action (i.e., Run is movement that takes a full round of time, so is not a move action.) 4. SotR is assuming you take an attack and move your speed in the same round, therefore you are restricted to a standard attack (ranged) action, and a move action. SotR lets you split up the movement, rather than all before or all after the standard attack (ranged) action. 5. Since an attack action is either a standard action or a full-round action, and you can only move and attack in one round if you take a standard action, then yes, SotR, assumes you take a standard attack (ranged) action and a move action. 6. And since I argue that Manyshot is an attack (ranged) action of standard time, it qualifies to be used with SotR. Again, a "standard action" is time, "attack action" is what you do. I am sorry my posts are long, but I am trying to work out all the steps.
ShinAkuma2 03-04-07, 12:59 PM	You can argue that all you like, it's still incorrect. Manyshot is a standard action, like a spell. It is not an attack action, and you can't make multiple Manyshots in a round. SotR is to be used with an attack action. Just as you can't SotR when casting a spell, you can't SotR with a Manyshot.
paladin2019 03-04-07, 01:19 PM	The problem with defining Manyshot as an attack action rather than a standard action comes into play with multiple attacks. A character with a +6 BAB, for example, may make two attacks in a round, one at +6 BAB and one at +1 BAB. If Manyshot is an attack action rather than its own standard action, the manyshooter can Manyshot once at +6 BAB and once at +1 BAB. However, Manyshot is its own standard action, so only one is allowed per round as only one standard action is allowed per round.
EvilVegan 03-04-07, 01:21 PM	Actually SotR assumes that you take a standard action. In using SotR you are restricted to a standard, attack (ranged) action. An "attack" action is a standard action. They assume nothing. Its a standard action, which is different from an attack. Check out Flyby attack "When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. " If you were allowed to perform a standard action it would have been written like flyby attack. Standard actions are very clearly spelled out. SotR clearly spells out "when using the attack action" Manyshot clearly spells out that it is a "standard action" not "the attack action". Making an attack is also a standard action, but so is drinking a potion or casting a spell. So Making an attack is a standard action. Manyshot is a standard action. Shot on the Run says you can use the "attack action" (which is a standard action) while moving, but it doesn't say you can use a "standard action" because that would also include drinking potions, making regular melee attacks, casting spells, etc (all things permitted by flyby attack, by the way). You get one very specific type of standard action, the "attack action". Manyshot is not an attack action, it is a standard action. Were it an attack action it would say "As an attack action" not "as a standard action."
Frugal 03-04-07, 02:17 PM	It's all pretty much been said. "You may have an apple" is different from, "you may have a fruit". In the first case if the person has both apples and oranges you can't take an orange even though they said you can have an apple and an apple is a fruit and so is an orange. By the same token, if something says that you may make an attack action with a ranged weapon that's not the same as saying you can take another action which also happens to be a standard action just because attack (ranged) is a standard action. You're being limited to a very specific subset of standard actions (actually, 1 action). The same would be true if there was a "drink on the run" feat that allowed you to drink a potion at any time during your move; you can't argue that you could take a different standard action during that time. Now that said, there's nothing necessarily wrong with your logic as a justification for a house rule that manyshot can be combined with shot on the run but just be aware that it is a house rule and make sure that you're clear that you can't combine manyshot with a full attack action or else you'll get all kinds of manyshots and possibly combining it with rapid shot too.
Tonil 03-04-07, 02:29 PM	I agree with the descriptions of SotR, it is the argument that Manyshot is not an attack action that I disagree with. I think I may have to agree to disagree. I fear I have highjacked this thread, so let me make one final point, then I will leave it alone. They assume nothing. Its a standard action, which is different from an attack. It may be different. All (non-AoO) attack actions are either standard actions or full round actions. They have a genus/species relationship (standard is genus/attack is species). To be a standard attack is to be a standard action, but not all standard actions are attack actions (as you note below). "When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack. " If you were allowed to perform a standard action it would have been written like flyby attack. This is a good point. Why didn't they write them the same. I think the reason that Fly-By it is not written like SotR is that by specifying an attack action with SotR they were specifying one form of standard action. They are making Fly-by more flexible than SotR, and also clarifying doubts such as these. But note, if you move and attack with SotR you are performing a move action and a standard action, as all attacks are either standard actions or full-round actions. With Fly-By it is more flexible, as you can move and do any standard action. you can cast a spell or drink a potion, but you could also choose to do a standard attack action with Fly-By. Standard actions are very clearly spelled out. I agree. And on page 141 of PHB it lists an attack as a form of standard action. When you perform a (standard) attack action you are performing a standard action. SotR clearly spells out "when using the attack action" Manyshot clearly spells out that it is a "standard action" not "the attack action". So when performing the attack action as part of SotR you are perfoming a standard action, i.e., a standard attack as opposed to a full-round attack. Whether Manyshot qualifies as an attack action or some other, non attack standard action is the issue. I think that it is an attack action, which makes it also a standard action. You think it is a non-attack standard action. This is the issue that I am most in doubt about, not what one can do with SotR. Making an attack is also a standard action, but so is drinking a potion or casting a spell. I agree, and SotR only lets you make a standard attack, while Fly-By lets you do other standard actions So Making an attack is a standard action. Manyshot is a standard action. Shot on the Run says you can use the "attack action" (which is a standard action) while moving, but it doesn't say you can use a "standard action" because that would also include drinking potions, making regular melee attacks, casting spells, etc (all things permitted by flyby attack, by the way). You get one very specific type of standard action, the "attack action". Manyshot is not an attack action, it is a standard action. Were it an attack action it would say "As an attack action" not "as a standard action." I agree up to the last point. I think your description of SotR is completely acccurate, I am sorry that I did not make that clear in my earlier post. It is the description of Manyshot as not being an attack action that bothers me. I think they said "standard action" so that people could not use it as a full attack, but that does not exclude it from being an attack action. Just to make my point clear, and then I will drop it. I think SotR allows for an attack action. This is a standard attack. You cannot do other standard actions, only an attack of standard duration. I think we all agree on this I agree that Manyshot is a standard action. It says so in the PHB. I think that Manyshot is a standard attack action. It is not a standard spell action or a defense action, but an attack action. I think this because you make an attack roll, and it does not fit with another standard action, such as a skill or a trip attempt. It is the last point that we disagree on.
Frugal 03-04-07, 03:25 PM	I agree that Manyshot is a standard action. It says so in the PHB. I think that Manyshot is a standard attack action. It is not a standard spell action or a defense action, but an attack action. I think this because you make an attack roll, and it does not fit with another standard action, such as a skill or a trip attempt. It is the last point that we disagree on. There's no such thing as a standard attack action, there is the attack action (with melee, ranged and unarmed varieties), there is also the full attack action. The attack action is one of several standard actions. The full attack action is one of several full round actions. It's a subtle distinction but a very important one. There are several standard actions which can be used as an attack, using a wand, bull rush, using an extraordinary ability, using a spell-like ability, using a supernatural ability, etc, etc. Any of those (and several more) could be an attack, but they do not use the attack action. Similarly, manyshot clearly states that it is a standard action. The fact that standard action involves an attack roll and can do damage is no different than how a player could use a wand to cast a spell that involves an attack roll and can do damage; neither action qualifies for use with shot on the run.
jaelis 03-04-07, 03:32 PM	Here's what the FAQ says: Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, fullround actions, and free actions); it even describes things that are not actions and mentions restricted activity. Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So, what’s the correct answer? No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot together. It is true that no category of actions is called “attack actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook. It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t. Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some use-activated items would require the activate magic item action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to activate at all (see page 213 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide), so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both) with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items with Shot on the Run.
Tonil 03-04-07, 03:41 PM	Gol darn FAQ ruins all my fun. :weep: OK, objection withdrawn. Manyshot is a "special standard action," and "not a variant on the attack action" as I thought. Thanks Jaelis And Frugal, your point of spells being "attacks" even as they are clearly spells (and not subject to SotR) also is a good distinction I had not thought of. I was only thinking of different kinds of ranged attacks.
Frugal 03-04-07, 04:07 PM	Gol darn FAQ ruins all my fun. :weep: OK, objection withdrawn. Manyshot is a "special standard action," and "not a variant on the attack action" as I thought. Thanks Jaelis And Frugal, your point of spells being "attacks" even as they are clearly spells (and not subject to SotR) also is a good distinction I had not thought of. I was only thinking of different kinds of ranged attacks. Hey, it takes a bit man to admit when he's wrong. I know I've made the same mistake in assuming they worked together and then discovering they didn't. As I mentioned earlier, I could easily see making a house rule for this and I don't think it'd be the end of the world. Granted it could get a little ugly with a scout and greater manyshot.
Willie the Duck 03-04-07, 05:19 PM	It is also a situation where it is unclear why the worded it the way they did, especially since they worded it differently in flyby attack. Before the existence of the scout, there was very little reason that manyshotting SotR would be overpowered unless you considered either manyshot or SotR to be overpowered by themselves, since there was no real advantage to the synergy or that they were afraid of allowing you to use a standard attack with manyshot, because then you might use that standard attack to perform a special action like attacking an object, bull rushing, grappling, etc. (again, which you couldn't do until the release of another book, CW, so how does this make sense?). It also is intuitive that they would work together (If you can move before and after you shoot, and you can move and shoot multiple arrow, why can't you move before and after you shoot those multiple arrows?). Thus it appears to simply be unfortunate wording in the feats (that's why I had the, "now what the rules should be is a more arguable question," addendum to my explanation).
EvilVegan 03-04-07, 05:27 PM	I agree with the descriptions of SotR, it is the argument that Manyshot is not an attack action that I disagree with. I think I may have to agree to disagree. I fear I have highjacked this thread, so let me make one final point, then I will leave it alone. Amusingly enough I allow manyshot with shot on the run. . . But it's a house rule.