Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LietUnderwood 11-24-07, 03:20 AM	I liked the book over all. I still have one burnning question: "Why does the feat *weapon finese* have a prerequisite of +1 bab, 13+dex ?" :confused: 1* this feat should be availaible to ALL first level characters. as it stands now, high dexterity and low strength characters (*rogues, monks, soul knives, battle dancers, etc.) need to wait until 3rd level before they can consider entering melee combat. I mean it, high dexterity monks, only cool after they can get this feat. and my not so burning question. "What happened to sheild bashing being an offhand attack, and thus eligible for the two weapon feat..? I am searching for the rule that sends sheild bashing back to second ed of somehow being a seperate action or an awkward move requiring odd rules. looking at the equipment rules in the 3.5 phb though... a shield bash is an off hand attack and that is it. no muss-no fuss... so who skrewed it up so badly that the agile shield fighter feat had to be invented? can I get an official ruling on this item, or some "sage" to answer these questions?
LietUnderwood 11-24-07, 12:40 PM	let me throw this idea out there... regarding weapon finese, why not make it the base feat of a chain for some cool moves/attacks? power attack gets the nod for almost anything requireing brute force... so where are the feats for being slick, quick, and accurate?:cool:
LietUnderwood 11-28-07, 01:30 PM	Ahh, yes. 3rd is history. I am hoping there is some intelligent life in renton wa, though. as they might realize they need to correct a few things... lest we have 4.5 six months latter, no? but realy, think about it. how hard is it to realize someone might play a 20 dex elven monk (or rogue) with an 8 strength. that is a player who is going to go first every round- but can't do anything in combat. oops, bad game design. realize somebody, that some D.M's are completely draconian in using what is written, EXACTLY as it is shown in the book... no options allowed. so, you have a 20 dex. your also level 1. sucks to be you don't it?
WizO_Brak 11-28-07, 03:54 PM	Moved to Skills and Feats, where this thread should be. A couple of friendly pointers. 1) Someone stating that the thread belongs elsewhere isn't an attack, and it isn't bullying. It's their way of trying to help you get the best feedback for your thread. 2) Posting that a thread is in the wrong forum is off topic. If a thread needs to be moved please report it and move along. Responding to the thread with a post saying it's in the wrong spot isn't going to help the discussion, despite the best of intentions. ~Brak
Cartigan 11-28-07, 04:16 PM	Ahh, yes. 3rd is history. I am hoping there is some intelligent life in renton wa, though. as they might realize they need to correct a few things... lest we have 4.5 six months latter, no? but realy, think about it. how hard is it to realize someone might play a 20 dex elven monk (or rogue) with an 8 strength. that is a player who is going to go first every round- but can't do anything in combat. oops, bad game design. realize somebody, that some D.M's are completely draconian in using what is written, EXACTLY as it is shown in the book... no options allowed. so, you have a 20 dex. your also level 1. sucks to be you don't it? I would love to see that character to damage in melee -_-
Salla 11-28-07, 05:31 PM	I liked the book over all. I still have one burnning question: "Why does the feat *weapon finese* have a prerequisite of +1 bab, 13+dex ?" :confused: 1* this feat should be availaible to ALL first level characters. as it stands now, high dexterity and low strength characters (*rogues, monks, soul knives, battle dancers, etc.) need to wait until 3rd level before they can consider entering melee combat. I mean it, high dexterity monks, only cool after they can get this feat. It's a feat for characters who are primarily combatants (aka those with 1:1 Base Attack Bonus progressions), rather than skill monkeys like rogues, hit'n'runners like monks, and whatever it is soulknives do (besides reek). Since Dexterity affects quite a few more things than Strength does, it makes sense to have a feat that gives Dex something else to do a prerequisite. and my not so burning question. "What happened to sheild bashing being an offhand attack, and thus eligible for the two weapon feat..? I am searching for the rule that sends sheild bashing back to second ed of somehow being a seperate action or an awkward move requiring odd rules. looking at the equipment rules in the 3.5 phb though... a shield bash is an off hand attack and that is it. no muss-no fuss... so who skrewed it up so badly that the agile shield fighter feat had to be invented? can I get an official ruling on this item, or some "sage" to answer these questions? From the SRD: Shield Bash Attacks You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. You've always been able to do a TWF sword-shield move.
risner 11-28-07, 07:17 PM	"Why does the feat *weapon finese* have a prerequisite of +1 bab, 13+dex ?" Balance
sapient 11-28-07, 08:17 PM	To me the BAB +1 prerequsite makes perfect sense. Those classes that start with BAB +1 are (core only): Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger. Those that don't are: Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer and Wizard. It seems clear to me that those classes that start with BAB +0, are not very experienced in fighting - at all or at least melee style. Their training lie in other areas. In time they will learn - but a lot slower then those who are trained in a martial role. That does not mean that they cannot wield a light weapon. They can. But if they have a strength penalty, it will hamper their effectiveness. That is intentional. Weapon finesse represent having enough experience to overcome this drawback. The wizard or rogue that want it, will have to get that experience first. Even the cleric - even if it can be made into a powerful fighter in its own right - is a priest first and "spare fighter" second. His training has put handling ceremonies and spell casting before fighting.
Shadowfax7 11-28-07, 08:59 PM	Why is the Rules Compendium changing the prereqs for Weapon Finesse ?? The 3.5 PHB version doesn't have 13+ Dex as a prereq, nor in my opinion should it. I was under the impression that the Rules Compendium was only gathering rules together from various sources, not changing them.
archerpwr 11-28-07, 09:08 PM	Balance And Power Attack (a feat based off your bab) has a str prereq rather than a bab prereq why? IMO weapon finesse should have the prereq "dex 13" and PA should have the prereq "BAB 1" Just me though.
sapient 11-28-07, 09:50 PM	Why is the Rules Compendium changing the prereqs for Weapon Finesse ?? The 3.5 PHB version doesn't have 13+ Dex as a prereq, nor in my opinion should it. I was under the impression that the Rules Compendium was only gathering rules together from various sources, not changing them. Don't know. It could have been changed someplace else, or it could be a simple misprint in Rules Comp. But since many of the other combat feats have stat-requistites I guess it could be deliberate. What it does, is removing Weapon Finesse as an option for the character that has lousy strength but mediocre dexterity. (When one would want to avoid using the Str-modifier since it is negative but doesn't really have a positive Dex-modifier to add. Except if Dex is 12, but that is consistent with the other stat-dependent Feats...)
Pandapeep 11-28-07, 10:14 PM	I have forgot that prereq for Weapon Finesse so many times, it isn't funny. But, then again, I haven't played a 1st lvl game in.. ever? So, since my DMs don't pour over my sheet to see if feat order is perfect, it has never been an issue. That said, eh, its a pretty easy bit to cut out. After all, D&D rules are nothing if not mailable.
FrostHammer 11-28-07, 10:24 PM	I actually give weapon finess as a bonus feat for free to all of my players (and enemies). you should be able to choose your style of fighting, whether it is finess-based or not.
Cartigan 11-28-07, 10:48 PM	Balance Explain that. Are people who favor Dex not allowed to melee at all for several levels? I didn't realize a high Dex character being able to hit in melee for dismissible damage was "unbalanced." Maybe they should uncouple Str from damage so normal combat isn't unbalanced.
tyrecian 11-28-07, 11:13 PM	geez pick up a bow, its all about the rolls for 1-3rd anyways, if you are a rogue, you probably dont want to get into combat, since at 6-8 hps you are fodder anyways at 1st level. besides that -1 or -2 to your attack isnt that severe anyways at low levels, where you are fighting stuff with AC 12, etc. Added to that you get a +2 to attack from flanking, so as long as you enter melee wisely you shouldnt have any trouble negating your str modifier. lastly, after all those gobbies and kobolds, isnt it nice to earn a feat rather than whine into one? Although i must admit i am flabbergasted by the 13 dex req. Although it makes sense in a kind of weird way (who would use a feat with a 12 dex?) but still its odd, basically it means that if you are fighting and someone drops your dex below a certain point (ability loss) then you are revertin gto strength because you cannot maintain your dextrous maneuvers. I can understand the reasoning, but its kind of an arbitrary change, hehe. Seems they are doing that on more than one place. As i understand it, feint went back to 3.0 rules, whereby you no longer add the sense-motive checker's Base Attack to the roll? Rogues are getting worked back through it woudl seem.
Cartigan 11-28-07, 11:25 PM	That's really not the point. Obviously everyone else should have to have a feat at BAB +3 to apply their Strength to attack rolls, you know, for balance. See how little sense that makes?
InkBlot 11-29-07, 01:28 AM	so who skrewed it up so badly that the agile shield fighter feat had to be invented? The rules for shield bashing haven't changed since the 3.5 PHB was printed. A shield bash is still just an off-hand weapon, and you can still use the Two Weapon Fighting feats to get better at bashing things with shields. Agile Shield Fighter is a feat for characters who don't have a high enough Dex to get Two Weapon Fighting. A Crusader tank with a Dex of 9 can still take Agile Shield Fighter even though Two Weapon Fighting is out of his reach.
risner 11-29-07, 09:19 AM	Why is the Rules Compendium changing the prereqs for Weapon Finesse ?? I was under the impression that the Rules Compendium was only gathering rules together from various sources, not changing them. It isn't changing Weapon Finesse. You were under a false impression. Rules Compendium explicitly says it changes rules and has changed some rules. It was designed to be the most recent version of the rules, in effect, it was a paid Errata.