Quick Draw during AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Quick Draw during AoO? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeliriousYeti
07-20-07, 06:27 AM Since quick draw makes drawing a weapon a free action does that mean that you can draw a weapon then attack if you get an Attack of Opportunity?
Novabomb
07-20-07, 06:33 AM If your not holding a weapon, then you do not generally threaten any squares. If you do not threaten any squares, how do you get an AOO in the first place?
DeliriousYeti
07-20-07, 06:35 AM Hrm that answers my question then. :)
Leilond
07-20-07, 06:38 AM More important
Free action can be done only during your turns. Thus, it doesn't matter if you threaten or not, you cannot use quick draw during opponent turn
The only "quick" action that can be performed during opponent turns are those defined as "immediate actions" and "nonactions"
Alyss
07-20-07, 06:48 AM Darn. It sounded really cool too...
Nom
07-20-07, 09:05 AM Free action can be done only during your turns.Not strictly correct. Some free actions can be used out-of-turn. However, you are correct in nothing that Quick Draw isn't one of them.
Thus, it doesn't matter if you threaten or not, you cannot use quick draw during opponent turn
Leilond
07-20-07, 09:06 AM Not strictly correct. Some free actions can be used out-of-turn.
It look like I lost some rule
Which action that isn't an "immediate action" or a "nonaction" can be performed during opponent's tunrs?
runestar
07-20-07, 09:15 AM What do you mean by non-actions? I only know of speaking - does that count as one?
Millennium
07-20-07, 09:22 AM If your not holding a weapon, then you do not generally threaten any squares. If you do not threaten any squares, how do you get an AOO in the first place?
Monks can do it, since their unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. I'm not sure anyone else can, though; Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem to give you that ability by itself.
Leilond
07-20-07, 09:26 AM What do you mean by non-actions? I only know of speaking - does that count as one?

Ok... "not an action" is defined in the PHB at page 139
All action that do not require any real time to be performed can be considered "not an action", like "close my eyes". The FAQ say that you can perform any action like this whenever you want, even if you're flat-footed (not if you're surprised)
I don't know if "talking in the opponent turn" can be considered "nonactions"... I will do until you say only a very short sentence
tarkin
07-20-07, 09:28 AM Monks can do it, since their unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. I'm not sure anyone else can, though; Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem to give you that ability by itself.

Even a Monk can not use quickdraw. As others stated it is a free action and like almost all free actions (speaking being the main exception) can not be done outside of your turn
foxtail
07-20-07, 10:23 AM Even a Monk can not use quickdraw. As others stated it is a free action and like almost all free actions (speaking being the main exception) can not be done outside of your turn

I'm pretty sure Millenium was referring to the fact that monks don't need to quickdraw in that situation; their weapons are always out.

In general, if you want to take advantage of every AoO you can, invest in some armor spikes, which are also always ready to go. And if you haven't had a chance to draw a weapon, you likely haven't taken your combat action yet; Combat Reflexes will take care of that problem.

Also, there is a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that will let you draw a weapon as part of an AoO, provided that weapon had been concealed by your Sleight Of Hand skill. It makes your target lose his Dex bonus to defense as well.
Nom
07-21-07, 09:00 PM The FAQ say that you can perform any action like this whenever you want, even if you're flat-footed (not if you're surprised)Actually, the text "not an action" appears only 3 times in the FAQ as of 18 May 07. Two of them simply describe certain activities as "not an action" (converting spell to cure, touch attack as part of casting a spell). The third notes that closing the eyes to avoid a gaze attack is "not an action", and that this can be done at any time, even when flat-footed or out of turn.

"Not an action" isn't a category that is "faster" than a free action, but something that is subsumed into another activity or a reaction. Being forbidden from taking actions prevents free actions, but doesn't inherently prevent "not an actions". Reactions are allowed unless explicitly prohibited, while many "not an actions" are prohibited implicitly because they are always performed as part of other actions.

In contrast, "free actions" are distinct actions, but require negligible effort and (often) may be spliced into other actions. A few free actions are explicitly allowed to be taken out of turn.
DinwathSereglin
07-22-07, 01:33 PM I'd let you do it if you had Combat Reflexes.
Tallow
07-22-07, 02:21 PM Actually, the text "not an action" appears only 3 times in the FAQ as of 18 May 07. Two of them simply describe certain activities as "not an action" (converting spell to cure, touch attack as part of casting a spell). The third notes that closing the eyes to avoid a gaze attack is "not an action", and that this can be done at any time, even when flat-footed or out of turn.

"Not an action" isn't a category that is "faster" than a free action, but something that is subsumed into another activity or a reaction. Being forbidden from taking actions prevents free actions, but doesn't inherently prevent "not an actions". Reactions are allowed unless explicitly prohibited, while many "not an actions" are prohibited implicitly because they are always performed as part of other actions.

In contrast, "free actions" are distinct actions, but require negligible effort and (often) may be spliced into other actions. A few free actions are explicitly allowed to be taken out of turn.

Warlock applying Eldritch Essence and Blast Shape invocations to their Eldritch blasts are considered non-actions as well.
InkBlot
07-22-07, 10:27 PM I usually make this feat available in games I run.

SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER]
You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as an immediate action, quickly enough to make an attack of opportunity. As long as you have a weapon available to draw and an immediate action to draw it with, you threaten an area as if you were armed.

You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. You can sheath a weapon as a swift action.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Rhatahema
07-22-07, 10:55 PM In addition to the skill-trick mentioned by foxtail, the Mercurial Strike feat from DR#310 allows you to draw your weapon when you are unarmed to attack an opponent that provokes an AoO, causing them to be flat-footed for that attack as well.
Nom
07-23-07, 02:38 AM I usually make this feat available in games I run.

SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER]
You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity.
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as an immediate action, quickly enough to make an attack of opportunity. As long as you have a weapon available to draw and an immediate action to draw it with, you threaten an area as if you were armed.

You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. You can sheath a weapon as a swift action.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.:eek:

Except for thrown weapon users, that's way better than Quick Draw. Leaving aside any mechanical issues, it should have Quick Draw as a pre-req unless you're trying to remove Quick Draw.

Stylistically, this feat has the same problem as threatening with bows. Threatening assumes that the opponent is passively engaging you in melee, not merely standing there with the option of doing so.

Mechanically, the issue is not so much AoOs, but other "threatening" based mechanics. Specifically flanking. Using this feat, a character can provide a flanking bonus without actually having any mechanism to attack with. "I could threaten if I wanted to" and "I currently threaten" should be treated as mechanically distinct states.

Cleaner version:
SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER]
You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Quick Draw
Benefit: You can draw and ready a weapon as an immediate action, and you immediately threaten adjacent squares when you do so. You can do this quickly enough to (for example) grant an ally a flanking bonus or exploit an attack of opportunity potentially being provoked by an opponent.

Special: As part of performing this action, you may drop one or more items that you are currently holding. You may do this even if you don't draw a weapon, but this still consumes your immediate action. If you drop an item to prevent an opponent disarming or sundering it, the opponent may resolve the attempt against the now unattended item or against the weapon you have just drawn.
I've removed references to quick sheathing. This is an esoteric ability that should require a separate feat.
StruckingFuggle
07-23-07, 03:53 AM This is an esoteric ability that should require a separate feat.

Why should quick sheathing alone require a separate feat?
Rolof
07-25-07, 12:46 AM Reading this topic has me confused on free actions, and the speed thereof. I
was under the impression that free actions were faster than immediate ones,
and immediate faster than swift ones. Yet a number of responders to the OP's
topic have stated that AoO won't happen because the character couldn't use
a free action to draw their weapon out of turn.

As a basis for me thinking this, and not giving the impression that I just pulled
it out of thin air, I have a number of things that show a precedent for it being
true:

1) Arrow mind spell: Allows AoO with a bow. However, drawing an arrow is a
free action...so am I to understand that the spell should include the caveat of
"allows AoO with a bow IF the character already had an arrow nocked"? What
if the character has combat reflexes, and the arrow mind spell going? Do they
only get 1 AoO with a bow, or up to dex bonus as per usual? That would be
multiple arrows drawn from a quiver, multiple free actions out of turn.

2) The returning magic weapon ability: "It returns to the thrower just BEFORE
the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn).
Catching a returning weapon WHEN IT COMES BACK is a free action." Another
example of a free action out of turn.

3) Instantaneous rage feat: "Your rage begins at any time you wish, EVEN
WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR TURN or when you're surprised. You can activate your
rage AS A FREE ACTION..."

There are many other examples, this is just a few of them. Can somebody
clarify this for me, or should I maybe make a new topic for it?

Getting back to the OP's topic; it would therefore appear to me that IF you
already satisfied the condition of 'threatening' by either having the unarmed
strike feat, or a different weapon, one COULD use a free action to draw their
weapon and attack with it. As stated by others though, it would appear that
it could NOT be done if the weapon to be drawn is what the character wants
to rely on to satisfy the 'threatening' condition.

Somewhat off the OP's topic, but related: Drawing an arrow from a quiver is
a free action, so, given that, could a bow-wielding character technically draw
an 'extra arrow' beyond their rate of fire at the end of their turn, and then
qualify as 'threatening' by virture of wielding an improvised weapon in one hand?
runestar
07-25-07, 05:59 AM Reading this topic has me confused on free actions, and the speed thereof. I was under the impression that free actions were faster than immediate ones, and immediate faster than swift ones.

Free, swift and immediate actions all use the same amount of time.

Free actions can only be performed during your round (unless stated otherwise), but there is no hard limit on how many free actions you can execute (save for dm fiat).

Swift actions are like free actions, just that you can only use 1 each round, and only on your round.

Immediate actions are essentially swift actions, except that they can be performed at any time, but are subject to the same 1/round limit as well.
Leilond
07-25-07, 06:10 AM 1) Arrow mind spell: Allows AoO with a bow. However, drawing an arrow is a free action...so am I to understand that the spell should include the caveat of "allows AoO with a bow IF the character already had an arrow nocked"? What if the character has combat reflexes, and the arrow mind spell going? Do they only get 1 AoO with a bow, or up to dex bonus as per usual? That would be multiple arrows drawn from a quiver, multiple free actions out of turn.

Drawing an arrow is a free action "included in yuor attack". It is completely different form a normal free action. It is "part of another action"

2) The returning magic weapon ability: "It returns to the thrower just BEFORE the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon WHEN IT COMES BACK is a free action." Another example of a free action out of turn.

Anothere "special rule" that state when can be used

3) Instantaneous rage feat: "Your rage begins at any time you wish, EVEN WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR TURN or when you're surprised. You can activate your rage AS A FREE ACTION..."

Anothere special rule that clearly state that you can do it outside your turn

The rule is
Every action can be performed only during your turn, except when otherwise stated

The rules you quoted report the exception. The fact that it is reported "you can use outside your turn" demostrate that you cannot usually do it
If the rule was "you can do a free action outside your turn" it wasn't necessary to clarify in the "istantaneous rage" rule that you can use it "outside your turn"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeliriousYeti 07-20-07, 06:27 AM	Since quick draw makes drawing a weapon a free action does that mean that you can draw a weapon then attack if you get an Attack of Opportunity?
Novabomb 07-20-07, 06:33 AM	If your not holding a weapon, then you do not generally threaten any squares. If you do not threaten any squares, how do you get an AOO in the first place?
DeliriousYeti 07-20-07, 06:35 AM	Hrm that answers my question then. :)
Leilond 07-20-07, 06:38 AM	More important Free action can be done only during your turns. Thus, it doesn't matter if you threaten or not, you cannot use quick draw during opponent turn The only "quick" action that can be performed during opponent turns are those defined as "immediate actions" and "nonactions"
Alyss 07-20-07, 06:48 AM	Darn. It sounded really cool too...
Nom 07-20-07, 09:05 AM	Free action can be done only during your turns.Not strictly correct. Some free actions can be used out-of-turn. However, you are correct in nothing that Quick Draw isn't one of them. Thus, it doesn't matter if you threaten or not, you cannot use quick draw during opponent turn
Leilond 07-20-07, 09:06 AM	Not strictly correct. Some free actions can be used out-of-turn. It look like I lost some rule Which action that isn't an "immediate action" or a "nonaction" can be performed during opponent's tunrs?
runestar 07-20-07, 09:15 AM	What do you mean by non-actions? I only know of speaking - does that count as one?
Millennium 07-20-07, 09:22 AM	If your not holding a weapon, then you do not generally threaten any squares. If you do not threaten any squares, how do you get an AOO in the first place? Monks can do it, since their unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. I'm not sure anyone else can, though; Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem to give you that ability by itself.
Leilond 07-20-07, 09:26 AM	What do you mean by non-actions? I only know of speaking - does that count as one? Ok... "not an action" is defined in the PHB at page 139 All action that do not require any real time to be performed can be considered "not an action", like "close my eyes". The FAQ say that you can perform any action like this whenever you want, even if you're flat-footed (not if you're surprised) I don't know if "talking in the opponent turn" can be considered "nonactions"... I will do until you say only a very short sentence
tarkin 07-20-07, 09:28 AM	Monks can do it, since their unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. I'm not sure anyone else can, though; Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't seem to give you that ability by itself. Even a Monk can not use quickdraw. As others stated it is a free action and like almost all free actions (speaking being the main exception) can not be done outside of your turn
foxtail 07-20-07, 10:23 AM	Even a Monk can not use quickdraw. As others stated it is a free action and like almost all free actions (speaking being the main exception) can not be done outside of your turn I'm pretty sure Millenium was referring to the fact that monks don't need to quickdraw in that situation; their weapons are always out. In general, if you want to take advantage of every AoO you can, invest in some armor spikes, which are also always ready to go. And if you haven't had a chance to draw a weapon, you likely haven't taken your combat action yet; Combat Reflexes will take care of that problem. Also, there is a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that will let you draw a weapon as part of an AoO, provided that weapon had been concealed by your Sleight Of Hand skill. It makes your target lose his Dex bonus to defense as well.
Nom 07-21-07, 09:00 PM	The FAQ say that you can perform any action like this whenever you want, even if you're flat-footed (not if you're surprised)Actually, the text "not an action" appears only 3 times in the FAQ as of 18 May 07. Two of them simply describe certain activities as "not an action" (converting spell to cure, touch attack as part of casting a spell). The third notes that closing the eyes to avoid a gaze attack is "not an action", and that this can be done at any time, even when flat-footed or out of turn. "Not an action" isn't a category that is "faster" than a free action, but something that is subsumed into another activity or a reaction. Being forbidden from taking actions prevents free actions, but doesn't inherently prevent "not an actions". Reactions are allowed unless explicitly prohibited, while many "not an actions" are prohibited implicitly because they are always performed as part of other actions. In contrast, "free actions" are distinct actions, but require negligible effort and (often) may be spliced into other actions. A few free actions are explicitly allowed to be taken out of turn.
DinwathSereglin 07-22-07, 01:33 PM	I'd let you do it if you had Combat Reflexes.
Tallow 07-22-07, 02:21 PM	Actually, the text "not an action" appears only 3 times in the FAQ as of 18 May 07. Two of them simply describe certain activities as "not an action" (converting spell to cure, touch attack as part of casting a spell). The third notes that closing the eyes to avoid a gaze attack is "not an action", and that this can be done at any time, even when flat-footed or out of turn. "Not an action" isn't a category that is "faster" than a free action, but something that is subsumed into another activity or a reaction. Being forbidden from taking actions prevents free actions, but doesn't inherently prevent "not an actions". Reactions are allowed unless explicitly prohibited, while many "not an actions" are prohibited implicitly because they are always performed as part of other actions. In contrast, "free actions" are distinct actions, but require negligible effort and (often) may be spliced into other actions. A few free actions are explicitly allowed to be taken out of turn. Warlock applying Eldritch Essence and Blast Shape invocations to their Eldritch blasts are considered non-actions as well.
InkBlot 07-22-07, 10:27 PM	I usually make this feat available in games I run. SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER] You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity. Prerequisite: Dex 13 Benefit: You can draw a weapon as an immediate action, quickly enough to make an attack of opportunity. As long as you have a weapon available to draw and an immediate action to draw it with, you threaten an area as if you were armed. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. You can sheath a weapon as a swift action. Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Rhatahema 07-22-07, 10:55 PM	In addition to the skill-trick mentioned by foxtail, the Mercurial Strike feat from DR#310 allows you to draw your weapon when you are unarmed to attack an opponent that provokes an AoO, causing them to be flat-footed for that attack as well.
Nom 07-23-07, 02:38 AM	I usually make this feat available in games I run. SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER] You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity. Prerequisite: Dex 13 Benefit: You can draw a weapon as an immediate action, quickly enough to make an attack of opportunity. As long as you have a weapon available to draw and an immediate action to draw it with, you threaten an area as if you were armed. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. You can sheath a weapon as a swift action. Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.:eek: Except for thrown weapon users, that's way better than Quick Draw. Leaving aside any mechanical issues, it should have Quick Draw as a pre-req unless you're trying to remove Quick Draw. Stylistically, this feat has the same problem as threatening with bows. Threatening assumes that the opponent is passively engaging you in melee, not merely standing there with the option of doing so. Mechanically, the issue is not so much AoOs, but other "threatening" based mechanics. Specifically flanking. Using this feat, a character can provide a flanking bonus without actually having any mechanism to attack with. "I could threaten if I wanted to" and "I currently threaten" should be treated as mechanically distinct states. Cleaner version: SWIFT DRAW [FIGHTER] You can draw a weapon fast enough to take advantage of every opportunity. Prerequisite: Dex 13, Quick Draw Benefit: You can draw and ready a weapon as an immediate action, and you immediately threaten adjacent squares when you do so. You can do this quickly enough to (for example) grant an ally a flanking bonus or exploit an attack of opportunity potentially being provoked by an opponent. Special: As part of performing this action, you may drop one or more items that you are currently holding. You may do this even if you don't draw a weapon, but this still consumes your immediate action. If you drop an item to prevent an opponent disarming or sundering it, the opponent may resolve the attempt against the now unattended item or against the weapon you have just drawn. I've removed references to quick sheathing. This is an esoteric ability that should require a separate feat.
StruckingFuggle 07-23-07, 03:53 AM	This is an esoteric ability that should require a separate feat. Why should quick sheathing alone require a separate feat?
Rolof 07-25-07, 12:46 AM	Reading this topic has me confused on free actions, and the speed thereof. I was under the impression that free actions were faster than immediate ones, and immediate faster than swift ones. Yet a number of responders to the OP's topic have stated that AoO won't happen because the character couldn't use a free action to draw their weapon out of turn. As a basis for me thinking this, and not giving the impression that I just pulled it out of thin air, I have a number of things that show a precedent for it being true: 1) Arrow mind spell: Allows AoO with a bow. However, drawing an arrow is a free action...so am I to understand that the spell should include the caveat of "allows AoO with a bow IF the character already had an arrow nocked"? What if the character has combat reflexes, and the arrow mind spell going? Do they only get 1 AoO with a bow, or up to dex bonus as per usual? That would be multiple arrows drawn from a quiver, multiple free actions out of turn. 2) The returning magic weapon ability: "It returns to the thrower just BEFORE the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon WHEN IT COMES BACK is a free action." Another example of a free action out of turn. 3) Instantaneous rage feat: "Your rage begins at any time you wish, EVEN WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR TURN or when you're surprised. You can activate your rage AS A FREE ACTION..." There are many other examples, this is just a few of them. Can somebody clarify this for me, or should I maybe make a new topic for it? Getting back to the OP's topic; it would therefore appear to me that IF you already satisfied the condition of 'threatening' by either having the unarmed strike feat, or a different weapon, one COULD use a free action to draw their weapon and attack with it. As stated by others though, it would appear that it could NOT be done if the weapon to be drawn is what the character wants to rely on to satisfy the 'threatening' condition. Somewhat off the OP's topic, but related: Drawing an arrow from a quiver is a free action, so, given that, could a bow-wielding character technically draw an 'extra arrow' beyond their rate of fire at the end of their turn, and then qualify as 'threatening' by virture of wielding an improvised weapon in one hand?
runestar 07-25-07, 05:59 AM	Reading this topic has me confused on free actions, and the speed thereof. I was under the impression that free actions were faster than immediate ones, and immediate faster than swift ones. Free, swift and immediate actions all use the same amount of time. Free actions can only be performed during your round (unless stated otherwise), but there is no hard limit on how many free actions you can execute (save for dm fiat). Swift actions are like free actions, just that you can only use 1 each round, and only on your round. Immediate actions are essentially swift actions, except that they can be performed at any time, but are subject to the same 1/round limit as well.
Leilond 07-25-07, 06:10 AM	1) Arrow mind spell: Allows AoO with a bow. However, drawing an arrow is a free action...so am I to understand that the spell should include the caveat of "allows AoO with a bow IF the character already had an arrow nocked"? What if the character has combat reflexes, and the arrow mind spell going? Do they only get 1 AoO with a bow, or up to dex bonus as per usual? That would be multiple arrows drawn from a quiver, multiple free actions out of turn. Drawing an arrow is a free action "included in yuor attack". It is completely different form a normal free action. It is "part of another action" 2) The returning magic weapon ability: "It returns to the thrower just BEFORE the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon WHEN IT COMES BACK is a free action." Another example of a free action out of turn. Anothere "special rule" that state when can be used 3) Instantaneous rage feat: "Your rage begins at any time you wish, EVEN WHEN IT'S NOT YOUR TURN or when you're surprised. You can activate your rage AS A FREE ACTION..." Anothere special rule that clearly state that you can do it outside your turn The rule is Every action can be performed only during your turn, except when otherwise stated The rules you quoted report the exception. The fact that it is reported "you can use outside your turn" demostrate that you cannot usually do it If the rule was "you can do a free action outside your turn" it wasn't necessary to clarify in the "istantaneous rage" rule that you can use it "outside your turn"