Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Teiresias 04-05-07, 05:57 PM	I'm playing a 7th level Asherati Scorpion Heritor with the Flick of the Wrist Feat wielding a collapsing crescent fan, and I'm running into a snag. I'd like to be able to approach one enemy, quick draw + flick + sneak + skirmish. Then sheath + tumble if necessary + move down the line + repeat against next foe ad nauseum. The problem is I'm being told by my GM that I can't sheath as a free action: He correctly points out that the PHB allows a draw as a free action, but not a sheath. Moreover, the Quick Draw feat--that is prereq to Flick of the Wrist--does not address sheathing the weapon. The whole issue was complicated by the RPGA FAQ where it explicitly says draw & sheath are free actions during movement with a +1 Bab in a question about Quick Draw. So, my questions are: How would most of you GM's rule on this? Would sheathing in my circumstances be a free action or a move action? Assuming it's a move action, is there a way to accomplish what I'd like to without wasting a turn?
SunTzuWarmaster 04-05-07, 06:07 PM	A character in our campaign uses the above trick. He throws masterwork daggers (for the +1 to hit), such that sheathing is not an issue. Your primary source of damage isn't weapon damage, so why not just throw rocks?
Loki5654 04-05-07, 06:07 PM	So, my questions are: How would most of you GM's rule on this? Would sheathing in my circumstances be a free action or a move action? Move action. Assuming it's a move action, is there a way to accomplish what I'd like to without wasting a turn? Have more than one weapon available to Quick Draw. Sheathing a weapon may be a Move Action but dropping one is a Free Action.
Loki5654 04-05-07, 06:08 PM	A character in our campaign uses the above trick. He throws masterwork daggers (for the +1 to hit), such that sheathing is not an issue. Your primary source of damage isn't weapon damage, so why not just throw rocks? Despite its name, Flick of the Wrist is for melee attacks only. Personally, I usually house-rule and allow thrown weapons, but that's just me.
CantripN 04-05-07, 06:14 PM	Despite its name, Flick of the Wrist is for melee attacks only. Personally, I usually house-rule and allow thrown weapons, but that's just me. Aye, I'd just watched V for Vendetta and thought of that... V is quite awesome. I'll probably base my next villain on him... He's CN or CG or LG or NG, I'd say. Hard to tell.
Captain_Kobold 04-05-07, 06:17 PM	Seems fairly self explanatory. Sheathing a weapon is a move action. You could however sheath the weapon as a free action in your movement on to the next opponent, even as part of a tumble I believe. Assuming that your DM doesn't rule that your next opponent is not going to be caught off guard because it saw what you did with the first one of course. ;)
Loki5654 04-05-07, 06:22 PM	You could however sheath the weapon as a free action in your movement on to the next opponent, even as part of a tumble I believe. Unfortunately, no. Draw or Sheathe a Weapon Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action. While it is possible to draw a weapon as part of a move, it is not possible to sheathe one, at least according to the RAW.
Teiresias 04-05-07, 06:30 PM	A character in our campaign uses the above trick. He throws masterwork daggers (for the +1 to hit), such that sheathing is not an issue. Your primary source of damage isn't weapon damage, so why not just throw rocks? My GM would rule that Flick is melee only. Plus, I heart my fan :)
Teiresias 04-05-07, 06:33 PM	Move action. Have more than one weapon available to Quick Draw. Sheathing a weapon may be a Move Action but dropping one is a Free Action. Yes, this problem will be solved at 9th level when I go Exotic Weapons Master and pick up two weapon fighting + buckler defense. I'm looking for a more immediate answer...And I don't want to drop a +1 soon-to-be-flaming or keen fan. :(
Teiresias 04-05-07, 06:35 PM	Assuming that your DM doesn't rule that your next opponent is not going to be caught off guard because it saw what you did with the first one of course. ;) This doesn't seem to be a problem--mostly because the Flick description allows its use against more than one opponent in a round--and doesn't address the whole sleight-of-hand (5 ranks required for Flick) aspect.
Cartigan 04-05-07, 06:44 PM	While it is possible to draw a weapon as part of a move, it is not possible to sheathe one, at least according to the RAW. Well besides the fact sheathing a weapon and drawing one are entirely different actions, I don't see why you couldn't do it with light weapons while moving.
Loki5654 04-05-07, 06:48 PM	I'm looking for a more immediate answer...And I don't want to drop a +1 soon-to-be-flaming or keen fan. :( Then don't. Just buy yourself a few normal fans and have them ready for situations like this. That way you can keep your main fan with you and drop the normals for your "parade of death" manuever. Sure, you sacrifice a little attack bonus and some damage, but its really the only way to get things to work for you.
Captain_Kobold 04-05-07, 07:15 PM	Hmm. I was going by the 3.5 FAQ: Does Quick Draw (Player’s Handbook, page 98) allow you to sheathe a weapon as a free action? No. Quick Draw clearly states that it allows you to “draw a weapon as a free action.” Nowhere does it suggest anything about sheathing a weapon more quickly than normal (a move action). You may be confusing Quick Draw with the ability of any character with a base attack bonus of +1 or better to draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action as part of movement (Player’s Handbook, page 142). While these functions are similar and overlap to some extent, they are different. Having checked the PHB, I notice it only mentions drawing weapons. Guess its up to the DM to decide which source to trust.
1hitparry 04-05-07, 07:22 PM	Does sneak stand for sneak attack? I hope so because you don't need flick of the wrist for skirmish. I don't DM but I would rule that sheathing a weapon is a move action at best. The reason being, there's only one weapon I know of that you can sheath as a free action (Gnome Quickrazor or something). Not only is it an exotic weapon, it's highly specialized. Attacking with it is most effective when drawing and sheathing with each attack. Attaking with it as if it were a regular dagger imparts a -2 to attack. That said, allowing any weapon to be sheathed as a free action would make that weapon uselss. I would be okay, though, with basing the fan off that weapon.
Teiresias 04-05-07, 07:23 PM	Hmm. I was going by the 3.5 FAQ: Does Quick Draw (Player’s Handbook, page 98) allow you to sheathe a weapon as a free action? No. Quick Draw clearly states that it allows you to “draw a weapon as a free action.” Nowhere does it suggest anything about sheathing a weapon more quickly than normal (a move action). You may be confusing Quick Draw with the ability of any character with a base attack bonus of +1 or better to draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action as part of movement (Player’s Handbook, page 142). While these functions are similar and overlap to some extent, they are different. Having checked the PHB, I notice it only mentions drawing weapons. Guess its up to the DM to decide which source to trust. Exactly, and mine rejected the FAQ in favor of the PHB.
Loki5654 04-05-07, 07:32 PM	Exactly, and mine rejected the FAQ in favor of the PHB. Well, it could also be said that they upheld the rules as written despite one person's unofficial interpretation.
Cartigan 04-05-07, 07:35 PM	Exactly, and mine rejected the FAQ in favor of the PHB. But that still leaves you the ability to sheathe a weapon with a +1 BAB as a free action during a move.
Teiresias 04-05-07, 08:03 PM	Does sneak stand for sneak attack? I hope so because you don't need flick of the wrist for skirmish. I don't DM but I would rule that sheathing a weapon is a move action at best. The reason being, there's only one weapon I know of that you can sheath as a free action (Gnome Quickrazor or something). Not only is it an exotic weapon, it's highly specialized. Attacking with it is most effective when drawing and sheathing with each attack. Attaking with it as if it were a regular dagger imparts a -2 to attack. That said, allowing any weapon to be sheathed as a free action would make that weapon uselss. I would be okay, though, with basing the fan off that weapon. I do mean sneak attack, and I also have a level of scout. I'm trying to get both the sneak attack and the skirmish simultaneously. One argument I've tried to make is that I'm sheathing it up my sleeve. But the warfans are pretty big for that.
Teiresias 04-05-07, 08:05 PM	Well, it could also be said that they upheld the rules as written despite one person's unofficial interpretation. Devil's advocate! :mad:
Loki5654 04-05-07, 08:12 PM	Devil's advocate! :mad: Or I could just be one of the few who are willing to admit (and accept) that the "Sage" isn't always 100% right (or official). That is not to say that I hold firm to the RAW all the time. I frequently use the FAQ when and where I think the "Sage" happens to be right. I also make house-rules based on my own interpretations (like the darkness spell, for example). Regardless, I think your DM made the right call. Sorry if that takes the wind out of your sails.
Cartigan 04-05-07, 08:25 PM	I do mean sneak attack, and I also have a level of scout. I'm trying to get both the sneak attack and the skirmish simultaneously. One argument I've tried to make is that I'm sheathing it up my sleeve. But the warfans are pretty big for that. Your 7th level, sheathe it as a free action while moving.
UnknownMourner 04-05-07, 08:38 PM	"Your 7th level, sheathe it as a free action while moving." You may only draw a weapon for free in combination with a move.
Teiresias 04-05-07, 09:55 PM	Or I could just be one of the few who are willing to admit (and accept) that the "Sage" isn't always 100% right (or official). That is not to say that I hold firm to the RAW all the time. I frequently use the FAQ when and where I think the "Sage" happens to be right. I also make house-rules based on my own interpretations (like the darkness spell, for example). Regardless, I think your DM made the right call. Sorry if that takes the wind out of your sails. ***Checks, still has the wind gauge, continues on course*** Actually, you only confirm what I expected--though you do seem to enjoy raining on my parade :) I was hoping against hope that someone might have something really creative that I hadn't thought of. I guess it's back to the drawing board. Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely consider picking up additional cheap fans.
Cartigan 04-05-07, 10:07 PM	You may only draw a weapon for free in combination with a move. The FAQ answer says you can sheathe it as a free action during a move as well.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 02:25 AM	The FAQ answer says you can sheathe it as a free action during a move as well. The FAQ is: A) Written by one person using their interpretation of the rules. B) frequently wrong on many accounts and C) Not official. All of those add up to: Check with your DM first.
Aracor 04-06-07, 10:00 AM	The FAQ is: A) Written by one person using their interpretation of the rules. B) frequently wrong on many accounts and C) Not official. All of those add up to: Check with your DM first.OK, while I'll happily admit that the FAQ has some questionable rulings, it IS official. House rules are always an option, regardless of whether something is 'official' or 'RAW'. Frankly, I don't see any problem with sheathing as part of a move action, but that's my opinion.
1hitparry 04-06-07, 11:27 AM	If you can sheath as a free action, there's no point to ever buying a Gnome Quickrazor, a weapon you need a feat for, does poor damage, and incurs a -2 attack penalty when attacking with it conventionally. You also have to consider that sheathing usually incurs and AoO, though I don't know how AoOs work with the Quickrazor.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 11:36 AM	I don't see why you couldn't sheathe any light weapon as a free action during a move.
Frugal 04-06-07, 11:45 AM	But that still leaves you the ability to sheathe a weapon with a +1 BAB as a free action during a move. That was the point. The PHB only allows drawing as a free action as part of a move if you have at least +1 BAB. The FAQ incorrectly states that the PHB reference allows you to draw or sheathe a weapon as part of a move if you have at least +1 BAB. I'd agree with others that the FAQ is official but it does often contain rules mistakes. In this situation I'd say it's pretty clear he's misquoting the PHB.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 11:57 AM	OK, while I'll happily admit that the FAQ has some questionable rulings, it IS official. No, it is not. Nowhere in the FAQ document does it say that the interpretations of the "Sage" (who is, after all, only one person whose answers are not given any kind of review process) are official and binding. They are merely interpretations and suggested rulings. If they were meant to be official rule changes, they would have been added to the errata, not the FAQ. I don't see why you couldn't sheathe any light weapon as a free action during a move. Because the rules never say you can? I'd agree with others that the FAQ is official but it does often contain rules mistakes. But those mistakes are all the more reason to say that the FAQ isn't official.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 12:00 PM	Because the rules never say you can? When has that stopped anyone?
Loki5654 04-06-07, 12:06 PM	When has that stopped anyone? Well, in that case, I guess my character can fly to the moon by blinking really fast. Honestly, once you start ignoring what the RAW says, you fling wide open a dangerous door. Now I'm all for adjusting the rules to suit your needs/to increase fun. But I draw the line at allowing a character to do something that the rules say they can't.
Frugal 04-06-07, 12:38 PM	But those mistakes are all the more reason to say that the FAQ isn't official. I don't know, WOTC calls it official. Go to the page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) to get them, what's that say? "Official D&D Game Rule FAQ". Sounds official to me. I agree that their are rules mistakes. In this case it's not even with regards to a questionable ruling, it's simply misquoting the PHB in explanation of the answer. For that matter, if we're going to go by the mistakes make it unofficial reasoning than none of the WOTC books are official because they're full of mistakes.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 01:16 PM	I don't know, WOTC calls it official. Go to the page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) to get them, what's that say? "Official D&D Game Rule FAQ". Sounds official to me. They mean "official" in that it is the Wizards FAQ, that is, it is the FAQ sanctioned by the company. I could create my own D&D Game Rule FAQ and give out equally good (or better) answers, but it wouldn't be the "official" D&D FAQ. It is not official in the sense that it cannot change the RAW. That is what the errata are for, when a conflict between the FAQ and the RAW arises, the RAW always wins. I agree that their are rules mistakes. In this case it's not even with regards to a questionable ruling, it's simply misquoting the PHB in explanation of the answer. Yes, which makes it a good example of why the FAQ should not be treated as the be all and end all of rule interpretations. Don't get me wrong, I use and quote the FAQ all the time. I just don't treat it as having been carried down a mountain by an old man with a beard. You have to take each answer with the grain of salt that they are written by just one person who has little to no oversight. For that matter, if we're going to go by the mistakes make it unofficial reasoning than none of the WOTC books are official because they're full of mistakes. The mistakes are not what makes the FAQ unofficial. The fact that it is written by one person and is just their interpretation of the rules that makes it unofficial. Ask any of the FAQ here on the boards and you'll get answers of the same quality: decent advice, but completely unofficial. I fervently wish that Wizards would update and expand the errata but I guess cranking out 2-3 books a month takes too much of their time.
Qwicksilver 04-06-07, 02:35 PM	I've mentioned before that our group houserules that quick draw will allow you to sheathe as a swift action that provokes an AoO. Dunno if it's "broken" but I like to think that requiring an AoO to be provoked and limiting the sheathe to a swift action keeps things in check.
Eerongal 04-06-07, 02:58 PM	the *MAIN* problem i see with letting someone sheath easily (i.e. free action) is because of samurai's focused on ijutsu. What's to stop them from resheathing every round so that they can ijutsu all the time? Combine that with feint so that the enemy is flat-footed all the time, then all you have to do is feint (move action) ijutsu (standard action, isnt it? I dont know, dont have my books at easy access) and sheath (free) every round. Also, due to the enemies flat-footedness from feint, they do not get the aformementioned AoO from the sheathing. Also note that I'm by no means a master of Ijutsu, never used it, only saw others use it, so my opinion could be wrong here due to a misunderstanding of mine. I'm sure there's other potential problems with sheathing free, but this is the first thing that came to mind.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 05:01 PM	Well, in that case, I guess my character can fly to the moon by blinking really fast. Honestly, once you start ignoring what the RAW says, you fling wide open a dangerous door. There is a difference between what I propose and what you propose. There is no logical reason you couldn't sheathe a light weapon as part of a move action. Light weapons are sufficiently small enough that sheathing them wouldn't hinder movement.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 05:07 PM	There is a difference between what I propose and what you propose. There is no logical reason you couldn't sheathe a light weapon as part of a move action. Not even one-handed weapons. Light weapons are sufficiently small enough that sheathing them wouldn't hinder movement. It is physically more difficult to sheathe a weapon than in is to draw it. Drawing it is just "grab and go", while sheathing it involves steadying the sheath, lining up the weapon, and carefully sliding it into place. Moving around (in combat, no less) makes it all the more difficult.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 05:09 PM	It is physically more difficult to sheathe a weapon than in is to draw it. Which is why I said light weapons.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 05:15 PM	Which is why I said light weapons. Smaller weapon = Smaller Sheath = same problems.
Dheran 04-06-07, 06:30 PM	Smaller weapon = Smaller Sheath = same problems. No, not really. The main problem is getting the point into the tip of the sheath; after that the sheathe guides the blade along. The length of the weapon (the lever arm) multiplies your movements, meaning you need a slower, steadier action to get the tip of a long weapon into the sheathe opening. And, also, just a bit more time to slide the weapon all the way into the sheathe.
Amaya_Akira 04-06-07, 06:46 PM	What book are the feats in question from?
Shadowhowler 04-06-07, 07:12 PM	I don't see why you couldn't sheathe any light weapon as a free action during a move. Becuase it is much tricker to put a weapon back in it's place then it is to remove it... especialy on the run.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 08:00 PM	Smaller weapon = Smaller Sheath = same problems. Yes and no. Same problem on a much smaller scale. For those weapons with actual sheathes, you are still wielding something that you can hold in one hand, hold it's sheathe in the other, and put the two together in around a second with minor concentration. Becuase it is much tricker to put a weapon back in it's place then it is to remove it... especialy on the run. Even so, a light weapon is remarkably easier to sheathe than even one handed weapons, for those that would even have sheathes. The largest sheath needed light weapon I can think of is the dagger and the largest of those still would take dismissably minor concentration to get in the sheathe. Smaller weapon = Smaller Sheath = same problems. Then you don't actually understand why weapons are more difficult to sheathe than they are to draw at all.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 08:05 PM	Yes and no. Same problem on a much smaller scale. For those weapons with actual sheathes, you are still wielding something that you can hold in one, hold it's sheathe in the other, and put the two together in around a second with minor concentration. And to me, that "minor concentration" is worth a move-equivalent action, not a free action. If you tried to sheath a dagger while running around a battlefield dodging attacks and didn't have time to concentrate on it, I guarantee you'd stab your hand 9 times out of 10.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 08:09 PM	Yes and no. Same problem on a much smaller scale. For those weapons with actual sheathes, you are still wielding something that you can hold in one hand, hold it's sheathe in the other, and put the two together in around a second with minor concentration. Then you don't actually understand why weapons are more difficult to sheathe than they are to draw at all. You responded to my post twice. The first was an OK argument (which I disagree with) but at least it was civil. The second seems to me to be a passive insult to my intelligence. Please tell me I'm interpreting it wrong.
Cartigan 04-06-07, 08:10 PM	And to me, that "minor concentration" is worth a move-equivalent action, not a free action.Sheathing a light weapon would be as difficult as drawing a large weapon. If you tried to sheath a dagger while running around a battlefield dodging attacks and didn't have time to concentrate on it, I guarantee you'd stab your hand 9 times out of 10.And you would cut some part of your body off pulling a large or even one handed weapon. That is what skill and experience are meant to stave off. The second seems to me to be a passive insult to my intelligence. Please tell me I'm interpreting it wrong. Woops, missed the double response, didn't pay attention first time. The answer is maybe maybe not. It depends why you said what you did.
Loki5654 04-06-07, 08:11 PM	Sheathing a light weapon would be as difficult as drawing a large weapon. And you would cut some part of your body off pulling a large or even one handed weapon. That is what skill and experience are meant to stave off. OK, I give up. We're not changing each other's minds about this and we're just restating the same points over and over. Have fun with your house-rule. I'm done here.
Shadowhowler 04-06-07, 11:41 PM	Hm. Well, it seems, as is normaly the case here, we have two camps... those that belive re-sheathing a weapon should be as easy as drawing it, and those that belive otherwise. Also, there have been cases made back and forth, with little progress on either side. I, like Loki, am going to make one last post on my opinion on it, and then be done. From my own (admitedly limited) experince with bladed weapons... which consists of knives mostly... it simply is not as easy to sheath a weapon, especial not quickly, and certainly not while doing other things other then just putting the weapon back (IE moving, dodging attacks, preparing to make an attack) as it is to draw it. So I would not allow quickdraw to be used to re-sheath the weapon in the way it draws it. One mans opinion.
Cartigan 04-07-07, 09:06 AM	Well, it seems, as is normaly the case here, we have two camps... those that belive re-sheathing a weapon should be as easy as drawing it, Wrong. Sheathing a weapon is not as easy as drawing it; however, sheathing a light weapon (dagger, nunchaku, light mace, sai, etc) while "on the run" would be about as difficult as drawing something like a Falchion or Orc Double Axe while "on the run."
Teiresias 04-09-07, 09:22 AM	the *MAIN* problem i see with letting someone sheath easily (i.e. free action) is because of samurai's focused on ijutsu. What's to stop them from resheathing every round so that they can ijutsu all the time? Combine that with feint so that the enemy is flat-footed all the time, then all you have to do is feint (move action) ijutsu (standard action, isnt it? I dont know, dont have my books at easy access) and sheath (free) every round. Also, due to the enemies flat-footedness from feint, they do not get the aformementioned AoO from the sheathing. Also note that I'm by no means a master of Ijutsu, never used it, only saw others use it, so my opinion could be wrong here due to a misunderstanding of mine. I'm sure there's other potential problems with sheathing free, but this is the first thing that came to mind. You've hit the nail on the head! :D This is what I'm trying to accomplish with the flick-of-the-wrist--which makes the opponent flat-footed, which gives me a +4 to hit with my fan, + sneak attack, and skirmish if I've moved 10. I ran into this situation in RHOD where I wanted to roll up about 4 guys--but the whole maneuver was stopped by the sheath issue--because our interpretation of flick-of-the-writst is that you have to re-sheath between uses.
Teiresias 04-09-07, 09:25 AM	What book are the feats in question from? IIRC: Quick Draw = PHB Flick-of-the-Wrist = Complete Warrior and Races of the Wild?
Harliquinn 04-10-07, 11:10 AM	The FAQ answer says you can sheathe it as a free action during a move as well. The FAQ refers to the PHB page number which explicitly states only drawing is a free action with a move. The FAQ mention of sheathing as a free action is wrong.
Frugal 04-10-07, 11:49 AM	The FAQ refers to the PHB page number which explicitly states only drawing is a free action with a move. The FAQ mention of sheathing as a free action is wrong. Yep, and it also has nothing to do with the actual answer to the question. I think it's great that they add things to the FAQ regularly (although now it seems like they're mainly just recycling the ask wizards questions, but it's nice to have them in there too) but I wish they'd also go back and fix little errors like this.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-10-07, 12:04 PM	And this is why some people maintain that the "Sage" should be replaced by some of the ruleslawyers from these forums. The "Sage" is inconsistent when asked the same question some of the time. And, Loki is right that only the Errata is OFFICIAL - everything else is a suggestion.
Frugal 04-10-07, 12:29 PM	And this is why some people maintain that the "Sage" should be replaced by some of the ruleslawyers from these forums. The "Sage" is inconsistent when asked the same question some of the time. I do agree that he's wrong at times, sometimes blatantly so, and I'd love to see some better checking of the rules before answers are posted. But then again, I could say the same thing about any new WOTC release. And, Loki is right that only the Errata is OFFICIAL - everything else is a suggestion. As I said, the FAQ doesn't change the rules, which is why it's not errata. Now I agree that it's telling you how the rules are intended to be interpreted. Much like any rule in the game, if you don't like it then change it. I still think it's better to default to following the interpretations of the FAQ and declare any deviations as house rules simply for the purposes of clarity. Just as you can't expect a new player to know your house rules you also can't expect him to know that you rule some things differently than the FAQ does. Spelling it out as a house rule will avoid any confusion and preserve consistency.
Shadowhowler 04-10-07, 02:10 PM	The FAQ only really serves one purpass... it's there to settle rules interpritations disputes when your DM dose not have enough sense or spine to do it himself, and wants to fall abck on someone eles opinion... preferably one thats at least simi official.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-10-07, 02:30 PM	I guess I can agree to that Frugal - when I typed my post it was directly in response to Loki. ;P Still , I dislike the "Sage because his interpretations often show only a rudimentary understanding of how the rules work together; not to mention individually.
Frugal 04-10-07, 02:35 PM	The FAQ only really serves one purpass... it's there to settle rules interpritations disputes when your DM dose not have enough sense or spine to do it himself, and wants to fall abck on someone eles opinion... preferably one thats at least simi official. Well, more or less. But it's also a nice central collection of rules interpretations like that. As a DM, that's really handy. I can just state my house rules as something like, "I follow all rulings in the FAQ" or "I follow all the rulings in the FAQ except for....." then any player who wants to look up a ruling on something odd can just pull up the FAQ and see how it'll be interpreted in my campaign. Now I might make sure to state which version of the FAQ I'm referring to and let my players know when a new FAQ comes out and how I rule on new entries or changes to the FAQ but it's extremely convenient for that type of thing. Similarly, as a player it makes it extremely convenient because if I'm joining a new group I can just ask, "do you guys follow the FAQ?" and then I know what they think about a whole host of rules questions, a lot of which may not apply to me at all, at least not now. But then down the road at least I have a rough idea what the ruling will be.
Frugal 04-10-07, 02:47 PM	I guess I can agree to that Frugal - when I typed my post it was directly in response to Loki. ;P Still , I dislike the "Sage because his interpretations often show only a rudimentary understanding of how the rules work together; not to mention individually. Agreed. For that matter, I wish they'd run through the FAQs on the forum as well as the common threads that come out and put some of those questions in the FAQ as well. And as I mentioned, I can understand the odd rules mistake slipping through, what drives me nuts is that in less than a day there will be several threads on the forum pointing out the mistake yet it will sit in the FAQ for ages. At least they're getting better at fixing mistakes in their online articles.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-11-07, 11:28 PM	Also true. If they had to pick one forum goer to actually work on the FAQ/be the Sage, I vote chonjurer. He and Josh Kablak are the best I have ever seen at dissecting the rules.
Frugal 04-12-07, 08:14 AM	Also true. If they had to pick one forum goer to actually work on the FAQ/be the Sage, I vote chonjurer. He and Josh Kablak are the best I have ever seen at dissecting the rules. Well I know the concept of recruiting a few good board members as rules checkers for new releases has been thrown around before. I can see WOTC's reluctance to give out even partial content from a new release to people who aren't staff but for the FAQ? I think it could work, and they could probably get people lined up willing to do it for free.
Southernskies 04-12-07, 09:15 AM	Deleted; forgot which forum I was posting on.
draolindroculic 05-29-07, 01:33 PM	Here's the deal. The PHB specifically states that you can sheath a weapon as a free action in conjunction with a move with a BAB of +1 or higher. The Flick of the Wrist feat specifically states that you only get 1 (one) flick of the wrist per round, regardless. You can use FotW once against an opponent(after which it won't work because the opponent has seen the trick). Additionally, you can only use FotW once in a round. This keeps you from sneak attacking everyone in a room with enough attacks. It is a balancing force. As far as sneak attack goes, if they are denied their dex bonus at all, a rogue can sneak attack. I'm playing a swashbuckler/rogue with Two Weapon Fighting and the FotW feat. Best case scenario, you sneak attack with the main weapon, draw and hit for another sneak attack with the light weapon,(taking a -2 to both attacks because you are planning on using another weapon weather you have it drawn or not[because the penalties are suffered because your attention is not focused primarily on one weapon]) drop it and quick draw the normal weapon, or, next round, draw another light weapon and sneak attack the next opponent with FotW. if you take a move action(meaning moving more than five feet) you can sheath whatever weapon suits you to draw it (or another)again later. I'm not a rules stickler when I DM, except with things that terribly unbalance the game, and this has the potential to do just that. When in doubt though, the wording in the books is very specific. For instance the difference between flat-footed and denied dexterity bonus to AC. You can make an AoO even if you are denied your Dex bonus, but not if you're flat-footed. Big difference when it comes down to it.
Frugal 05-29-07, 01:53 PM	Here's the deal. The PHB specifically states that you can sheath a weapon as a free action in conjunction with a move with a BAB of +1 or higher. Actually, it only says you can draw as a free action as part of a move. I'm playing a swashbuckler/rogue with Two Weapon Fighting and the FotW feat. Best case scenario, you sneak attack with the main weapon, draw and hit for another sneak attack with the light weapon,(taking a -2 to both attacks because you are planning on using another weapon weather you have it drawn or not[because the penalties are suffered because your attention is not focused primarily on one weapon]) drop it and quick draw the normal weapon, or, next round, draw another light weapon and sneak attack the next opponent with FotW. if you take a move action(meaning moving more than five feet) you can sheath whatever weapon suits you to draw it (or another)again later. I'm not a rules stickler when I DM, except with things that terribly unbalance the game, and this has the potential to do just that. Why would you only get the singel sneak attack in the example above? I suppose it depends on how you're getting sneak attack. If you're flanking, or the opponent is flat-footed (or otherwise denied DEX to AC) you'll get it with all attacks, no need for FOTW, I suppose you might be feinting (only works on next attack) or invisible (and thus visible after the attack), but you don't say.
sirkently 05-29-07, 02:10 PM	I agree that you can't sheath a weapon as a free action while moving but I won't get into that. An option for the original poster is the sleight of hand skill. At a DC of 30 (pretty high I know), you can hide an item on your person which I think would accomplish what he is trying to do. Might be awhile before he can reach that high a DC though.
Loki5654 05-29-07, 02:26 PM	At a DC of 30 (pretty high I know), you can hide an item on your person which I think would accomplish what he is trying to do. Might be awhile before he can reach that high a DC though. 1. There is no DC to hide a small object (including a light weapon) on your person. It is an opposed check, with your SoH vs. someone else's Spot. 2. A SoH check is always a standard action, but it can be done as a free action with a -20 to the opposed check. Hardly ideal.
sirkently 05-29-07, 02:37 PM	1. There is no DC to hide a small object (including a light weapon) on your person. It is an opposed check, with your SoH vs. someone else's Spot. From reading the skill, the opposed spot check only occurs if someone is watching you, and doesn't prevent you from doing the action. So at a DC of 30 you could hide a small item on your person as a free action, which I would say is equivalent of sheathing a weapon, regardless whether someone sees you or not with an opposed spot check. 2. A SoH check is always a standard action, but it can be done as a free action with a -20 to the opposed check. Hardly ideal. I agree it is hardly ideal, but it is an option at higher levels.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 02:47 PM	1. There is no DC to hide a small object (including a light weapon) on your person. It is an opposed check, with your SoH vs. someone else's Spot. 2. A SoH check is always a standard action, but it can be done as a free action with a -20 to the opposed check. Hardly ideal. Here's the amusing thing. No matter what your result on the check the object is now on your person, your opponent just sees you do it. Thus by RAW you can take any small object as a free action. You just have to try to hide it. This is of course vastly abusing the RAW, but the character concept is hardly game breaking in my mind.
Loki5654 05-29-07, 02:53 PM	From reading the skill, the opposed spot check only occurs if someone is watching you, and doesn't prevent you from doing the action. So at a DC of 30 you could hide a small item on your person as a free action, which I would say is equivalent of sheathing a weapon, regardless whether someone sees you or not with an opposed spot check. There is absolutely nothing in the rules to support that. What you've done is come up with what is called a House-Rule.
Loki5654 05-29-07, 02:58 PM	No matter what your result on the check the object is now on your person, your opponent just sees you do it. Thus by RAW you can take any small object as a free action. You just have to try to hide it. No, not really. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You are confusing the "Hide an object I already have" part of the skill with the "Take something I don't have from someone who does" part. You have to take it first, then hide it. You can't combine the two.
sirkently 05-29-07, 03:05 PM	What do you think is unsupported. The sleight of Hand skill is not an opposed roll. At a DC of 30 I could take a dagger and hide it on my person as a free action. This is right out of the PHB. Whether someone noticed me with a spot check is immaterial for the purpose at hand, which is sheathing a weapon as a free action. Now my extropolation of saying this is the equivalent of sheathing a weapon I guess you could consider a house rule. But if the rules state that I can hide it on my person at a DC of 30, then I would think sheathing it wouldn't be any harder.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 03:16 PM	Hm... Okay you might be right. Lets' look over the skill and work through what needs to go down. I'm pretty sure this can be done though. SLEIGHT OF HAND (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went. When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like. Sleight of Hand DC Task 10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear 20 Lift a small object from a person Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10. Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks. Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body. The entirety of the skill, for future reference and spotting flaws. So there are 4 ways to use Slight of Hand 1 - Palm a small object (DC 10 and opposed spot if someone cares) 2 - Hide an object (Opposed spot) 3 - Old school Pick Pockets (DC 20 and opposed spot) 4 - As a perform skill It is important to note that the DCs are fixed for options 1 and 3. The Spot check merely means the person notices your actions. He can't do anything about it (except maybe make an AoO). Which leads us to the following rules interpretations Interpretation 1 (Most rules efficient, least sane) - You already possess the object (the weapon is in your hand after all), thus you merely need to hide it. To perform that hiding as a free action you need merely make a Slight of Hand check with no DC at a -20 penalty, with that check setting the Spot/Search difficulties of all viewers. Slightly more sane variation 1a - You need to at least break DC 0 in order to hide the object, making the check to 'hide' a light weapon as a free action effectively DC 20. [*House Rule, the first variant is definitely RAW] Interpretation 2 (Slightly more odd but possible) - You need to slight of hand the object into your possession (or in better terms move it to a spot where it can be hidden) with the first writeup of slight of hand. Thus a free action version would be DC 30 (10 + 20) followed by the DC less Hide action at -20. The big thing is this part Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check. Which technically states that any Slight of Hand action can be made a free action by adding a -20 penalty. Stupidly this technically means that if you can use the skill as a perform check as a free action too. Once again if we are willing to abuse RAW.
sirkently 05-29-07, 03:40 PM	I had always used the DC 10 for the hide roll as well when trying to hide an object or put it away. But reading your explanation, I agree that as written, there is no DC. I think trying to put away a weapon as a free action might be too easy at a DC of 20 though. Have to think about that one.
Loki5654 05-29-07, 03:41 PM	What do you think is unsupported. The DC 30 that you've pulled out of thin air. Hiding an object is not a binary state (as in "either something is hidden or it isn't"). It is dependent on the Spot/Search of the viewer. A dagger may be easily hidden for John Q. Commoner (Spot +1), but not from Phineas "Eagle-Eyes" McSpotsalot (Spot +17). That is why it is an opposed check with no set DC.
sirkently 05-29-07, 04:09 PM	I think that the DC 10 for a ledgerdomain use should be in the equation. But as DaidojiTaidoru points out, by the rules there is no DC, so you can do it for free. Personally I think the 10 should be in there making the check a DC of 30. I see this as a contradiction in the rules though. It is normally a move action to sheath a weapon. But with no DC to hide it on your person, anyone could do it as a free action with a dex check of nothing, so the two don't make sense together. So I intrepret it as you must use the DC of 30 (10 for ledgerdomain and 20 for a free action), to "HIDE", in this case meaning put away a light weapon on your person, or in this case hide it in your sheath. So this isn't so much my house rule as trying to make sense of the rules as they are stated.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 04:39 PM	I see this as a contradiction in the rules though. It is normally a move action to sheath a weapon. But with no DC to hide it on your person, anyone could do it as a free action with a dex check of nothing, so the two don't make sense together. So I intrepret it as you must use the DC of 30 (10 for ledgerdomain and 20 for a free action), to "HIDE", in this case meaning put away a light weapon on your person, or in this case hide it in your sheath. So this isn't so much my house rule as trying to make sense of the rules as they are stated. Well one could rule that the DC 30 check is required to get the object into a position where it can be hidden. Ready for combat in your hand is not the best place to hide a dagger from, and moving it to a place where it can be hidden would require sheathing or the DC 30 check to palm the object. Personally even with Flick of the Wrist I don't see the combo as being overpowering. In fact as a DM I would prefer allowing a sheath as part of a move action rather then starting to find bad ways of abusing a free action ability off of Slight of Hand. Free actions always raise red flags in my mind, and making a house rule to cover such a simple thing is far better then letting RAW run rampant. (Example bad things with Slight of Hand Rules RAW. 1 - A character with +29 slight of hand can pick up an infinite number of small objects within reach as free actions. Meaning with well planned movement (and possibly a good tumble score) he can loot a dragons hoard just by running through the area it is held. 2 - A character with a +29 slight of hand can, as a free action make a DC 10 performance check gaining 1d10 copper. Of course since he has an infinite number of free actions in a turn...)
sirkently 05-29-07, 04:43 PM	2 - A character with a +29 slight of hand can, as a free action make a DC 10 performance check gaining 1d10 copper. Of course since he has an infinite number of free actions in a turn...) You aren't supposed to have unlimited free actions in a round. The rules say the DM is supposed to put reasonable limits on the number, whatever he thinks they should be in the time constraint. I agree that free actions can become an issue, thats why I think the Dc of 30 is reasonable, but I was trying to reason out what the rule was meant to be as it seems to me to be a contradiction.
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 04:45 PM	You aren't supposed to have unlimited free actions in a round. The rules say the DM is supposed to put reasonable limits on the number, whatever he thinks they should be in the time constraint. Pah! The actions are free thus they must be unlimited! ;) Yeah, there is a 'reasonable' cap, but I hate relying on those. Having a good hard cap is usually better in my mind. Leads to less arguing.
Loki5654 05-29-07, 05:01 PM	Drawing a hidden weapon is a Standard Action. With Quick Draw, it changes to a move-equivalent action which cannot be changed by: A) The use of the Sleight of Hand skill or B) The ability to draw a weapon as part of a move. Thus it does not help in the situation the OP suggested.
sirkently 05-29-07, 05:20 PM	Drawing a hidden weapon is a Standard Action. With Quick Draw, it changes to a move-equivalent action which cannot be changed by: A) The use of the Sleight of Hand skill or B) The ability to draw a weapon as part of a move. Thus it does not help in the situation the OP suggested. Now we will get into a house rule. I would postulate that whatever DC you use, it shouldn't be any harder to actually put it in its sheath, than to hide it on your body. So just have the PC choose to hide the weapon in its sheath.
sirkently 05-29-07, 05:21 PM	Yeah, there is a 'reasonable' cap, but I hate relying on those. Having a good hard cap is usually better in my mind. Leads to less arguing. If agree with that. What hard cap would/do you use?
DaidojiTaidoru 05-29-07, 05:38 PM	If agree with that. What hard cap would/do you use? Well, if it came up in game I'd probably limit the number of items that can be slight of handed per round to the number of items that can fit in one's hand. Say 3-5 coins (D&D coins are big iirc), or one dagger. But for the OPs problem I'd just house rule the ability to sheath a weapon as part of a move action. I can sheath a katana in 3 seconds if I skip the chibuti (blood cleaning) part and I'm bad at it. A master of the war fan should have a much easer time, both because the weapon is easier to 'sheath' and because a 4th level anything is probably better at their chosen weapon then I am.
gimble01 03-16-08, 08:40 PM	I'm playing a 7th level Asherati Scorpion Heritor with the Flick of the Wrist Feat wielding a collapsing crescent fan, and I'm running into a snag. I'd like to be able to approach one enemy, quick draw + flick + sneak + skirmish. Then sheath + tumble if necessary + move down the line + repeat against next foe ad nauseum. The problem is I'm being told by my GM that I can't sheath as a free action: He correctly points out that the PHB allows a draw as a free action, but not a sheath. Moreover, the Quick Draw feat--that is prereq to Flick of the Wrist--does not address sheathing the weapon. The whole issue was complicated by the RPGA FAQ where it explicitly says draw & sheath are free actions during movement with a +1 Bab in a question about Quick Draw. So, my questions are: How would most of you GM's rule on this? Would sheathing in my circumstances be a free action or a move action? Assuming it's a move action, is there a way to accomplish what I'd like to without wasting a turn? There's an item called Cloak of Weaponery out of the magic item compedium that allows you to draw and sheath as a swift action, the weapon cannot be larger than medium and you can only hold one weapon at a time inside of it
narack 03-17-08, 07:42 AM	Draw as free action with Quick Draw and sheath with Sleight of hand as free action as long as it's a light weapon.
Goliat 03-17-08, 08:24 AM	Can a glove of storing solve your problem?
TheGeek 03-27-08, 11:16 AM	I don't think so, activating a glove of storing requires a command word, and is thus a standard action IIRC.
Dheran 03-29-08, 06:25 PM	I don't think so, activating a glove of storing requires a command word, and is thus a standard action IIRC. You don't recall correctly, alas:Glove of Storing This device is a simple leather glove. On command, one item held in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If an effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. The Glove of Storing uses a command word taking a free action for storing (and a finger snap for retrieval), not a command word taking the usual standard action. A Glove of Storing (or equivalent such as a Glove of the Master Strategist) is, as far as I know, the only way to store any type of weapon as a free action.
TheGeek 04-03-08, 07:52 AM	You don't recall correctly, alas: The Glove of Storing uses a command word taking a free action for storing (and a finger snap for retrieval), not a command word taking the usual standard action. A Glove of Storing (or equivalent such as a Glove of the Master Strategist) is, as far as I know, the only way to store any type of weapon as a free action. Curses! Foiled again! I knew I was being pessimistic.. That makes me feel a lot better about Gloves of Storing, thank you for the clarification.