Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AAB 10-02-07, 06:10 PM	I was wondering if the Quick Reconnoiter feat (Complete Adventurer) would allow you to make the Listen check for Hear the Unseen as a free action. This seems like it would be a good combo for a mid-level blind character or NPC. (sorry, I found the old thread about making a blind character and decided to see what I could do with it. I was thinking Swordsage with the Hunter's Sense stance, too.)
wizardguy2003 10-02-07, 09:46 PM	Since it doesn't limit the kind of listen or spot check, I don't see why it wouldn't work and seems perfectly acceptible. :)
AAB 10-02-07, 10:08 PM	Yay! too bad it can't be done at 1st level....
Egres 10-03-07, 02:49 AM	I was wondering if the Quick Reconnoiter feat (Complete Adventurer) would allow you to make the Listen check for Hear the Unseen as a free action. This seems like it would be a good combo for a mid-level blind character or NPC. (sorry, I found the old thread about making a blind character and decided to see what I could do with it. I was thinking Swordsage with the Hunter's Sense stance, too.) QR explicitely requires a listen check as a move action: you can't get around it.
AAB 10-03-07, 03:19 AM	It may be referring to the fact that any purposeful (ie. non-reactionary) listen check is a move action. I don't know.
Dheran 10-03-07, 06:23 AM	QR explicitely requires a listen check as a move action: you can't get around it. You must be thinking of Hear The Unseen, not Quick Reconnoiter.You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action. You also gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Hear The Unseen does have that restriction:As a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check.
EjoThims 10-03-07, 10:30 AM	Proactive hearing is always a Listen check. Hear the Unseen reiterates this; it does not replace it. Quick Reconoiter lets you make a Listen check as a free action once a round. It obviously is not letting you make reactive Listen checks as free actions, as they are already no-actions and should be happening automatically for most opposed checks and large noises. Therefor, it must mean proactive Listen checks, which are all Move Actions, become free actions, once a round. The two together let you the Hear the Unseen as a free action once a round.
foxtail 10-03-07, 11:26 AM	Proactive hearing is always a Listen check. Hear the Unseen reiterates this; it does not replace it Hear the Unseen does not require the initiator to make a proactive Listen check; nowhere does it say that. Rather, it requires him to make a Listen check that is unique to this ability, and thus not subject to the purview of Quick Reconnoiter.
EjoThims 10-03-07, 11:53 AM	Hear the Unseen does not require the initiator to make a proactive Listen check; nowhere does it say that. Proactive and reactive or not categories, rather descriptions. All Listen checks that require actions have to be used proactively. They all require move actions. Hear the Unseen falls into this group, because it is a Listen check that has to be used (instead of just happening) and requires a move action. The only thing unique to Hear the Unseen are the results of the Listen check. Nothing in it's use differs from any other proactive use of the Listen skill. QR doesn't limit the type of Listen check given. It just makes all Listen checks that aren't reactive free actions instead of move actions. Now... if Hear the Unseen was a standard action there would be room to argue, as then it would be obvious that it was intended to have it's own action seperate from the standard Listen.
foxtail 10-03-07, 12:33 PM	While I admit I can't be 100% sure, I still think the fact that Hear the Unseen explicity states "a move action" calls it into question. If the action taken is meant to be identical to a character's regular Listen check, why not use the wording "Attempt a DC 25 Listen check" and allow this to be implied?
Egres 10-03-07, 01:13 PM	The only thing unique to Hear the Unseen are the results of the Listen check. Nothing in it's use differs from any other proactive use of the Listen skill. If the feat required a normal listen check, it would say so. In fact, it requires explicitely a move action. Deal with it.
AAB 10-03-07, 02:16 PM	If the feat required a normal listen check, it would say so. In fact, it requires explicitely a move action. Deal with it. Okay, since you insist on being rude, let me try to explain this to you in a way you'll understand. Does Hear the Unseen force you to roll a Listen check? Does Quick Reconnoiter allow you to roll a Listen check once per round as a free action? What's the problem? PS. It's spelled "explicitly".
Egres 10-04-07, 06:07 AM	Okay, since you insist on being blind and munchkin, let me try to explain this to you in a way you'll understand. Does Hear the Unseen force you to roll a Listen check? Not a listen check, but a move action to attempt a DC 25 Listen check. Something different. Does Quick Reconnoiter allow you to roll a Listen check once per round as a free action? A normal listen check, not what the HtU feat requires. The feat doesn't require a listen check, but a move action to do a DC 25 listen check. Can you see the difference?
wizardguy2003 10-04-07, 06:46 AM	I don't see a difference at all. It words it that way so you don't assume that it is a reactive ability. You have to decide to use Hear the Unseen, it isn't always active. As such, it is treated just like a normal active listen check, and uses a move action. The rest is a reminder that by RAW, unless otherwise stated, the only move actions that provoke attack of opportunities are those that involve leaving or passing through a threatened area. So Quick Reconnoiter turns Hear the Unseen's move action into a free one, no conflict.
Egres 10-04-07, 07:11 AM	I don't see a difference at all. It words it that way so you don't assume that it is a reactive ability. You have to decide to use Hear the Unseen, it isn't always active. As such, it is treated just like a normal active listen check, and uses a move action. Unfortunately that's not what the feat states. The feat requires a move action: what you added is taken out of thin air. Not to mention that this "reactive" and such argument is meaningless, since the skill states: Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. We have nothing like a previously failed check here.
EjoThims 10-04-07, 07:26 AM	Not to mention that this "reactive" and such argument is meaningless For those able to comprehend decription beyond rules classification, it holds great meaning. Normal listen checks are reactive and require no action. All other listen checks must be made non-reactively (or pro-actively). Hear the Unseen is one of these. With the use of a move action you make a listen check. Just like you would with any other proactive (non-reactive) listen check. QR makes proactive listen checks free actions instead move actions. Let me try to put this in a simpler way for you. All listen checks that require action are move actions that let you make a listen check. hear the Unseen is no different in what actions or skills it requires. Hear the Unseen is also no different from other listen checks that require action with regards to the benefit it receives from QR. The only difference between Hear the Unseen and a normal listen check that requires an action is the results of a succesful check.
Egres 10-04-07, 01:28 PM	For those able to comprehend decription beyond rules classification, it holds great meaning. Normal listen checks are reactive and require no action. All other listen checks must be made non-reactively (or pro-actively). Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. So you are assuming that with HtU you always have failed before? Not to mention that you have failed doing what? Piercing an invisible opponent? Try again. All listen checks that require action are move actions that let you make a listen check. hear the Unseen is no different in what actions or skills it requires. Unfortunately, if you were right the feat would ask a listen check: nothing more. But that is not what the feats states. Besides, I have a question for you: if you were the feat author, and your intent was to force the player to use a move action to make a listen check, how would you write the feat? Intelligenti pauca.
methral 10-04-07, 02:20 PM	I think the issue here is one of semantics caused by poor wording of the original skill (that's right, the skill, and not either feat). To use the Listen skill according to the SRD you make an opposed check, either opposed by a targets Move Silent or a DC set by the DM to hear something that just happened such as an orc a couple rooms down knocking over a table. The skill used in this manner does not require any action at all. The SRD then makes the statement that a character may attempt to hear something they failed to hear as a move action. That's it, what I, and I believe several other people in this thread, have inferred from that statement is that all attempts to "actively listen" are move actions. The actual rules governing the use of the skill do not spell out exactly what kind of action attempting to actively listen is (I will be double checking the PH and DMG when I get home from work tonight and edit this as appropriate, as I only have experience and the SRD to guide me at the moment.) QR allows a character to make one spot and one listen check in an active manner once per round each as a free action. HtU states that a character can make a listen check as a move action against a special DC table to gain further insight than a normal listen check can. The issue is that inferring from the rules on the listen skill, if all active listen checks are normally move actions, and HtU is also a move action, then is HtU considered a "normal" active listen check? This subject would be much easier to define if we knew for sure what type of action an active listen check was, and if HtU required a different action type entirely, however, they do not. The only way to solve the problem, then, is to discuss it with your DM and group and come to a decision that everyone can live with. Therefore, everyone saying QR would work with HtU is correct, and everyone saying HtU would not work with QR is also right.
Zaranthan 10-04-07, 04:59 PM	For those able to comprehend decription beyond rules classification... Stop right there. The opinions of one DM or another are beyond the scope of this discussion. You're free to rule in your game that the feats SHOULD work that way. That doesn't mean that they work that way as written. If HtU was supposed to be affected by QR, it would've simply stated "make a DC 25 Listen check to determine..." Instead, it states "make a DC 25 Listen check as a move action to determine..." Flip over to chapter 8 of the PHB. The action for HtU is not "Listen check", it's "Use a Feat". The feat describes a move action, therefore it requires a move action. If there was an "Improved Hear the Unseen" feat that lowered the action to a free action, it would say so. QR applies to listen checks, not feat usage.
wizardguy2003 10-04-07, 05:24 PM	Here is the thing, in Complete Adventurer under the Quick Reconnoiter Feat it states : Normal: Using a Spot or Listen check in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action. So, there is no question of what kinds of actions listen checks are. Active ones are move actions, Quick Reconnoiter turns them into free ones. Hear the Unseen is a move action type Listen check, so it is affected by Quick Reconnoiter.
foxtail 10-04-07, 05:53 PM	Here is the thing, in Complete Adventurer under the Quick Reconnoiter Feat it states : Normal: Using a Spot or Listen check in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action. So, there is no question of what kinds of actions listen checks are. Active ones are move actions, Quick Reconnoiter turns them into free ones. Hear the Unseen is a move action type Listen check, so it is affected by Quick Reconnoiter. Alright, if we accept the CAdv quote as gospel, all "active" Listen checks are move actions. But does that necessarily mean all move action Listen checks are "active" Listen checks? Logically, that's an illicit conversion. It roughly equates to the claim that because all squares are rectangles, all rectangles must be squares.
EjoThims 10-04-07, 06:49 PM	Alright, if we accept the CAdv quote as gospel, all "active" Listen checks are move actions. But does that necessarily mean all move action Listen checks are "active" Listen checks? Logically, that's an illicit conversion. It roughly equates to the claim that because all squares are rectangles, all rectangles must be squares. The fact that it takes an action, requires an attempt, and is an option all show very strongly that it is an active use of the skill. Besides, I have a question for you: if you were the feat author, and your intent was to force the player to use a move action to make a listen check, how would you write the feat? "On your turn you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check; if succesful... This special use of the Listen skill always takes a move action, and does not benefit from Quick Reconnoiter."
EjoThims 10-04-07, 07:01 PM	Stop right there. Your own comprehension is clouded, it would seem. The statement you quoted was directed specifically at teh one I quoted. Flip over to chapter 8 of the PHB. The action for HtU is not "Listen check", it's "Use a Feat". And page 141 states that a feat defines its effects. This feat's effect is to make a listen check, which takes a move action since it is active.
wizardguy2003 10-04-07, 10:26 PM	Alright, if we accept the CAdv quote as gospel, all "active" Listen checks are move actions. But does that necessarily mean all move action Listen checks are "active" Listen checks? Logically, that's an illicit conversion. It roughly equates to the claim that because all squares are rectangles, all rectangles must be squares. It is atleast RAW, according to the preview of the Rules Compendium, where it lists "active listen or spot checks" as types of move actions. :)
AAB 10-04-07, 10:35 PM	It is atleast RAW, according to the preview of the Rules Compendium, where it lists "active listen or spot checks" as types of move actions. :) Darn, you beat me to it.
Egres 10-05-07, 03:36 AM	"On your turn you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check; if succesful... This special use of the Listen skill always takes a move action, and does not benefit from Quick Reconnoiter." As I thought. "...and does not benefit from Quick Reconnoiter." Now, seriously, are you really arguing that WotC could write a feat like this? What about the other 1.000.000 possibile feat that could interact with it? Try to be honest and admit it: if the authors wanted to force the character to spend a move action, they would have stated so.... Uh? Wait! Thay have done it.
ravenshrike 10-05-07, 09:20 AM	Actually, they could just have assumed quite logically that not everyone has access to CAdv and therefore DIDN'T know that active listen checks are move actions instead of free actions. It's not like it's a big deal anyway, as you have to burn an extra feat to get the ability, and it's of pretty limited utility(Exactly how often do you face invisible creatures?). Really, when combined with deft strike, you get much more use out of the spot ability. Certainly not overpowering for a feat.
foxtail 10-05-07, 09:23 AM	Actually, they could just have assumed quite logically that not everyone has access to CAdv and therefore DIDN'T know that active listen checks are move actions instead of free actions. It's not like it's a big deal anyway, as you have to burn an extra feat to get the ability, and it's of pretty limited utility(Exactly how often do you face invisible creatures?). Really, when combined with deft strike, you get much more use out of the spot ability. Certainly not overpowering for a feat. Except that both feats in question are in CAdv to begin with. And true, it's not that powerful a combination for two feats (three, if you count the Blind-Fighting prereq). I don't think I'd have a problem if another player in my group wanted to use it this way. I'm still enjoying this debate, though. Edit: Although, come to think of it, if I could use Hear the Unseen every round as a free action, I'd do so. Every round. In and out of combat. As long as you can hit the Listen DC of 25, any Hide or Move Silently checks that enemies make quickly become moot, no matter how high their skill modifier is, and as a free action there's no disadvantage to it.
EjoThims 10-05-07, 09:58 AM	As I thought. "...and does not benefit from Quick Reconnoiter." Now, seriously, are you really arguing that WotC could write a feat like this? What about the other 1.000.000 possibile feat that could interact with it? Try to be honest and admit it: if the authors wanted to force the character to spend a move action, they would have stated so.... Uh? Wait! Thay have done it. Sadly, some of the feats I see written for these boards are checked against current rules better than those printed in WotC books (as are characters, yikes). And yes, the character is forced to spend a move action to use Hear the Unseen. Unless that character also has Quick Reconnoiter, which appears in the same book.
Zaranthan 10-05-07, 12:46 PM	Edit: Although, come to think of it, if I could use Hear the Unseen every round as a free action, I'd do so. Every round. In and out of combat. As long as you can hit the Listen DC of 25, any Hide or Move Silently checks that enemies make quickly become moot, no matter how high their skill modifier is, and as a free action there's no disadvantage to it. I think someone just figured out why they don't work together. Good job. Your own comprehension is clouded, it would seem. The statement you quoted was directed specifically at teh one I quoted. Okay, let me try that again. For those able to comprehend decription beyond rules classification, it holds great meaning. This would imply that you think anything beyond the RAW has any meaning here. Once again, you're free to house rule whatever you want, but that doesn't change what the rules state. And page 141 states that a feat defines its effects. This feat's effect is to make a listen check, which takes a move action since it is active. Drop this nonsense about "active listen checks." You made it up (or heard it from someone else who was totally misinformed), it's not in the rules, stop repeating it. It's a good way to explain things in practical terms, but it's useless here. Hear the Unseen requires a move action. It is not an extension of the Listen skill, it's a feat that requires an action. If it worked the way you wanted it to, the action would not have been mentioned in the benefit section of the feat, but as follows: Special: Characters make Listen checks as a free action in response to a sound. A character must use a move action to deliberately attempt to hear something. THIS would imply that abilities that affect how Listen is used would apply to HtU, but it's not written that way.
AAB 10-05-07, 02:13 PM	Make an active Listen check or Spot check (in the Move Action table) No AoO, pg 114 There.
Psion_3 10-05-07, 02:17 PM	There. The rule is clear. But this doesn't mean that the listen check required by the HtU feat is a normal ractive check. In fact, it's logical to think that is not a normal reactive check at all, since the feat rquires a move action to make it, instead of requiring a simple listen check, like many other feats.
elonin 10-11-07, 07:06 PM	Hear the unseen isn't a reactive check, but is a move action (just like listening at a door etc). Hear the unseen requires a move action to attempt a listen check. Quick reconoiter allows one listen and one spot check each round. Quick reconoiter doesn't stipulate what the listen check can be used for. So bringing up the question of reactive listen checks doesn't add anything to this conversation.
Kernath 10-11-07, 08:23 PM	So bringing up the question of reactive listen checks doesn't add anything to this conversation. Fair enough, how's this sound: Hear the Unseen requires a move action to use. It in no way implies that it is a normal active listen check.
elonin 10-11-07, 10:27 PM	How is it different. Hear the unseen's text just went out of their way to suggest that it takes the same action as a regular active listen check. It's up to you to find something in the RAW that suggests HtU requires a move action no matter what. I agree with the earlier post that commented that the text was inserted to prevent people from assuming that they get a free listen check each round.
Kernath 10-12-07, 04:51 PM	Hear the Unseen requires a move action. It is not an extension of the Listen skill, it's a feat that requires an action. If it worked the way you wanted it to, the action would not have been mentioned in the benefit section of the feat, but as follows: Special: Characters make Listen checks as a free action in response to a sound. A character must use a move action to deliberately attempt to hear something. THIS would imply that abilities that affect how Listen is used would apply to HtU, but it's not written that way. That's how it's different.
okpokalypse 10-13-07, 12:55 PM	Listen: Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. Ie. Making an active listen check (assuming you're listening for something you didn't reactively hear) is a Move Action by default. Quick Reconnioter: Benefit: You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action. You also gain a +2 bonus on initiative checks. Normal: Using Spot or Listen in a reactive fashion is a free action, but actively trying to make a Spot check or Listen check requires a move action. This specifically cites that making a Spot or Listen check by default requiring a move action, and that this overrides that for one Spot and one Listen check per round. Hear the Unseen: Benefit: As a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check. If successful, you can pinpoint the location of all foes within 30 feet, as long as you have line of effect to them. Now I see the hangup in that it specifically says "As a move action," however - isn't the general rule that a feat can be upgraded by another feat? Look at Cleave and Great Cleave. Great Cleave overrides the restriction of 1 Cleave per Round. Granted, it's in a more obvious fashion, but it still applies. Hear the Unseen specifices that it can be used as a Move Action Listen Check w/ no AOO. Quick Reconnoiter specifies that one can make one Spot and one Listen check per round as a Free Action. The text in Quick Reconnioter even states that active Listen checks are normally Move Actions (as is stated in Hear the Unseen). There is no text anywhere that even remotely implies that Hear the Unseen is not eligable for use as part of Quick Reconnoiter. Quick Reconnoiter specifically upgrades 1 Active Spot & Listen check to be Free Actions. Therefore, Hear the Unseen, normally done as a Move Action Listen Check is eligable to be upgraded to a Free Action.
Kernath 10-13-07, 08:44 PM	Hear the Unseen specifices that it can be used as a Move Action Listen Check w/ no AOO. Quick Reconnoiter specifies that one can make one Spot and one Listen check per round as a Free Action. The text in Quick Reconnioter even states that active Listen checks are normally Move Actions (as is stated in Hear the Unseen). There is no text anywhere that even remotely implies that Hear the Unseen is not eligable for use as part of Quick Reconnoiter. Quick Reconnoiter specifically upgrades 1 Active Spot & Listen check to be Free Actions. Therefore, Hear the Unseen, normally done as a Move Action Listen Check is eligable to be upgraded to a Free Action. Quick Reconnoiter improves your ability to use the Listen skill. Hear the Unseen is NOT an application of the Listen skill. It is not an extension of the skill itself, but rather a feat that requires a specific action to use. QR applies to Listen checks, not feat usage. Just because the action is coincidental does NOT mean they affect each other. There is no text anywhere that even remotely implies that Hear the Unseen is eligible for use as part of Quick Reconnoiter. Quick Reconnoiter specifically upgrades 1 Active Spot & Listen check to be Free Actions. Hear the Unseen is a Move Action. Since it is not a normal Listen check, it is not eligible to be upgraded to a Free Action.
okpokalypse 10-14-07, 12:25 AM	Quick Reconnoiter improves your ability to use the Listen skill. Hear the Unseen is NOT an application of the Listen skill. It is not an extension of the skill itself, but rather a feat that requires a specific action to use. QR applies to Listen checks, not feat usage. Just because the action is coincidental does NOT mean they affect each other. There is no text anywhere that even remotely implies that Hear the Unseen is eligible for use as part of Quick Reconnoiter. Quick Reconnoiter specifically upgrades 1 Active Spot & Listen check to be Free Actions. Hear the Unseen is a Move Action. Since it is not a normal Listen check, it is not eligible to be upgraded to a Free Action. Actually, it is a Listen Check at DC 25. Actively Listening for something that wasn't reactive is a Move Action that doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Hear the UnSeen is the exact same thing. Essentially, all this feat is doing is giving one an additional application for one's Listen Skill. Period. If Hear the Unseen came out in the Complete Scoundrel it'd likely have been a Skill Trick as opposed to a Feat. But regardless, you say Hear the Unseen is not eligable for upgrade, and I call foolishness. It's an Application of a Move-Action Listen Check. The exact same thing that Quick Reconnoiter upgrades to a Free Action once per Round. Your insistance that it isn't eligable is actually a supposition on your part since the actions are clearly defined within the text of all the skills / feats in question. Because Quick Reconnoiter states, "You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action." and Hear the Unseen states, "... you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check." - it completely stands to reason they are eligable to work with one another. If you choose not to allow it in your campaigns - that's cool. I don't see the grounds for it however - especially considering the limited use and application of it. Only 30' Radius, Goes into DC Rediculous if the Invis / Hidden person is also using Move Silently... Really, even if you're really stuck debating the application of these two feats together, think of the power level of a pair of feats working in tandem - along with the pre-requisites being met for them. C'mon... Two Feats (plus getting Blindsense - another feat pre-req) for a much lesser equivalent to a 2nd level spell. You can get a magic item that would cost you a whopping 12K for perma detect invis, and in twice the radius that Hear the Unseen affords. Common sense man... It ain't game-breaking and it's pretty good flavor all told for quite a steep price. That in and of itself should make this a non-issue...
fridesgerte 10-14-07, 12:28 AM	What about Keen Eared Scout? That should work with Quick Reconnoiter, since it affects listen checks.
Kernath 10-14-07, 09:06 AM	Actually, it is a Listen Check at DC 25. No, it requires a Listen check. Read on. Actively Listening for something that wasn't reactive is a Move Action that doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Hear the UnSeen is the exact same thing. Except Actively listening for something is using a skill, and Hear the Unseen is using a feat. Skills are not feats. Essentially, all this feat is doing is giving one an additional application for one's Listen Skill. Period. No, it's giving one a new action to use. The feat does not mention that it is a new application of the skill, nor that its action is typical for using the Listen skill. You're reading between the lines, and you refuse to see that. If Hear the Unseen came out in the Complete Scoundrel it'd likely have been a Skill Trick as opposed to a Feat. What it should have been and what it is are two VERY different things. Because Quick Reconnoiter states, "You can make one Spot check and one Listen check each round as a free action." and Hear the Unseen states, "... you can attempt a DC 25 Listen check." Wrong. It does NOT state "attempt a Listen check", it states "AS A MOVE ACTION, you can attempt a Listen check." Listen already states that deliberately listening to things requires a move action. If the feat were merely an application of the skill (as you insist it is), there would be no reason to mention the action type in the feat. - it completely stands to reason they are eligable to work with one another. If you choose not to allow it in your campaigns - that's cool. I don't see the grounds for it however - especially considering the limited use and application of it. If you choose to house rule that they work together, that's cool. I don't see the grounds for granting continuous see invisibility with a few feats. You can get a magic item that would cost you a whopping 12K for perma detect invis, and in twice the radius that Hear the Unseen affords. Common sense man... It ain't game-breaking and it's pretty good flavor all told for quite a steep price. That in and of itself should make this a non-issue... 24k, actually, and permanent see invis without an item costs 1,000 XP AND you have to cast it yourself. Putting personal-range spells on items is game crushing. Next you'll be offering me True Strike on a longsword for 2k, or Divine Power for 48.
EjoThims 10-14-07, 09:23 AM	Skills are not feats. Right. But using a feat can mean you use a skill. HtU is a feat tha you have to use a skill to get the advantage of. QR makes using that skill a free action once a round. So you use that skill in the way needed to get the benefits of the feat, and it is a free aciton because you are also using another feat at the same time. The actions and the words of the skill and the feats in no way prevent this, and the flavor and balance of the two actually support it. The only reason not to allow this combination is because you hate creativity. :( And I don't specifically recall what Keen Eared Scout does, but it would work with QR as well, unless specifically limiting itself by something more than simply reiterating the action already used for Listen checks.
okpokalypse 10-14-07, 12:08 PM	I'm not even going to bother addressing the statement made prior to this. It's obvious you've made up your mind on how it should be applied, and I'm not going to waste my breath debating it. I will however address the following gross exaggerations on your part... If you choose to house rule that they work together, that's cool. I don't see the grounds for granting continuous see invisibility with a few feats. That's the thing, it's not See Invis. It's not even close. All you can do is pinpoint the square. You still suffer miss chances, and you still have to made at least a DC 25 Listen Check just to succeed. Tell me, what is your Scout's Listen ability at level 3 (the earliest you can get this feat progression)? 6 Ranks, Maybe a +2 Modifier? So you need to roll a 17+. Wow, only an 80% chance of failing to notice your invisible target within 30'. Factor in the miss chance and that's a 90% chance in any given round of not hitting the Invis target. Yeah, sure is great, huh? See Invis is a guaranteed, no-fail within sight range*. It removes the miss chance associated with Invisibility. It also sees Ethereal, which Hear the Unseen does not. * I have to amend the 60' rule. I just looked up See Invisible and it has no range specification as the other Detect Spells. So it's just applied to your range of vision. In daylight, that's pretty far. In a dungeon, you're talking the standard illumination range. 24k, actually, and permanent see invis without an item costs 1,000 XP AND you have to cast it yourself. Correction, 18K on an item. I forgot the 1.5x multiplier for a 10 Min / Level Duration. What means more to you? 18K Gold or 3 Feats? Remember, you have to take Blindsense as part of the progression for this as well. Alternatively where the concept of Permanency is concerned, what's the real impact, long term, of 1,000 XP compared to 3 Feats? I'd much rather lose 1,000 XP than 3 Feats. You can get XP back. You can't get Feats back. Which is again why I say that this 3-Feat progression is completely novelty. By the time you can use this ability with a 50% chance of success you're likely level 10, and dealing with common invisibility is absolutely trivial. By this point you want those 3 Feats back more than anything. Putting personal-range spells on items is game crushing. Next you'll be offering me True Strike on a longsword for 2k, or Divine Power for 48. Actually, both True Strike and Divine Power have been addressed as when a Spell-Level effect gives a numeric bonus, you apply cost to the numeric bonus. In the case of True Strike, it's 20 ^ 2 (400) * 2,000 = 800,000 w/ 20% off Because it's just an Attack Bonus (Not Attack / Damage) and you've got a final price of 640,000 gpv. Lets look at an interesting spell: Invisibility Purge. As a perma item this should cost 3 (SL) * 5 (CL) * 2000 = 30,000 * 2 For the 1 Min / Lev Duration = 60,000 gpv. Now tell me why the Lantern of Revealing (DMG p261) is only 30,000 gpv when it's a continuous-effect Invis Purge. Not only is it a perma-effect better than detect invis (because it's affects are a benefit for everyone) but it's distinctly less expensive than the cost detailed in the magic item creation formula. So going back to an item that creates a continuous See Invisibility effect costing 18,000 gpv market value, that would cost 9,000 gpv and 720 XP to craft. That's actually not out of whack with the cost to make See Invisibility permanent - so I see absolutely no issues where this is "game crushing." Don't turn to exaggerated drama to try and make a point. 2K True Strike, Perma DP, and likening HtU to Perma Detect Invis are nothing more than desperation tactics to get people riled up. They are all untrue or irrelevant where this discussion is concerned.
ninjasuperspy 10-15-07, 04:42 PM	The two feats don't interact. QR doesn't say "You can make any listen/spot checks or use any feats that makes use of the skills listen or spot" and HtU doesn't say "You can now make DC 25 listen checks to find invisible enemies." Using Hear the Unseen is still "using a feat" not "making a listen check," the abstraction is important, otherwise it would appear in the Skills section of the very same chapter as a use of the listen skill. On the other hand, I agree that in the post Complete Scoundrel mode of play that HtU would be a Skill Trick. Even then it would still only pinpoint the square that the creature is currently in. Regardless, it wouldn't work for what the OP wants it for. It sounds like you want to take three feats and make a functioning blind guy. This is a bad idea. You still won't be able to read. Also you would need a cane or something to avoid hitting walls, let alone low ceilings etc.
elonin 10-15-07, 05:49 PM	Your arguement about reading in using these feats is creating a straw man. Noone who has commented to this thread has stated anything about reading in the dark or while blind. Your point seems to be that since the feats don't explicitly state that they work together. This view is weak and would be akin to suggesting that since there is no mention that combat expertise and dodge work together then they shouldn't. I've played a character with quick reconoiter and unless i specifically call for my free checks I don't get any. So QR never helped my character in suprise situations, since these were outside of normal initiave.
MongooseFamiliar 10-15-07, 06:48 PM	QR applies to listen checks, not feat usage. What about skill tricks, like Spot the Weak Point or See the Unseen?
Kernath 10-15-07, 09:10 PM	Your point seems to be that since the feats don't explicitly state that they work together. This view is weak and would be akin to suggesting that since there is no mention that combat expertise and dodge work together then they shouldn't. Except there is. Dodge bonuses stack, as explicitly laid out in the rules.
fridesgerte 10-16-07, 01:29 AM	And I don't specifically recall what Keen Eared Scout does, but it would work with QR as well, unless specifically limiting itself by something more than simply reiterating the action already used for Listen checks. Keen-Eared Scout (PHB2 pg 80): Prerequisites: Listen 6 ranks. Alertness or Skill Focus (Listen) Benefit: When you make a listen check, you might learn more than normal about a source of noise. If you beat the Listen DC by 5 or more, you determine the size, speed, and direction of the source of noise. If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you determine the precise, current position of the creature or object that caused the sound. If you beat the DC by 15 or more, you determine the type of armor the creature wears and what it carries, if anything. If you beat the DC by 20 or more, you learn the creatures type and subtypes. The information you learn is cumulative. For example, if you got a Listen check result of 35 against a DC of 23, you gain the information for beating the check by 10 and by 5. These benefits apply to both standard and opposed Listen checks. Also, you gain a +5 bonus on Listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures. (Emphasis added) If you use QR to make the listen check, Keen-eared Scout affects the information you get from the check. I think this is more what the OP was looking for, not Hear the Unseen. Of course, it takes three feats: Skill Focus (Listen); Quick Reconnoiter; and Keen-Eared Scout, and 6 skill points, but they do all work together. (I would add Blind-fight to the list, but I like Blind-fight even for sighted characters.)
ninjasuperspy 10-16-07, 08:18 AM	Your arguement about reading in using these feats is creating a straw man. Noone who has commented to this thread has stated anything about reading in the dark or while blind. Your point seems to be that since the feats don't explicitly state that they work together. This view is weak and would be akin to suggesting that since there is no mention that combat expertise and dodge work together then they shouldn't. I've played a character with quick reconoiter and unless i specifically call for my free checks I don't get any. So QR never helped my character in suprise situations, since these were outside of normal initiave. Really? What about the guy who started the thread and said: (sorry, I found the old thread about making a blind character and decided to see what I could do with it. I was thinking Swordsage with the Hunter's Sense stance, too.) I was under the impression that the object here is "Can I make free listen/spot checks with QR to use HtU to make a functioning blind guy?" Keen-Eared Scout (PHB2 pg 80): Prerequisites: Listen 6 ranks. Alertness or Skill Focus (Listen) Benefit: When you make a listen check, you might learn more than normal about a source of noise. If you beat the Listen DC by 5 or more, you determine the size, speed, and direction of the source of noise. If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you determine the precise, current position of the creature or object that caused the sound. If you beat the DC by 15 or more, you determine the type of armor the creature wears and what it carries, if anything. If you beat the DC by 20 or more, you learn the creatures type and subtypes. The information you learn is cumulative. For example, if you got a Listen check result of 35 against a DC of 23, you gain the information for beating the check by 10 and by 5. These benefits apply to both standard and opposed Listen checks. Also, you gain a +5 bonus on Listen checks to pinpoint invisible creatures. (Emphasis added) If you use QR to make the listen check, Keen-eared Scout affects the information you get from the check. I think this is more what the OP was looking for, not Hear the Unseen. Of course, it takes three feats: Skill Focus (Listen); Quick Reconnoiter; and Keen-Eared Scout, and 6 skill points, but they do all work together. (I would add Blind-fight to the list, but I like Blind-fight even for sighted characters.) This is a good example of exactly what I'm talking about. You make a listen check, beat the DC and get the exact info you want. Completely works with QR. It still features a large amount of prerequisites and won't tell you where the chairs are in the room or what color that lever is. There are whole classes of magic items a blind character would not be able to use properly. You're [OP] talking about a swordsage, say goodbye to Martial Scripts, for instance.
elonin 10-16-07, 12:22 PM	Sounds like I may have misunderstood you. I'm not talking about someone with these feats using them to read or many physical descriptions like colors etc. My arguement has been about being able to use these two feats together (HtU and QR) to pinpoint an invisible being. There is alot of information that the character doesn't get, except for what is available through other senses. And if it's a monster knowledge checks would be much harder since they only have smell, sound etc to go on. Hope that clears things up.
Midrealm_DM 10-17-07, 03:29 PM	Edit: Although, come to think of it, if I could use Hear the Unseen every round as a free action, I'd do so. Every round. In and out of combat. As long as you can hit the Listen DC of 25, any Hide or Move Silently checks that enemies make quickly become moot, no matter how high their skill modifier is, and as a free action there's no disadvantage to it. Except HtU states: If an opponent is using Move Silently, it is an opposed check, with a +15 bonus for your opponent. So if they are using move silent, you had better get higher than DC 25. =-=- Lets look at What hear the Unseen gives you. DMG p 295 "A creature can generally notice...an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 spot check. The observer gets a hunch that "something's there" but can't see it or target it with an attack... It is practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Spot check, and even if [successful] the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). ... A character can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round...A listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature's location." Ok so I can normally make a free action listen check to pinpoint an invisible creature, range penalties apply to the listen check but if I beat the DC by 20 I can pinpoint the square. With hear the unseen a flat DC is given for the 30 foot radius, effectively ignoring range penalties for the first 30 feet (ok so at best a -3) and I only have to beat the DC by 15 instead of 20. But this is done as a move action. So I am getting an effective +5 to +8 bonus by using a move action instead of a free action. If I took skill focus (Listen) I would get a +3 bonus to listen, If I took Alertness I would get another +2 bonus to listen. Further a normal listen check could detect an invisible creature behind a door, (HtU needs line of effect) So for two feats I could get almost the same effect as Hear the unseen (plus get another +2 on spot) and still perform the listen check as a free action when fighting invisible foes. It seems reasonable to allow Quick Reconoiter and Hear the Unseen to stack, as you are still spending two feats (plus the prerequisite of Blind Fighting) It is worth noting that hear the unseen also ignores the listen modifer for being distracted. My $0.02 =-=- Of course if you really want to know for sure, go to the help pages and ask the folks at WotC, you usually get an answer within 24 hours