Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkaKageWarrior 03-27-07, 03:10 PM	hi, sorry if this is asked for the 1000th time, but as long as we don't have a search function here and google gives me many links but not the right, I'll ask again... I checked the FAQ and the errata. we are having a discussion in our epic campaign about the quicken spell feat. it seems clear that spells with a 1-round casting time (such as summon monster) can NOT be quickened, BUT spells with a full-round action casting time. Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. okay, so far so good. now my 1st question: are there any spells with a "full-round action" casting time? I haven't found any in the PHB1. now my next question refers to the further text of the quicken spell description: Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action. so the only way to get a spell with a "full-round action" casting time is to spontaneously cast a metamagic spell - but that can NOT be quickened? me no understand - me thinks that's a contradiction. but maybe there's really something I miss, I'm not a native english speaker. HELP, please! :) AKW
MourninStar 03-27-07, 04:58 PM	Okay, part one: All of the various Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells are full round, and so is Storm of Vengeance. Remember, though, that the great thing about Quicken Spell is that it lets you cast that spell as a swift action. This means no Attacks of Opportunity while casting, and you can cast two spells in a round. As far as Spontaneous Metamagic goes, remember: they don't prepare spells, so they can easily burn a 5th level spell on the spot for an Empowered Fireball. A wizard has to think "What are the odds I'll need an Empowered Fireball over a Baleful Polymorph?" So the balancing factor there is that it takes a spontaneous caster a full round to cast a spell with a metamagic feat. Easy fix: Buy a Rod of Metamagic: Quicken.:)
ShinAkuma2 03-27-07, 05:30 PM	There is a difference between "full-round action" and "full round casting time". The former means it consumes your move and standard action, and is finished. This includes a full attack, running, etc. The latter means it takes one complete round to do the action, ie, consume your actions now, and until your next turn, you are still doing that action. An Enlarge Person spell (among others) is a full round casting time, meaning that you are casting from the time you decide to cast the spell until the start of your next turn, when the spell is finished. You are right, you cannot Quicken a spontaenously cast spell.
Merestil Haye 03-27-07, 06:14 PM	There are no spells printed (yet) with a casting time of a full-round action. If the designers ever print a spell with a casting time of a full-round action, then it may be Quickened. The rules allow for it even though it has never happened yet. Spells with a printed casting time of 1 standard action or less that are cast spontaneously and have 1 or more metamagic feats applied take a full-round action to cast. These may not be quickened.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-27-07, 09:39 PM	The same problem comes up in Rapid Spell- the feat talks a lot about full round spells, of which there are none except spontaneous metamagicked standard actions. It means, "spells with a casting time of 1 round". Writers make this mistake a lot (or is it because the terminology was different in 3.0?)
SALDAR 03-28-07, 12:07 AM	we are having a discussion in our epic campaign about the quicken spell feat. it seems clear that spells with a 1-round casting time (such as summon monster) can NOT be quickened, BUT spells with a full-round action casting time. From the SRD: "CASTING TIME Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed." There is your full round action casting time. Any spell with a casting time of 1 round can be quickened as it takes a full round action to cast.
ShinAkuma2 03-28-07, 12:33 AM	From the SRD: "CASTING TIME Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed." There is your full round action casting time. Any spell with a casting time of 1 round can be quickened as it takes a full round action to cast. Wrong, sorry. It takes MORE than a full round, as you already posted: "It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell." That's why it's a "1 round casting time". It takes ONE ROUND (not just a full round action) to cast. It only consumes one full round's worth of actions, but it takes more than a full round action to complete, which is why they can be disrupted after you've spent the actions. As Quicken says, "A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened", and since, after having spent a full round action, you are not done casting, it is by all definitions more than 1 full round action to cast.
SALDAR 03-28-07, 01:09 AM	As Quicken says, "A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened", and since, after having spent a full round action, you are not done casting, it is by all definitions more than 1 full round action to cast. A full round action takes more than a full round to complete. Say what? From Full Round Actions: A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. From the Cast a Spell Full Round Action description: "When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell." You are spending a full round action and in doing so you are casting from your initiative in one round to just before your initiative in the next round.
AkaKageWarrior 03-28-07, 03:34 AM	I agree with ShinAkuma2. that's how I understood it in the first place. my initial question was rather targeted at the contradictive nature of "full-round action" casting time, although there are NO spells with that casting time. The only spells with a "full-round action" casting time are metamagicked spontaneous spells. so here comes the real contradiction, because by the description of "quicken spell" ("full-round action" casting time)-spells can be quickened. BUT again the feat description says spontaneous spells can not be quickened... :rolleyes: AKW
SALDAR 03-28-07, 04:25 AM	From the SRD: THE COMBAT ROUND Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. A round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action. Each round’s activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds, in order, from there. Each round of a combat uses the same initiative order. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.) For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. A full round action lasts from init to init. It doesn't matter what that action is, whether it is casting a spell, lighting a torch, or making a full attack. It begins on your initiative and ends on your initiative in the next round. So a 1 round casting time begins on your init and ends before your init in the next round. A full round action, nothing more. And since you can quicken a spell that takes a full round action to cast you can quicken spells that have a 1 round casting time. They are the same thing, by the rules.
Merestil Haye 03-28-07, 06:16 AM	The game designers adopted a policy that if they give two superficially similar things different labels, those two things are different. The FAQ attests to this.Incorporeal touch attacks and touch attacks aren’t the same thing. If they were, they would not have different names.Therefore, since one is called a "full-round action" and the other a "1 full round" casting time, the two must be different because the game was designed that way. A spell that takes a full-round action to cast is completed and its effects resolved during the turn of the caster. A spell with a casting time of 1 full round does not get completed in the caster's turn - it gets completed in the caster's next turn. That is quite plain from the rules SALDAR cited. Yes, a 1 full round casting time is longer than a full-round action, and therefore may not be quickened.
AkaKageWarrior 03-28-07, 06:31 AM	A full round action lasts from init to init. It doesn't matter what that action is, whether it is casting a spell, lighting a torch, or making a full attack. It begins on your initiative and ends on your initiative in the next round. That is wrong. This would mean that inbetween a full attack, which is a full-round action, the target would have its turn and would act while being hit? No. full-round actions are finished when it is the next character's turn. Otherwise handling actions in any timeline would get at least very complicated, if not impossible. AKW
SALDAR 03-28-07, 07:22 AM	After further study I see we are interpreting the following line differently: "A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened." You're reading it as: The casting time for the spell is listed as 1 full round action. I'm reading it as: The listed casting time of the spell uses a full round action. A spell that has a listed casting time of 1 round takes a full round action to cast. Whether it goes into effect before the next creature in initiative order takes its actions or just before your next turn in initiative order doesn't matter, it is still a full round action and a spell cast using a full round action can be quickened. This line can be read both ways but reading it in the way that you are is what is causing the perceived problem.
AkaKageWarrior 03-28-07, 08:07 AM	anyway, this sucks big time and should be "errata-ed" and clarified asap. AKW
ClementWillowbreaker 03-28-07, 03:02 PM	This line can be read both ways but reading it in the way that you are is what is causing the perceived problem. Actually, the way you are reading it is causing the problem. Just because something consumes a full-round action to perform does not override all other text that says it takes and entire round to complete. Full-round action is the biggest action you can complete in 1 round, so it takes that up, leaving you with no chance to do something else before you start casting. Casting a spell with a 1-round casting time can be disrupted at any time during and after you spend your full-round action, all the way to just before your turn comes up again. See Concentrate and lots of other places. You seem to think that 1-round casting time is a fire-and-forget ability, with the summoned monster falling from a high orbit 6 seconds above the battlefield, essentially. It is not. You are as restricted as a full-round-action-casting sorcerer in what you can accomplish, but when he is checking the rest of the battle out and trying to figure out what to do next (waiting out everyone else's turn), you are still making arcane gestures and invoking. One-round casting is more effort than full-round spells, hence the risk of disruption in addition to consuming the largest action type available to you. As for the "extraneous" line in Quicken Spell about spontaneous casting, it is required because of the language used. They say any spell can be quickened, except for ones that are longer than full-round action. Full-round casting times only happen with spontaneous casters, so they have to specifically ban them. It would have been much simpler to say, "Only spells with a casting time of one standard action can be Quickened". But instead, they remove one chunk of spells (those with casting times measured in rounds), then more-restrictive category of spells that take just a full-round action, leaving only standard actions. It's just bad writing, but it carries the appropriate meaning.
SALDAR 03-28-07, 06:28 PM	The feat states that casting a spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A spell with a casting time of 1 round takes 1 full round action to cast. It does not take more and therefore qualifies for quicken. A full round action takes a full round to complete and that is what a 1 round spell uses. If it took more than a full round action to complete then it would take a full round action on this turn and an additional action on your next turn as well. Even though you continue casting and the spell comes into effect just before your next turn you are still only using a full round action. You are not using more than a full round action. In most cases the actions you take on your initiative are completed before the next creature's initiative begins. In this case it is not, but that does not mean you are using more than a full round action. You can't unless you also use a free action, but a 1 round spell is a full round action, not a full round action and a free action. You seem to think that 1-round casting time is a fire-and-forget ability, with the summoned monster falling from a high orbit 6 seconds above the battlefield, essentially. At no time have I even suggested this because it is blatantly wrong. The only time this actually does apply is when a caster uses a metamagic feat on a spontaneously cast spell, which is an exception to the rule that casting a full round action spell starts on your turn and ends just before your next turn. In both cases you are using a full round action.
Merestil Haye 03-28-07, 06:57 PM	The feat states that casting a spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A spell with a casting time of 1 round takes 1 full round action to cast.The casting time of a Summon Monster * spell is not "a full round action" but "1 full round". The mere fact that the game calls them different things demonstrates that they are different. If these two lengths of time are different, one is longer than the other. The rules say that a full round action is started and finished during the acting creature's turn, but that a spell with a casting time of 1 full round takes the acting character until his next turn to complete. Therefore a spell with a casting time of 1 full round takes longer than a spell with a casting time of a full round action and may not be Quickened.
SALDAR 03-28-07, 08:16 PM	The casting time of a Summon Monster * spell is not "a full round action" but "1 full round". Incorrect. The casting time for a Summon Monster spell is 1 round. It takes 1 full round action to cast. The casting time for Binding is one minute. It takes 10 full round actions to cast. The casting time for Discern Location is 10 minutes. It takes 100 full round actions to cast. Of these three, which have a casting time of more than 1 full round action? The mere fact that the game calls them different things demonstrates that they are different. If these two lengths of time are different, one is longer than the other. A full round action takes 6 seconds to complete while 1 full round is 6 seconds long. So 6 seconds is longer than 6 seconds. Right. The rules say that a full round action is started and finished during the acting creature's turn, but that a spell with a casting time of 1 full round takes the acting character until his next turn to complete. This does not add time to the casting of the spell nor does it change the type of action used to cast the spell. It is still only 1 full round action. If it takes effect immediately, as a metamagic spontaneous spell, or it takes effect just before your next turn, it is still 1 full round action. When it takes effect doesn't change the type of action used. Your attempting to put something into the rules that just isn't there.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-28-07, 11:13 PM	The nice thing about Saldar is that he is so content with his myopic obsession with literal readings about action types that he doesn't care what other people think. Which is good when he is so unbelievably wrong in situations like this. Otherwise his feelings might get hurt. It also saves him the trouble of having to ever pick Rapid Spell for his characters. Who needs to Rapid then Quicken a spell with a casting time of "1 full round" like the feat explicitly says, when he gets to Quicken it straight off the bat? I really want to play in Saldar's game- free +1 metamagic!!
SALDAR 03-30-07, 01:51 AM	So it comes down to my "myopic obsession" being at fault because you have provided no evidence that casting a spell that takes 1 round to cast uses more than 1 full round action. As for my literal reading of the rules, I have yet to see where a full round action takes more than 1 full round action to complete.
Nathreet 03-30-07, 02:23 AM	So it comes down to my "myopic obsession" being at fault because you have provided no evidence that casting a spell that takes 1 round to cast uses more than 1 full round action. As for my literal reading of the rules, I have yet to see where a full round action takes more than 1 full round action to complete. Well good for you, all that means is that you need to read the rules. It's kind of like covering your eyes to hide from someone. I don't see him, so he must not be there. Some people figure this out after infancy, some don't. Casting Time A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. Casting a Metamagic Spell Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn’t the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren’t required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell. Next time search for the answer, and don't assume the other guy must be wrong b/c you don't have the answer yet. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. G.I. Joe!
ShinAkuma2 03-30-07, 08:27 AM	Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. G.I. Joe! The other half is getting that darn d20 to roll higher than a 16...C'mon, blast it!
ClementWillowbreaker 03-30-07, 02:30 PM	saldar, How about the part where you are still casting and subject to disruption after your sorcerer friend who went 15 initiative after you has finished his metamagicked spell as a full-round action? I've seen a lot of handwaving, but no actual evidence. Totally Post-ninja'ed.
Tyraxus 03-30-07, 04:25 PM	That is wrong. This would mean that inbetween a full attack, which is a full-round action, the target would have its turn and would act while being hit? No. full-round actions are finished when it is the next character's turn. Otherwise handling actions in any timeline would get at least very complicated, if not impossible. AKW No, he is absolutely correct. Full round actions take *gasp* the whole round. Ever watched people fencing, or been fencing yourself? Notice the near-simultaneous lunge, each hitting the other? That's the finish of two full-round actions, resulting in mutual hits in D&D. Also note that an attack roll is not a single attack, it is two things: noticing an opening in the opponant's defenses and attempting to hit it. That's why you can have iterative attacks in the same six-second period: you are better able to notice/take advantage of said openings. When you miss with your attack roll, you either fail to notice the opening or fail to hit.
SALDAR 03-31-07, 01:58 PM	Well good for you, all that means is that you need to read the rules. I have. Thank you for posting them again. A spontaneous metamagic spell takes a full round action to cast. A spell with a 1 round casting time takes a full round action to cast. From Casting a Spell: "Note that this isn’t the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren’t required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn." Yes, they are not the same. The difference is when you finish the casting and the spell comes into effect, not the action required. With a spontaneous metamagic you use a full-round action and the casting ends and the spell comes into effect before the next creature's turn in initiative order. With a 1 round spell you use a full-round action and the casting finishes and the spell comes into effect just before your next turn. Both require a full round action and there is nothing in the above statement that changes this. Quicken states that if it takes more than a full round action then it cannot be quickened. How does something that requires you to use a full-round action to complete take more than 1 full-round action to complete?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 02:55 PM	When you are still casting it after your turn ends. You can't seem to grasp that while the a full-round action is the most costly time unit commonly used in combat, things can be longer, like things that explicitly say they do, like casting 1-round spells. According to your interpretation, when casting a spell with a casting time of one minute, I am using a full-round action, stopping, waiting around not casting, using another full-round action at my next opportunity, and repeating it eight more times. See, I can bold random words from what I have already said and make a new post, too.
SALDAR 03-31-07, 03:46 PM	I've seen a lot of handwaving, but no actual evidence. Put your hands down a take a look. Metamagic Feats (PHB page 88) Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time, as described under Cast a Spell, page 143.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell. Mentions nothing about the type of action required, just that is different from a 1 round casting time. THE COMBAT ROUND (PHB page 138) Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world. At the table, a round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action. Anything a person could reasonably do in 6 seconds, your character can do in 1 round. Each round’s activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds, in order, from there. Each round of a combat uses the same initiative order. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.) For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. The word “round” works like the word “month.” A month can mean either a calendar month or a span of time from a day in one month to the same day in the next month. In the same way, a round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on. A round is 6 seconds and the round in which you take your actions lasts from your initiative in one round to your initiative in the next is one round. ACTION TYPES (PHB page 138) An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions. In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action. In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action. A round is 6 seconds and it takes you 6 seconds to perform a full round action. Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions (see below) as your Dm allows. The most common type of full-round action is a full attack, which allows you to make multiple melee or ranged attacks in a single round. Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step. Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round (such as in a surprise round). The descriptions of specific actions, below, detail which actions allow this option. All of your effort during a 6 second round is consumed by a full round action. And as shown above this effort lasts from your initiative in one round to your initiative in the next round. FULL-ROUND ACTIONS (PHB page 143) A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step. See full round action above. Cast a Spell standard action (PHB page 140) Casting Time: Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. A spell cast in this manner immediately takes effect. A standard action spell goes off immediately when cast. Cast a Spell full-round action (PHB page 143) A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions. According to this casting a spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full round action and a full round action takes all of your effort for your entire round, from your initiative in one round until your initiative in the next round. This is the standard for casting a full round action spell, the following rule for spontaneous metamagic is an exception to this but in no way changes this rule. Casting a Metamagic Spell: Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn’t the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren’t required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell. Clerics must take more time to spontaneously cast a metamagic version of a cure or inflict spell. For instance, an 11th-level cleric can swap out a prepared 6th-level spell to cast an empowered cure critical wounds. Spontaneously casting a metamagic version of a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action is a full-round action, and spells with longer casting times take an extra full-round action to cast. This rule for spontaneous metamagic does not change a 1 round casting time spell from a full round action to more than 1 full round action. CASTING TIME (PHB page 174) Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. Chapter 8: Combat describes the difference between these types of actions. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell. A spell with a casting time of 1 free action (such as feather fall) doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. For example, when casting a summon monster spell, you need not decide where you want the monster to appear (or indeed, what monster you are summoning) until the spell comes into effect in the round after you begin casting. Again, this does not change a 1 round spell into something more than a full round action. A full round action still takes only 1 round to complete. QUICKEN SPELL [METAMAGIC] (PHB page 98) Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action. If those that are more than a full round action cannot be quickened then those that are less than or equal to a full round action can be quickened. As for my obsession with action types, Quicken Spell specifies that it is based on the action type used to cast the spell, not on the listed casting time of the spell. If you cast a spell that requires more than a full round action to cast then it cannot be quickened.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 03:54 PM	Quicken Spell specifies that it is based on the action type used to cast the spell, not on the listed casting time of the spell. You sure? Because you quoted the exact opposite in your post as well. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. Not action, not what the caster is doing, the casting time. So you are using Quicken Spell to disprove itself. It uses the actual casting time, and are arguing with yourself. You put down your hands. You also went to quite a length to unnecessarily show that metamagicked spontaneous spells have a casting time of a full-round action. Thanks, because that leads straight into my first post on the topic, explaining the awkward necessity of the Special line forbidding spontaneous Quicken. Again, this does not change a 1 round spell into something more than a full round action. Good, because it has nothing to do with 1-round spells, which have always been 1-round casting times. Nice quote-war within your own post, too. It normally takes a thread about the paladin's code or magic item pricing to get that much repetition and contradiction.
SALDAR 03-31-07, 04:24 PM	You can't seem to grasp that while the a full-round action is the most costly time unit commonly used in combat, things can be longer, like things that explicitly say they do, like casting 1-round spells. Explicitly where does it say a full round action can be longer than a full round action? A full round action takes 1 round to complete. A 1 round spell takes a full round action to complete. So a full round action takes 1 round but 1 round takes more than a full round action. A one gallon bucket holds 1 gallon of water but 1 gallon of water overfills a one gallon bucket. According to your interpretation, when casting a spell with a casting time of one minute, I am using a full-round action, stopping, waiting around not casting, using another full-round action at my next opportunity, and repeating it eight more times. I believe you have our interpretations reversed. Mine involves continuous casting for the full round until your next turn comes up at which point you continue casting. Your actions in one round flow into your actions in the next, thus the end of your full round action from round 1 actually meets up with the beginning of your full round action in round 2. Your interpretation has a character's actions ending before the next creature in initiative order begins at which point they would have to wait to continue until the next round. See, I can bold random words from what I have already said and make a new post, too. But you still have not shown explicitly where the rules change 1-round spells to more than a full round action. Too bold?
SALDAR 03-31-07, 04:37 PM	You sure? Because you quoted the exact opposite in your post as well. I'd edit for corrections but that is the way the feat is printed. There is also no need as almost every player knows that when you cast a spell its listed casting time is what determines what action is used to cast it. But for those who don't know, a casting time of more than 1 round requires more than 1 full round action to cast. Good, because it has nothing to do with 1-round spells, which have always been 1-round casting times. So it doesn't take more than 1 round to cast them? Nice quote-war within your own post, too. It normally takes a thread about the paladin's code or magic item pricing to get that much repetition and contradiction. At least I brought support.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 05:00 PM	Explicitly where does it say a full round action can be longer than a full round action? As has been said multiple times, when the action is a special case that is is resolved as a full-round action, can be interrupted at any time following, and does not finish until the next round. Like all the rules surrounding 1-round casting times. You seem to be closing your eyes after the first clause and ignoring all the primary text on 1-round casting spells that show they are NOT like any other action, consuming a full-round action as only part of its requirement. You have absolutely no merit in arguing that an action that explicitly states it takes longer than a full-round action to resolve is a plain-old full-round action. You also haven't addressed how Rapid Spell states that a 1-round casting time spell has to be made Rapid before Quicken can be applied. It is very easy to generate "support" when you only quote the base rules, and ignore all other stated exceptions that override them.
SALDAR 03-31-07, 06:01 PM	As has been said multiple times, when the action is a special case that is is resolved as a full-round action, can be interrupted at any time following, and does not finish until the next round. Like all the rules surrounding 1-round casting times. What special case? It's a simple full round action called Cast a Spell, which explicitly states that it is a full round action and that you continue casting until just before your next turn. A 1 round casting time requires the use of a full round action. Just because your action can be interrupted before you finish it does not change what type of action it is. You can be interrupted when casting a spell using a standard action. Does this mean that it takes more than a standard action to cast? No. It is still a standard action. It doesn't matter what round the casting finishes in as long as it finishes before your next turn. If it doesn't then you have to use some or all of your actions on your next turn to complete it. From the SRD: Start/Complete Full-Round Action The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. You seem to be closing your eyes after the first clause and ignoring all the primary text on 1-round casting spells that show they are NOT like any other action, consuming a full-round action as only part of its requirement. The Cast a Spell full round action description (PHB 143) tells you everthing you need to know concerning 1 round spells. The Casting Time section (PHB 174) also describes spells with a casting time of 1 round and there is nothing in this section that contradicts or changes the Cast a Spell description. These two sections support each other and neither changes a 1 round casting time to use more than a full round action. You have absolutely no merit in arguing that an action that explicitly states it takes longer than a full-round action to resolve is a plain-old full-round action. Nowhere does it explicitly state, or even hint at, a 1 round casting time spell using more than a full round action. There are two sections covering this and neither one supports your view. You also haven't addressed how Rapid Spell states that a 1-round casting time spell has to be made Rapid before Quicken can be applied. It states nothing of the sort. The Rapid Spell feat states that the only spells that these two feats can be used on at the same time are 1 round spells. This keeps people from using them together on multi-round spells to cast them as a free action. It is very easy to generate "support" when you only quote the base rules, and ignore all other stated exceptions that override them. You have provided no exceptions to override the base rules. You are actually trying to use the Full Round Action and the Casting Time descriptions for 1 round spells, both of which define them explicitly as requiring a full round action, to prove that they take more than a full round action to cast.
Timori 03-31-07, 11:04 PM	Full-round action example: Sorc casting a metagmagic fireball. It's full-round so he can only take a 5' step before or after, but the kaboom is still on his initiative. Just like a fighter making three hits with a full attack hits on his initiative. 1 round casting time example: Sorc casting Summon Monster. He casts the spell (and continues casting through everyone elses turn) and finishes just before his next turn. The monster then appears (effectively on his next turn). Both take 6 seconds, 1 round. No longer.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-31-07, 11:16 PM	It states nothing of the sort. The Rapid Spell feat states that the only spells that these two feats can be used on at the same time are 1 round spells. This keeps people from using them together on multi-round spells to cast them as a free action. And why would anyone be applying Rapid Spell in addition to Quicken to a 1-round casting spell if you could reduce it to a swift action with just Quicken, like you falsely believe? That evidence that proves the except? You just agreed to it, for the second time today. It's amazing what you aren't thinking through before you post.
SALDAR 04-01-07, 11:20 AM	And why would anyone be applying Rapid Spell in addition to Quicken to a 1-round casting spell if you could reduce it to a swift action with just Quicken, like you falsely believe? If they read the rules for 1 round casting time spells they wouldn't apply both because they would know that there is no need for Rapid Spell as Quicken Spell does this by itself. As for false belief, I'm not the one saying that the Cast a Spell full round action (defined as 1 full round action on PHB page 143) takes more than 1 full round action to use.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 12:59 PM	If they read the rules for 1 round casting time spells they wouldn't apply both because they would know that there is no need for Rapid Spell as Quicken Spell does this by itself. So now WotC is telling us how metamagic feats work on spells that aren't actually improved by using them (it doesn't say you can't apply Rapid, like Still on somatic-less spells- it tells you WHEN YOU CAN APPLY IT FOR NO EFFECT IF YOU ARE TO BELIEVED)? That is some serious denial you have going there. All evidence against you is either editorial error or nonsensical advice for spending extra spell levels for no effect...sure. That is plausible. Or you could admit you are wrong, and the entire body of evidence quoted against you by others, myself, and even yourself, in previous pages stands against your flawed interpretation.
SALDAR 04-01-07, 02:55 PM	Let me help you out. Here again are the rules for casting 1 round spells. Try reading them. Oh, and if you find anything in them that makes a full round action more than a full round action, be sure to point it out so that those of us that are in denial about the alleged rules you are going on about may have a chance to know what in the Nine Hells you are talking about. Cast a Spell full-round action (PHB page 143) A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from one round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell. You only provoke attacks of opportunity when you begin casting a spell, even though you might continue casting for at least one full round. While casting a spell, you don’t threaten any squares around you. This action is otherwise identical to the cast a spell action described under Standard Actions. CASTING TIME (PHB page 174) Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. Chapter 8: Combat describes the difference between these types of actions. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1- round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell. A spell with a casting time of 1 free action (such as feather fall) doesn’t count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 free action doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. For example, when casting a summon monster spell, you need not decide where you want the monster to appear (or indeed, what monster you are summoning) until the spell comes into effect in the round after you begin casting.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 03:54 PM	You haven't posted anything new yet. All the evidence that overrides them has already been posted. You have not responded to any of them, instead continually posting the same block of text and ignoring the text that contradicts your poor interpretation. If you haven't seen them after they have all been posted multiple times by myself and others, you are never going to see them. Once more with feeling... 1) 1 round spells can be disrupted and nullified by attacks from subsequent actions in the round, while full-round metamagicked spells can only be disrupted by AoOs and readied actions. 2) The definition of 1 round casting time states it is not the same as just a full-round casting time. You quoted it for me. "It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed." So obviously despite taking a full-round action, it has more restrictions and takes longer than a normal full-round action. It is not identical to a meta-magicked spell no matter how much you read only the sentences you like. 3) Rapid Spell states you have to use it as well as Quicken to make a 1-round spell a swift action. You are ignoring this like you do everything else, to claim that Quicken does it by itself. You are hopeless. Luckily, no one else is reading this thread to see you embarrass yourself.
SALDAR 04-01-07, 05:44 PM	You haven't posted anything new yet. All the evidence that overrides them has already been posted. You have not responded to any of them, instead continually posting the same block of text and ignoring the text that contradicts your poor interpretation. If you haven't seen them after they have all been posted multiple times by myself and others, you are never going to see them. I haven't posted anything new because noone has posted any evidence that overrides the rules I have posted. The evidence that you claim overrides my "poor interpretation" is nothing more than a line pulled from here or there from within the very rules telling us what occurs when casting a spell as a full round action. By the rules, when you cast a spell with a 1 round casting time you begin casting on your initiative and finish just before your next turn, at which point the spell takes effect. This is not evidence that it takes more than 1 full round action to cast. On the contrary, it is the very definition of casting a spell as a full round action. Once more with feeling... 1) 1 round spells can be disrupted and nullified by attacks from subsequent actions in the round, while full-round metamagicked spells can only be disrupted by AoOs and readied actions. Whether or not the casting can be disrupted has absolutely no bearing on the subject. 2) The definition of 1 round casting time states it is not the same as just a full-round casting time. You quoted it for me. "It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed." So obviously despite taking a full-round action, it has more restrictions and takes longer than a normal full-round action. It is not identical to a meta-magicked spell no matter how much you read only the sentences you like. The bolded line is completely wrong. The lines you quoted in support of your view directly follow this line under Casting Time (PHB 174): "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action." So, is it a full round action or is it more than a full round action? What you have quoted does not change the preceding line, therefore it is still only a full round action. 3) Rapid Spell states you have to use it as well as Quicken to make a 1-round spell a swift action. You are ignoring this like you do everything else, to claim that Quicken does it by itself. Correction. From Rapid Spell, Complete Divine page 84: "Special: A spell can be made rapid and quickened only if its original casting time was 1 full round." This statement does not require you to rapid a spell before quickening it. It only puts a limit on what spells you can combine these feats on. You are hopeless. Luckily, no one else is reading this thread to see you embarrass yourself. I'm so lucky. At least they know I can base a rules argument on the rules and not on simple conjecture.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 05:51 PM	This statement does not require you to rapid a spell before quickening it. It only puts a limit on what spells you can combine these feats on. And you still haven't answered why anyone would combine Rapid and Quicken on the spells the feat does allow (1-round casting time) when you claim that Quicken all by itself reduces it to a swift action. The rules do not assume anywhere else that wizards are going to be randomly increasing the spell slot required for spells for no effect. You have stated numerous times that Quicken reduces 1-round casting time spells to swift actions. Rapid Spell reduces them to standard actions. Explain in your next post why the authors thought anyone would use both on the same spell, or you concede the thread. After having it said at you four times already, and every time you completely ignore it, you have stopped having a discussion. Finally it is at a rest.
SALDAR 04-02-07, 10:37 PM	And you still haven't answered why anyone would combine Rapid and Quicken on the spells the feat does allow (1-round casting time) when you claim that Quicken all by itself reduces it to a swift action. The rules do not assume anywhere else that wizards are going to be randomly increasing the spell slot required for spells for no effect. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean they would. And as you yourself have pointed out, it wastes a spell level. If they have the spell level to waste then that is their business, not mine (or yours). You have stated numerous times that Quicken reduces 1-round casting time spells to swift actions. And you have stated numurous times that it does not. The only difference is that I have posted the rules supporting my position. You have yet to post any evidence to the contrary. Explain in your next post why the authors thought anyone would use both on the same spell, or you concede the thread. Maybe they thought it was necessary to keep a wizard from getting 1d10 damage per level as a free action. See Channeled Pyroblast, PHBII page 106. After having it said at you four times already, and every time you completely ignore it, you have stopped having a discussion. Finally it is at a rest. This makes my third response to your Rapid Spell theme. I ignored it previously because I didn't have the book with me to verify your claim that both were needed to cast a 1 round spell as a free action. One of my posts actually included the text you were speaking of and showed that your interpretation of that text is incorrect. Both can only be used on a 1 round spell but both are not needed on a 1 round spell.
1hitparry 04-03-07, 12:08 AM	I blame WotC for naming two similar actions with similar names. I got the two confused for a few months when I first made my summoner.
Merestil Haye 04-03-07, 06:12 AM	I blame WotC for naming two similar actions with similar names. I got the two confused for a few months when I first made my summoner.If the designers give different names two two game creations - creatures, powers, lengths of time, anything - in the game, those things are different. Apart from the obvious ("Why bother to think something up when we have a perfectly good name already?" and "using two names for the same thing reduces design space.)" we have testimony from the designers that they give things that are different different labels. The designers chose not to identify the spellcasting time as the same time as a full-round action. Instead they actually created two names. Why? Because these things are different. Since they are different, which one (do you suppose) takes longer? The one where the action is described as "taking place during your turn?" Or the one which is described as "taking place before you start your next turn?"
1hitparry 04-03-07, 01:29 PM	If the designers give different names two two game creations - creatures, powers, lengths of time, anything - in the game, those things are different. Apart from the obvious ("Why bother to think something up when we have a perfectly good name already?" and "using two names for the same thing reduces design space.)" we have testimony from the designers that they give things that are different different labels. The designers chose not to identify the spellcasting time as the same time as a full-round action. Instead they actually created two names. Why? Because these things are different. Since they are different, which one (do you suppose) takes longer? The one where the action is described as "taking place during your turn?" Or the one which is described as "taking place before you start your next turn?" Umm...okay...I wasn't arguing anything. :confused: I was just trying to say that I understand why people would confuse a full round action casting time with a with a 1 round casting time just because at first blush, they seem to take up the same amount of time (1 round's worth of time). I totally agree that 1 round casting time is different from a full round action. I totally agree that a a spell with casting time of 1 round takes longer than a spell that take a full round action to cast. Maybe I'm taking your post too personally, but if you're looking for an argument, go somewehre else. I'm on your side. Sheesh.
Merestil Haye 04-03-07, 02:26 PM	Maybe I'm taking your post too personally, but if you're looking for an argument, go somewehre else. I'm on your side. Sheesh.Sorry about that. Your post gave me the opposite impression, to be honest. Now I understand what you were saying more clearly.
OneWinged4ngel 04-03-07, 02:41 PM	Okay, part one: All of the various Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally spells are full round Yes, but they're not a FULL ROUND ACTION. A one round casting time and a full round action are two completely different things.
1hitparry 04-03-07, 02:44 PM	I figured as much. I think it's unfortunate that full-round action and 1 round both have "round" in their names and they both take up "a round," though 1 round takes up more of a 1 round action than a full-round action. It was clear once someone explained explained to me, but it was confusing at first.
SALDAR 04-03-07, 05:21 PM	Yes, but they're not a FULL ROUND ACTION. A one round casting time and a full round action are two completely different things. Not according to the rules. CASTING TIME (PHB page 174) Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action. Chapter 8: Combat describes the difference between these types of actions. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. So they are the same thing.
SALDAR 04-03-07, 05:24 PM	Double post.
Timori 04-03-07, 07:28 PM	Not according to the rules. A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. So they are the same thing. A Honda is a car, but not all cars are Hondas. A 1 round to cast spell and a metamagic spontaneous spell are both full round actions but the 1 round spell takes longer to come into effect, ergo they are not the same.
1hitparry 04-03-07, 07:41 PM	Darn. I was actually thinking that a full-round action is a standard action (and a move action), but a standard action alone is not a full-round action. Either way, I agree with Timori. When you think about something like a charge (which takes up a full-round action) it takes up both your move action and your standard action, but it resolved during that turn (as in during the same step/phase you decided to make the charge). In this sense, I guess you could arbitrarily say that a full-round action takes 5 of the 6 seconds in a combat round. A 1 round spell is resolved just before your next turn, so it takes up the full 6 seconds. Thbat's just the way I think of it. I expect Saldar to disagree. Honestly, it's not a big problem since we're not in each other's games. I say we let bygones be bygones (assuming I spelled that correctly). Edit: Fixed a spelling error corrected by Saldar.
Timori 04-03-07, 07:57 PM	Well, taken on it's own (I don't own whatever Rapid Spell comes from), Quicken Spell sure looks like it should include 1 round spells. If not, surely the wording would have been "longer than a Standard Action", seeing as the only way to have a full-round action that isn't a 1 round spell is to be a spontaneous metamagic spell, which it specifically states cannot be done. Take the feat on it's own and I agree with Saldar. Throw in Rapid Spell and it makes no sense.
SALDAR 04-03-07, 08:13 PM	A Honda is a car, but not all cars are Hondas. Correct. A Honda is a car. A Chevy is a car. But we are not comparing a Honda to a Chevy, we are comparing a car to a car. We are not comparing a spontaneous metamagic to a 1 round spell, we are comparing a full round action to a full round action, the stated requirement of Quicken Spell. A 1 round to cast spell and a metamagic spontaneous spell are both full round actions but the 1 round spell takes longer to come into effect, ergo they are not the same. Yes, a 1 round spell comes into effect just before your next turn but it does not change the type of action used to cast it. Quicken specifies it cannot be used if the casting time is more than 1 full round action. A spell with a casting time of 1 round, as defined by the rules, is a full round action so its casting time is 1 full round action. Not more. When the spell takes effect is inconsequential as the action used to cast the spell determines whether or not it can be Quickened. 1hitparry: It's bygones.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-03-07, 09:49 PM	Not more. Except, you know, it is.
SALDAR 04-03-07, 09:57 PM	Except, you know, it is. And your evidence?
ClementWillowbreaker 04-03-07, 10:04 PM	And your evidence? Oh? What? I gave it to you two pages ago. You didn't read it because you wanted to post the same text over and over again while deliberately glossing over the contradictions. I don't feel the need to repeat myself.
SALDAR 04-03-07, 11:08 PM	I don't feel the need to repeat myself. Good, because what you posted previously isn't worth the trouble. And it still doesn't prove that a 1 round casting time takes more than 1 full round action.
Timori 04-04-07, 12:46 AM	Yes, a 1 round spell comes into effect just before your next turn but it does not change the type of action used to cast it. Quicken specifies it cannot be used if the casting time is more than 1 full round action. A spell with a casting time of 1 round, as defined by the rules, is a full round action so its casting time is 1 full round action. Not more. When the spell takes effect is inconsequential as the action used to cast the spell determines whether or not it can be Quickened. :confused: You do know I am agreeing with you? Just pointing out that not all full round action spells are the same. :D As I said in my other reply, the feat clearly states it is the casting time that is the determining factor, not the length of time the spell takes to come into effect. If they had meant not to include 1 round spells they would have said "1 round or more" or "longer than a standard action". It's Rapid Spell that confuses the issue. Personally I don't really care about the Rapid Spell anomoly because I don't have Rapid Spell in my campaign.
TheDarkLord 04-04-07, 01:24 AM	Full-round action example: Sorc casting a metagmagic fireball. It's full-round so he can only take a 5' step before or after, but the kaboom is still on his initiative. Just like a fighter making three hits with a full attack hits on his initiative. 1 round casting time example: Sorc casting Summon Monster. He casts the spell (and continues casting through everyone elses turn) and finishes just before his next turn. The monster then appears (effectively on his next turn). Both take 6 seconds, 1 round. No longer. I'm amazed no one has commented on this. This is absolutely correct. When a fighter takes the Full attack action, he is effectively swinging his sword until his next initiative count. With a caster, he is waving his arms and whatnot, the only difference is, the fighter's effect is ongoing and the caster's effect comes into play right before his initiative count. Not to mention you can something like this I believe. RD 1, standard action: Cast a spell, Move action: Begin Full round Spell. RD 2, Standard action: Cast full round spell, Move action: do something else.
Ivellius 04-04-07, 01:27 AM	Since they are different, which one (do you suppose) takes longer? The one where the action is described as "taking place during your turn?" Or the one which is described as "taking place before you start your next turn?" But...in both of these, the action is happening during your turn and before you start your next turn, if the turn you're in is before your next one and the one before your next one is your current turn. Hey, I figured it out, it was a trick question! Do I get a cookie now? :D
Merestil Haye 04-04-07, 07:25 AM	RD 1, standard action: Cast a spell, Move action: Begin Full round Spell. RD 2, Standard action: Cast full round spell, Move action: do something else.No, in fact you cannot do this. There is an action called "Start Full-Round Action" and another called "Complete Full-Round Action." Taking these actions allow a character to split a full-round action over two rounds. Both are standard actions. Meaning that you cannot both cast a spell and start a full-round action in the same round's worth of actions, unless you are a Choker or other creature with a supernatural ability to take extra actions.
TheDarkLord 04-04-07, 12:19 PM	No, in fact you cannot do this. There is an action called "Start Full-Round Action" and another called "Complete Full-Round Action." Taking these actions allow a character to split a full-round action over two rounds. Both are standard actions. Meaning that you cannot both cast a spell and start a full-round action in the same round's worth of actions, unless you are a Choker or other creature with a supernatural ability to take extra actions. Really? Perhaps you can show me where this is then?
TrustTymora 04-04-07, 12:36 PM	Really? Perhaps you can show me where this is then? From the SRD: Start/Complete Full-Round Action The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. Note the that it does not say you can't use this to action start or complete a full round spell casting. The problem is your trying to use it with a "Move Equiv" action and clearly it is not. TT
TheDarkLord 04-04-07, 02:09 PM	Note the that it does not say you can't use this to action start or complete a full round spell casting. The problem is your trying to use it with a "Move Equiv" action and clearly it is not. TT Ah, ok. I've been doing it wrong for alont time now then ;). That said, I see no reason to change it, summon spells should be 1 standard action anyway, think gate.
SALDAR 04-04-07, 09:23 PM	:confused: You do know I am agreeing with you? Just pointing out that not all full round action spells are the same. :D As I said in my other reply, the feat clearly states it is the casting time that is the determining factor, not the length of time the spell takes to come into effect. If they had meant not to include 1 round spells they would have said "1 round or more" or "longer than a standard action". It's Rapid Spell that confuses the issue. Personally I don't really care about the Rapid Spell anomoly because I don't have Rapid Spell in my campaign. I'm sorry, Timori. I was at work and while I was typing I had to do some work so I didn't see your second post until afterwards. But, thanks for the support.
SALDAR 04-04-07, 09:28 PM	But...in both of these, the action is happening during your turn and before you start your next turn, if the turn you're in is before your next one and the one before your next one is your current turn. Hey, I figured it out, it was a trick question! Do I get a cookie now? :D What kind do you like? How about two?:cookie: :cookie: