Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sylvaroth 03-30-07, 02:02 PM	Are there any rules for 'ranged aid anothers' and 'ranged feints'? If not how'd you do it? A new ranged combat feat maybe? FEATS Ranged Feint: ;) VEILED SHOT [GENERAL] You are apt at creating diversions which distract your opponents from your ranged attacks. Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Bluff 4 ranks, Combat Expertise. Benefit: Just before making a ranged attack you can use a move action to make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive check. If you win the opposed check, your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack. Special: A fighter may select Veiled Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. I can shoot around corners, ..., if I want: :cool: TRICK SHOT [GENERAL] Your ranged attacks can ricochet off a surface to hit a target from an unexpected angle. Prerequisites: Dex 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +11. Benefit: To determine whether your ranged attack ignores cover or any form of directional protection the target has relative to you, (e.g. from a shield spell) choose a corner of your square and trace a line from this corner to any one corner of a square where the attack can bounce off a wall or similar convenient surface, to any corner of the target’s square. If any line from the second corner to any corner of the target’s square has line of effect, you can ignore the cover the target has relative to you (even total cover). Range penalties are calculated based on the path from you to the surface to the target. For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +5, your ranged attack may bounce off of one additional surface, to a maximum of four bounces at a base attack bonus of +20. However, each bounce adds a cumulative -4 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -12 for three bounces and -16 for four). Normal: You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. Special: A fighter may select Trick Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Ranged aid another: DIVERSIONARY SHOT [GENERAL] You can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent from a distance. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Benefit: When making a ranged attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat you can attempt to make a Diversionary Shot. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. The target of your attack must be within one range increment of your ranged weapon to attempt a Diversionary Shot. Special: A fighter may select Diversionary Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Thought you saw all of my arrows? Think again: :evillaugh DAWN SHOT [GENERAL] You can disguise one of your range attacks with those that preceded it. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: On your turn, directly following a full attack with your ranged weapon, you can attempt an extra ranged attack at a target that was already hit by one of your previous ranged attacks this round. This attack is at your highest base attack bonus, albeit at a -4 penalty. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against this attack. Using this feat is a swift action. Special: A fighter may select Disguised Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
tarkin 03-30-07, 02:58 PM	Sounds like a good idea for a pair of feats. The feint would mainly help Rogues, so you should take them into account. Also, keep in mind that they need to be able to see what you are doing when they fall for your bluff.
wonlee76 03-30-07, 03:01 PM	The Master Thrower (CW) has a range feint type ability. Sleight of Hand vs. Spot check (I don't remember if its Spot + BAB like feint) instead of the usual Bluff vs. Sense Motive + BAB check. Take a look at that ability to maybe give you an idea as to how to design a range feint type of feat. At the very minimum, Combat Expertise should be a pre-req since Improved Feint has Combat Expertise as a pre-req.
Cartigan 03-30-07, 03:12 PM	Ranged feint isn't even remotely possible. And I don't see any "Ranged feint" like ability of the Master Thrower. OK yeah, there is one ability, but it isn't so much a feint as a ranged sneak attack. Anyway, a ranged feint is impossible because of what a feint is - moving in an unexpected way in combat causing the foe to expose a weakness when moving to attack into the bluffed maneuver.
Tyraxus 03-30-07, 03:39 PM	Feinting with thrown weapons wouldn't be so illogical. Ever fooled someone by pretending to throw something but you keep it palmed? Or seen an MLB pitcher pick somebody off at first (or third) by masking the throw (or ever just seen one balk? It's such an effective feint that it's illegal in MLB)? For a bow or crossbow it's a little more iffy, though.
Sylvaroth 03-30-07, 07:23 PM	A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Now if you can distract people who are aware of you with a successful Bluff check (Standard Action/Move Action with Improved Feint), why can't you perform a Ranged Attack (Standard Action) instead of a Hide check (part of a Move Action). Let's say as a move action you may attempt to distract your opponent from your next attack. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume, if your opponent was successfully distracted, he'd lose his Dex bonus to AC? This is not really feinting, but does actually have the same effect. It is also the same thing (mechanics wise) that the Master Thrower's Sneaky Shot ability does. For example, VEILED SHOT [GENERAL] You are apt at creating diversions which distract your opponents from your ranged attacks. Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Bluff 4 ranks, Combat Expertise. Benefit: Just before making a ranged attack you can use a move action to make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive check. If you win the opposed check, your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack. Special: A fighter may select Veiled Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Cartigan 03-30-07, 08:03 PM	Ranged feint is a terrible name because you can't feint at range. A feint is a melee maneuver. Diversion Shot or Sneak Shot are more precise and just make more sense.
Sylvaroth 03-30-07, 08:26 PM	Though, as you can see above, you can ranged feint in the broadest sense, I agree that it is a misleading name. What about Concealed, Stealth or Veiled Shot?
Cartigan 03-30-07, 09:47 PM	Though, as you can see above, you can ranged feint in the broadest sense, I agree that it is a misleading name. What about Concealed, Stealth or Veiled Shot? I like Veiled Shot, it conveys what it is and sounds unique.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 03:03 AM	Cool, then the Veiled Shot it shall be! Any suggestions concerning prerequisites, notes on effects on rogue abilities, etc.? Next Up: Ranged Aid Anothers
Tichondrus 03-31-07, 04:37 AM	Er... You can ranged aid another, it makes complete sense (espite what the rules might say). Just look at it this way: A and B are two people in melee. C is an ally of B who was a ranged weapon. C can hold his shot until: 1)_ B is about to hit A, shoting then and forcing A to either avoid the arrow as well (making A be less focused on avoiding being hit by B only). 2)_ A is about to hit B, when C shouts something to let A realize that C's shoting at A, making A have to hold himself a bit to not get pierced by C's arrow. Would you rather hold your horses a bit, or have a really lovely toothpick stabbed on your kidney?
Cartigan 03-31-07, 09:34 AM	But then you would need Precise Shot otherwise you arn't really aiding anyone.
Dheran 03-31-07, 10:00 AM	Ranged feint isn't even remotely possible. ... Anyway, a ranged feint is impossible because of what a feint is - moving in an unexpected way in combat causing the foe to expose a weakness when moving to attack into the bluffed maneuver. Anyway, you're making this up, Cartigan. The Feint combat maneuver states nothing to imply that it can't be made at a distance:Feint Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. The only limitation is that you must be able to get close enough to make a melee attack by your next turn. That allows for two move actions (one after the feint, and one at the start of the following turn) before the designated melee attack, so a feint at a significant distance is perfectly legal. Just because you've got a mental image of how feinting works doesn't mean that's how the game is actually designed to be played. As I envision it, feinting could include brandishing your weapon in a menacing manner to get the target's attention, and smiling broadly to unnerve them. Works just as well at 5 feet or 50 feet.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 10:59 AM	Er... You can ranged aid another, it makes complete sense (despite what the rules might say). Just look at it this way: A and B are two people in melee. C is an ally of B who has a ranged weapon. C can hold his shot until: 1)_ B is about to hit A, shooting then and forcing A to either avoid the arrow as well (making A be less focused on avoiding being hit by B only). 2)_ A is about to hit B, when C shouts something to let A realize that C's shooting at A, making A have to hold himself a bit to not get pierced by C's arrow. Would you rather hold your horses a bit, or have a really lovely toothpick stabbed on your kidney? I'd say, (looking at the attack roll vs. AC 10 performed to aid another in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother)) in both cases C shoots at A for two separate reasons (C's choice): To distract A from B's attack (granting a +2 bonus on B's next attack roll against A) To distract A from his own attack against B (granting a +2 bonus to AC against A’s next attack) But then you would need Precise Shot otherwise you arn't really aiding anyone. I concur, Precise Shot would negate the -4 penalty you'd suffer for shooting or throwing into a melee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#shootingorThrowingin toaMelee) if you attempted above mentioned attack vs. AC 10 to ranged aid another. Anyway, you're making this up, Cartigan. The Feint combat maneuver states nothing to imply that it can't be made at a distance: The only limitation is that you must be able to get close enough to make a melee attack by your next turn. That allows for two move actions (one after the feint, and one at the start of the following turn) before the designated melee attack, so a feint at a significant distance is perfectly legal. Just because you've got a mental image of how feinting works doesn't mean that's how the game is actually designed to be played. As I envision it, feinting could include brandishing your weapon in a menacing manner to get the target's attention, and smiling broadly to unnerve them. Works just as well at 5 feet or 50 feet. Your quote is incomplete, Dheran. Feinting in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#feintinginCombat) You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). Though it does not exactly state that the opponent is in melee combat with the character attempting to feint in combat, this is IMO what the RAI of this section are. If one interpreted it your way, the Veiled Shot feat should allow a character to perform a feint without the need of being within the range of two move actions of the opponent. I prefer, however, the first interpretation, (as you may have guessed already :D ) as it dispenses with the calculations of how far the feinting character could move. (40 ft. for a dwarven fighter, 80 ft. for a half-orc barbarian, 160 ft. for a human monk of 15th level, etc.)
Cartigan 03-31-07, 11:29 AM	Anyway, you're making this up, Cartigan. The Feint combat maneuver states nothing to imply that it can't be made at a distance: The only limitation is that you must be able to get close enough to make a melee attack by your next turn. That allows for two move actions (one after the feint, and one at the start of the following turn) before the designated melee attack, so a feint at a significant distance is perfectly legal. If you stretch the rules to fit what you want. Stretched pretty thin too. As I envision it, feinting could include brandishing your weapon in a menacing manner to get the target's attention, and smiling broadly to unnerve them. Works just as well at 5 feet or 50 feet. That's not a feint, that's an intimidate and there are abilities that apply to what you are describing separately.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 12:47 PM	TRICK SHOT [GENERAL] Your ranged attacks can ricochet off a surface to hit a target from an unexpected angle. Prerequisites: Dex 13. Benefit: To determine whether your ranged attack ignores cover or any form of directional protection the target has relative to you, (e.g. from a shield spell) choose a corner of your square and trace a line from this corner to any one corner of a square where the attack can bounce off a wall or similar convenient surface, to any corner of the target’s square. If any line from the second corner to any corner of the target’s square has line of effect, you can ignore the cover the target has relative to you. Range penalties are calculated based on the path from you to the surface to the target. For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +5, your ranged attack may bounce off of one additional surface, to a maximum of four bounces at a base attack bonus of +20. However, each additional bounce after the first adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -4 for three bounces and -6 for four). Suggestion: DIVERSIONARY SHOT [GENERAL] You can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent from a distance. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot. Benefit: When making a ranged attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat you can attempt to make a Diversionary Shot. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. The target of your attack must be within one range increment of your ranged weapon to attempt a Diversionary Shot. Special: A fighter may select Diversionary Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. New Idea: Flanking Shot [General] (Name?) You can fire multiple arrows simultaneously, one of which hits the target by surprise. Prerequisites: Many Shot, Trick Shot, Veiled Shot Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire multiple arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. The target of this attack, however, loses his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against one of your arrows which qualifies for the effect of a Trick Shot. Special: Regardless of whether the attack qualifies for a sneak attack, the Trick Shot does nonetheless deal sneak attack damage on a successful hit. A fighter may select Flanking Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. It seems to be hard to qualify for this feat. (minimum requirements: 7 feats, Bluff 4 ranks, Dex 17, Int 13, base attack bonus +6) A non-human character of a class without bonus feats would possibly never qualify. A fighter of the same race could choose the feat at 8th level, while a rogue who took bonus feats instead of special abilities would have to wait until level 15. A human character of a class without bonus feats could qualify at level 18. A human fighter could choose the feat at 6th level, while a human rogue who took bonus feats instead of special abilities would have to wait until level 13. Is this a coherent and useful feat?
Cartigan 03-31-07, 01:46 PM	Suggestion: Diversionary Shot [General] You can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent from a distance. Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Benefit: When shooting into melee, you can choose to make your attack a Diversionary Shot. A Diversionary Shot works as if you were aiding another in combat. The target and effect for Diversionary Shot must be chosen before attacking. The target of your attack must be within one range increment to attempt a Diversionary Shot. Using this feat provokes attacks of opportunity. New Idea: Disguised Shot [General] You can fire multiple arrows simultaneously, one of which hits the target by surprise. Prerequisites: Manyshot, Veiled Shot Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire multiple arrows at a single target as described by Manyshot. In addition to the base number of arrows, one additional arrow may be fired as a swift action with a separate attack roll and an attack penalty of -4 stacking with the rules of Manyshot. The target is considered flat-footed against this extra arrow. Special: A fighter may select Flanking Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Fixed? It seems to be hard to qualify for this feat. (minimum requirements: 7 feats, Bluff 4 ranks, Dex 17, Int 13, base attack bonus +6) I cut it down to 6 feats.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 02:13 PM	Your Disguised Shot is pretty much a completely different feat and it still requires you to take 6 feats, have a Dex of 17, an Int of 13, 4 ranks in Bluff and a BAB of +6 before you qualify. I'd suggest to make it a Combat Form feat, leave out its Manyshot mechanics (one standard action followed-up by a swift action ranged attack) and make Combat Focus and Veiled Shot the only prerequisites, thus cutting further down to 4 feats, BAB +5, Int&Wis 13, and 4 ranks of Bluff.
Cartigan 03-31-07, 02:22 PM	I don't like the name Divisionary Shot much, sorry. Call in Thesaurusman then. And it's Diversionary Shot, but Divisionary Shot sounds like fun name for some other feat yet described. Your Disguised Shot is pretty much a completely different feat and it still requires you to take 6 feats, have a Dex of 17, an Int of 13, 4 ranks in Bluff and a BAB of +6 before you qualify. I didn't think yours made much sense. I'd suggest to make it a Combat Form feat, leave out its Manyshot mechanics (one standard action followed-up by a swift action ranged attack) and make Combat Focus and Veiled Shot the only prerequisites, thus cutting further down to 4 feats, BAB +5, Int&Wis 13, and 4 ranks of Bluff. You could always cut it down to a Rapid Shot requirement instead. And I don't see what purpose Improved Feint holds in Veiled Shot anyway.
Tonil 03-31-07, 03:03 PM	Ranged feint is a terrible name because you can't feint at range. A feint is a melee maneuver. Diversion Shot or Sneak Shot are more precise and just make more sense. The name "Ranged Feint" conveys the idea that this feat allows you to make a melee maneuver at range. This follows the convention in the Complete Warrior of the feats "Ranged Disarm" and "Ranged Sunder."
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 03:08 PM	Call in Thesaurusman then. And it's Diversionary Shot, but Divisionary Shot sounds like fun name for some other feat yet described. Sorry, my fault. If it is diversionary then its cool with me. :D I didn't think yours made much sense. And why's that:confused: Think of it as a ranged attack version of those movie scenes, where the villain thinks the hero missed him with his sword, when he really cut the rope of the chandelier right above his head. *SMASH* :ghosted: You could always cut it down to a Rapid Shot requirement instead. While that wouldn't work with my feat, it would probably do so with yours: Disguised Shot [General] (Name?) You can disguise one of your range attacks with those that preceded it. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: Following a full attack with your ranged weapon, you can fire your Rapid Shot extra attack as a swift action against a target that was already hit by one of your previous ranged attacks this round. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against this attack. Special: A fighter may select Disguised Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Thinking about it this could actually mix pretty well with my idea. Adding Trick Shot to the prerequisites you could make a full attack right into the target's face, followed-up by a Trick Shot into its back. (anyone else thinking this would be impossible in RL? maybe worth an addition to Trick Shot, enabling a projectile to bounce off of one more surface for every five points of base attack bonus you have above +5?) And I don't see what purpose Improved Feint holds in Veiled Shot anyway. Probably only for the 'Bluff as a move action instead of a standard action'-part. The name "Ranged Feint" conveys the idea that this feat allows you to make a melee maneuver at range. This follows the convention in the Complete Warrior of the feats "Ranged Disarm" and "Ranged Sunder." While I concur, I still think it might be misleading.
Cartigan 03-31-07, 03:30 PM	The name "Ranged Feint" conveys the idea that this feat allows you to make a melee maneuver at range. This follows the convention in the Complete Warrior of the feats "Ranged Disarm" and "Ranged Sunder." Which are perfectly doable at range. You cannot feint at range. You can use a kusarigama to disarm at range or shoot a really good shot. And if you are throwing something big enough or blunt enough, I suppose you could sunder at range - the feat makes a note against doing it with arrows, bolts, or darts. You cannot feint at range. A disarm and sunder attacks, a feint is a defensive maneuver And why's that:confused: Think of it as a ranged attack version of those movie scenes, where the villain thinks the hero missed him with his sword, when he really cut the rope of the chandelier right above his head. *SMASH* :ghosted: That's a different feat too - you would be faking an attack in order to cause environment damage. Your shot tries to combine multishot and trick shot - not possible because if you are knocking and firing two ore more arrows (which I'm pretty sure manyshot is), its pretty hard to make them go two significantly different ways - not how you intend them to anyway. Probably only for the 'Bluff as a move action instead of a standard action'-part. I know what Improved Feint does and Feinting (as used in D&D) still has nothing to do with ranged attacks.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 04:06 PM	Could we just agree that Veiled Shot is pretty much the same as a ranged Improved Feint (at least mechanics wise)? I'll delete Improved Feint from Veiled Shot now.
Cartigan 03-31-07, 04:15 PM	It's a Ranged Sneak Attack, well if Sneak Attack wasn't an ability itself. Rather its a Ranged "sneaky" attack.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 04:26 PM	It's a Ranged Sneak Attack, well if Sneak Attack wasn't an ability itself. Rather its a Ranged "sneaky" attack. True, and the attack following a feint is a melee "sneaky" attack :D
Cartigan 03-31-07, 04:39 PM	True, and the attack following a feint is a melee "sneaky" attack :DTechnically, possibly. However.. I'm done, if you people somehow don't understand what a feint is by now, I obviously can't help you.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 05:03 PM	Guy, calm down a little or leave this thread alone! Everybody knows what feinting is, but the mechanics (as in rules) of feinting are not essentially the same as feinting (as in fluff), since these same rules can be encountered in various situations and actions.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 05:13 PM	Btw. I think a rogue with the Trick Shot and Disguised/Flanking Shot feats can do exactly what I wanted for the original Flanking Shot. Instead of firing the swift Rapid Shot directly at the target, the archer could fire it as a Trick Shot to hit the target where it really hurts. You could also fire a full attack at a target with cover, finishing it off with your last swift Rapid Trick Shot (which also deals sneak attack damage since the target is denied its Dex bon to AC). I am aware that the direct shot in the first example would be more likely to hit, but this is not nearly as spectacular of course. :cool:
Tonil 03-31-07, 06:25 PM	I thought I remembered a feint with range like you are suggesting, but I thought perhaps I was thinking of the Master Thrower ability "Sneaky Shot," mentioned by Wonlee76 above. But it was "Bow Feint." This feat was in Dragon #350. That version allowed a normal 'Feint in Combat' if you were within 30'. The target must be able to see you and your bow must be already loaded with ammunition. Prerequisites are Int 13 and Point Blank Shot I got that from an Index, not the magazine, so I have no other details. In comparision to your "Veiled Shot," this one requires the standard action bluff. Yours is like "Bow Feint" with Improved Feint added in, but also higher prerequisites to get it.
Cartigan 03-31-07, 06:34 PM	I still say that's ridiculous.
Sylvaroth 03-31-07, 06:49 PM	I thought I remembered a feint with range like you are suggesting, but I thought perhaps I was thinking of the Master Thrower ability "Sneaky Shot," mentioned by Wonlee76 above. But it was "Bow Feint." This feat was in Dragon #350. That version allowed a normal 'Feint in Combat' if you were within 30'. The target must be able to see you and your bow must be already loaded with ammunition. Prerequisites are Int 13 and Point Blank Shot I got that from an Index, not the magazine, so I have no other details. In comparison to your "Veiled Shot," this one requires the standard action bluff. Yours is like "Bow Feint" with Improved Feint added in, but also higher prerequisites to get it. Written by Mark A. Hart, Bow Feint is essentially feint in combat with 30 ft. range (as opposed to melee range), and Point Blank Shot, and Int 13 as prerequisites. I still say that's ridiculous. Nobody cares what you say! Get out of here if you have nothing to add but 'you cannot ranged feint'! Any further posts of that kind will be regarded as spamming/trolling which in turn will have the usual consequences.
Sylvaroth 04-01-07, 04:07 AM	Do you think this is possible: A rogue (Trick Shot and Disguised/Flanking Shot) fires a hail of arrows (full attack) against an opponent who is in melee with the rogue's ally (both wear shields). Then he fires his swift Rapid Trick Shot at the ally's shield (surface) which then denies the opponent his Dex bonus to AC and ignores his shield bonus. Is a shield a surface that qualifies as convenient for the purpose of Trick Shot bounces? :D New Ideas: Ranged Flanking (feat version of the ranger's Distracting Attack option from PHBII) Opportunist feat (as the rogues special ability), Twin Shot (two simultaneously fired ranged attacks aimed at two opponents who must be within a cone-shaped area)
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 10:30 AM	bump :bump:
Witch 04-02-07, 10:42 AM	By Sylvaroth's request (I've no time to read the entire thread so far): VEILED SHOT [GENERAL] You are apt at creating diversions which distract your opponents from your ranged attacks. Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +5, Bluff 4 ranks, Combat Expertise. Benefit: Just before making a ranged attack you can use a move action to make a Bluff check opposed by the target's Sense Motive check. If you win the opposed check, your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against the attack. Special: A fighter may select Veiled Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. I disagree with this concept. It doesn't work. In a melee fight, you stab at different directions, making false movements, etcetera, making people think you're going for something else. In ranged combat... you fire an arrow or bolt. Moving weirdly will have no significant impact. I have an analogous objection towards the ranged aid another. TRICK SHOT [GENERAL] Your ranged attacks can ricochet off a surface to hit a target from an unexpected angle. Prerequisites: Dex 13. Benefit: To determine whether your ranged attack ignores cover or any form of directional protection the target has relative to you, (e.g. from a shield spell) choose a corner of your square and trace a line from this corner to any one corner of a square where the attack can bounce off a wall or similar convenient surface, to any corner of the target’s square. If any line from the second corner to any corner of the target’s square has line of effect, you can ignore the cover the target has relative to you. Range penalties are calculated based on the path from you to the surface to the target. For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +5, your ranged attack may bounce off of one additional surface, to a maximum of four bounces at a base attack bonus of +20. However, each additional bounce after the first adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -4 for three bounces and -6 for four). This feat just seems supernatural to me. Even then, though, it'd make sense if even the first one has a penalty to the attack roll. Disguised Shot [General] (Name?) You can disguise one of your range attacks with those that preceded it. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: Following a full attack with your ranged weapon, you can fire your Rapid Shot extra attack as a swift action against a target that was already hit by one of your previous ranged attacks this round. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against this attack. Special: A fighter may select Disguised Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. This seems like an interesting option - but I'd like to see the rationale for how it works a bit more.
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 11:45 AM	By Sylvaroth's request (I've no time to read the entire thread so far): Thanks for dropping by, Whitch! S'always a pleasure :tiphat: I disagree with this concept. It doesn't work. In a melee fight, you stab at different directions, making false movements, etcetera, making people think you're going for something else. In ranged combat... you fire an arrow or bolt. Moving weirdly will have no significant impact. I have an analogous objection towards the ranged aid another. Veiled Shot mixes the mechanics of Creating a Diversion to Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#creatingaDiversiontoHide) and Feinting in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#feintinginCombat). Basically it generates the momentary diversion you need to mislead an opponent who is aware of you so he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next ranged attack you make against him. I think if you can create diversions so people cannot see where you hide, you can do the same for your next attack (e.g. by shouting 'Watch your back, there is a three headed monkey behind you!!!' :D). It is like distracting the opponent > hiding > sniping only without the hiding part ;) To make a Diversionary Shot you make a ranged attack roll vs. AC 10 (akin to the attack roll you have to make to aid another in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother)) to achieve one of the following results: distract the opponent from your friend's attack, (granting a +2 bonus on your friend's next attack roll against the opponent) distract the opponent from his own attack against your friend (granting a +2 bonus to AC against the opponent's next attack) Don't you agree that an arrow that whooshes past your nose or a dagger that hits your armor (without actually penetrating it) is a sufficient distraction to briefly divert your attention away from your adjacent opponent? This feat just seems supernatural to me. Even then, though, it'd make sense if even the first one has a penalty to the attack roll. The mechanics of this one is actually a derivative of an actual feat (WarCraftCS), only the additional bounces have been added and those do include penalties. Do you think it would make sense that you could do a one-bounce w/o penalty, while e.g. a two-bounce would suffer a -4 to the attack roll (two cumulative -2 penalties for each bounce)? This seems like an interesting option - but I'd like to see the rationale for how it works a bit more. Well you fire a full-attack of e.g. arrows (which hog the limelight of the target who tries to dodge, resp. deflect them, or deal with actual hits), followed by one swift action shot that hits the occupied target completely unaware.
Cartigan 04-02-07, 12:18 PM	This seems like an interesting option - but I'd like to see the rationale for how it works a bit more. It was more straightforward before he adapted it from my suggestion, but he did explain it properly - fire multiple arrows and use the arrow storm to disguise a quick knocked and fired last arrow that would (fantasy theoretically) catch the opponent off his guard (read flat-footed).
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 12:35 PM	Speaking of which, maybe the swift shot should have a penalty, e.g. -2? It was more straightforward before he adapted it from my suggestion,... Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but looking at the way you behaved in this thread, I don't care too much for yours.
Cartigan 04-02-07, 12:47 PM	Speaking of which, maybe the swift shot should have a penalty, e.g. -2? I had already suggested -4 and with a separate attack roll, but whatever you like.
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 12:53 PM	I had already suggested -4 and with a separate attack roll, but whatever you like. Since Manyshot is no prerequisite for this feat, I think I should use Rapid Shot's -2 penalty. I am unsure, however, whether I should delete the whole swift action-thing (so that the only benefit of this feat was, that its target lost its Dex bonus to AC against the Rapid Shot extra ranged attack) imposing a -2 penalty to all attacks (the extra one and the normal ones) or to keep the swift extra ranged attack (at your highest base attack bonus), albeit at a -4 penalty.
Witch 04-02-07, 01:26 PM	Thanks for dropping by, Whitch! S'always a pleasure :tiphat: No problem - bit late though, just got back from a holiday weekend :) Veiled Shot mixes the mechanics of Creating a Diversion to Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#creatingaDiversiontoHide) and Feinting in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#feintinginCombat). Basically it generates the momentary diversion you need to mislead an opponent who is aware of you so he is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next ranged attack you make against him. I think if you can create diversions so people cannot see where you hide, you can do the same for your next attack (e.g. by shouting 'Watch your back, there is a three headed monkey behind you!!!' :D). It is like distracting the opponent > hiding > sniping only without the hiding part ;) I'd give a penalty to the bluff check in that regard. Apology, by the way, but I can't read the section on diversions - d20srd seems to be down. To make a Diversionary Shot you make a ranged attack roll vs. AC 10 (akin to the attack roll you have to make to aid another in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother)) to achieve one of the following results: distract the opponent from your friend's attack, (granting a +2 bonus on your friend's next attack roll against the opponent) distract the opponent from his own attack against your friend (granting a +2 bonus to AC against the opponent's next attack) Don't you agree that an arrow that whooshes past your nose or a dagger that hits your armor (without actually penetrating it) is a sufficient distraction to briefly divert your attention away from your adjacent opponent? I like the principle, but I'm not sure how easily it can be done as to make sense in a turn-based system (other than by readied actions). The mechanics of this one is actually a derivative of an actual feat (WarCraftCS), only the additional bounces have been added and those do include penalties. Do you think it would make sense that you could do a one-bounce w/o penalty, while e.g. a two-bounce would suffer a -4 to the attack roll (two cumulative -2 penalties for each bounce)? Warcraft CS isn't known for it's incredible sense of balance, ofcourse. I'm not contesting any balance issues here, though, but I don't think it makes sense for an arrow that you shoot into a wall to not take penalties on the attack roll. Well you fire a full-attack of e.g. arrows (which hog the limelight of the target who tries to dodge, resp. deflect them, or deal with actual hits), followed by one swift action shot that hits the occupied target completely unaware. Seems good. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but looking at the way you behaved in this thread, I don't care too much for yours. Nownow, no need for that :)
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 02:09 PM	No problem - bit late though, just got back from a holiday weekend :) No biggie, I hope you've had a good time? I'd give a penalty to the bluff check in that regard. Apology, by the way, but I can't read the section on diversions - d20srd seems to be down. Creating a Diversion to Hide You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity. I like the principle, but I'm not sure how easily it can be done as to make sense in a turn-based system (other than by readied actions). Since aid another in combat is a standard action, I don't think it should be different if you are able to make a ranged attack instead of being in the position to make a melee attack on the target opponent. Warcraft CS isn't known for it's incredible sense of balance, of course. I'm not contesting any balance issues here, though, but I don't think it makes sense for an arrow that you shoot into a wall to not take penalties on the attack roll. I thought so, too. I will move the penalties up to -2 for a one-bounce to -8 for a four-bounce. Seems good. While I agree :D I think I should add latter of my above suggestions (the -4 penalty) for the swift extra attack. In the end performing a free action and a standard action as one swift action -very likely not provoking an AoO while doing so- should make it very hard to aim the ranged attack properly (so that a -4 penalty would not be all that off). Nownow, no need for that :) I agree. I should behave myself in the company of a lady ;)
Cartigan 04-02-07, 02:46 PM	Since Manyshot is no prerequisite for this feat, I think I should use Rapid Shot's -2 penalty. I am unsure, however, whether I should delete the whole swift action-thing (so that the only benefit of this feat was, that its target lost its Dex bonus to AC against the Rapid Shot extra ranged attack) imposing a -2 penalty to all attacks (the extra one and the normal ones) or to keep the swift extra ranged attack (at your highest base attack bonus), albeit at a -4 penalty. The swift action in mine was for balance purposes - you can only perform 1 swift action a round, though since it is a full round attack, it is probably pointless. Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, but looking at the way you behaved in this thread, I don't care too much for yours. Then maybe you shouldn't re-adapt my suggestions then get mad when your adaptation is harder to understand because you cut out all the specifics that made the point deducible.
Witch 04-02-07, 02:47 PM	I agree. I should behave myself in the company of a lady ;) Where? I don't see one :P Even though the screen name hints towards that ;)
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 03:29 PM	Where? I don't see one :P Even though the screen name hints towards that ;) :D The swift action in mine was for balance purposes - you can only perform 1 swift action a round, though since it is a full round attack, it is probably pointless. I actually like the idea of making the shot a swift action. DAWN SHOT [GENERAL] You can disguise one of your range attacks with those that preceded it. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: On your turn, directly following a full attack with your ranged weapon, you can attempt an extra ranged attack at a target that was already hit by one of your previous ranged attacks this round. This attack is at your highest base attack bonus, albeit at a -4 penalty. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against this attack. Using this feat is a swift action. Special: A fighter may select Disguised Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Deal? Then maybe you shouldn't re-adapt my suggestions then get mad when your adaptation is harder to understand because you cut out all the specifics that made the point deducible. I apologize for being rude, Cartigan. Though I might not agree with everything you said, you did also make some very interesting suggestions. Peace?
Cartigan 04-02-07, 03:59 PM	:D I actually like the idea of making the shot a swift action. DAWN SHOT [GENERAL] You can disguise one of your range attacks with those that preceded it. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: On your turn, directly following a full attack with your ranged weapon, you can attempt an extra ranged attack at a target that was already hit by one of your previous ranged attacks this round. This attack is at your highest base attack bonus, albeit at a -4 penalty. The target is denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against this attack. Using this feat is a swift action. Special: A fighter may select Disguised Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. Deal? I apologize for being rude, Cartigan. Though I might not agree with everything you said, you did also make some very interesting suggestions. Peace? Fair enough
Sylvaroth 04-02-07, 04:58 PM	Any comments about the Dawn Shot feat?
theotherdraxen 04-02-07, 09:58 PM	Interesting idea, Sylvaroth. However, given the functionality of those, I'd suggest making them into Skill Tricks. An archer build already has a whole bunch of feats eaten up (Greater-Many Shot+Scout/Ranger is a good Archer build), and of your 7 feats, these won't serve enough of a purpose to really be worth selecting them over the plethora of feats needed to make a good archer. If you have Complete Scoundrel, I think you'll find that the skill tricks there will work perfectly. For Veiled Shot, all you need is Improved Feint (leave out the other prerequisites in case one acquires it without meeting the prerequisites). For Trick Shot, Precise Shot is probably a good prerequisite. Disguised Shot seems...off. A ranged rogue build will be able to get off one sneak attack per round regardless of his enemies wisdom, sense motive, ect. With a splitting bow, assassin stance (martial study>martial stance, or level-dip swordsage), and other SA boosters (a magic enhancement), you can end up with something like 30d6 SA a round, and the enemy can't do anything about it (heh, unless he has heavy fortification). TWFing rogues have to risk getting into melee in order to flank. Ironically, IMO, this one is too powerful, while the others were not enough. It's really hard to find that fine line of what's balanced in D&D.
Sylvaroth 04-03-07, 11:25 AM	Interesting idea, Sylvaroth. Thanks a lot, nice to have you here, drax. However, given the functionality of those, I'd suggest making them into Skill Tricks. Looking at my last explanation of Veiled Shot, the very same thought occurred to me, but see below. An archer build already has a whole bunch of feats eaten up (Greater-Many Shot+Scout/Ranger is a good Archer build), and of your 7 feats, these won't serve enough of a purpose to really be worth selecting them over the plethora of feats needed to make a good archer. I guess I'll have to trust your judgment here. If you have Complete Scoundrel, I think you'll find that the skill tricks there will work perfectly. For Veiled Shot, all you need is Improved Feint (leave out the other prerequisites in case one acquires it without meeting the prerequisites). For Trick Shot, Precise Shot is probably a good prerequisite. I'll have to take a closer look at CS to further familiarize myself with skill tricks. I just skimmed through CS, but thought they were a really cool idea. Note, however that the subject of ranged feints and the Improved Feint feat as a prerequisite for such abilities have been heavily disputed in this thread (though my initial thought was to include Improved Feint for the effect of making feinting a move action rather than a standard action). Disguised Shot seems...off. A ranged rogue build will be able to get off one sneak attack per round regardless of his enemies wisdom, sense motive, ect. With a splitting bow, assassin stance (martial study>martial stance, or level-dip swordsage), and other SA boosters (a magic enhancement), you can end up with something like 30d6 SA a round, and the enemy can't do anything about it (heh, unless he has heavy fortification). TWFing rogues have to risk getting into melee in order to flank. I see nothing wrong with that. A character with the above described features would deal a good amount of damage even without having the DS feat. Still, I am open for suggestions to make this feat more balanced. Note that it has been suggested to make DS a combat form feat. Any ideas popping up? Ironically, IMO, this one is too powerful, while the others were not enough. It's really hard to find that fine line of what's balanced in D&D. :detect:
Sylvaroth 04-03-07, 03:05 PM	So, if we made Veiled Shot, Trick Shot and Diversionary Shot into skill tricks, a 6th-level character could once per encounter attempt to make a ranged aid another, ranged feint, and fire a one-bounce? Would that not make those feats even less powerful? What do you suggest we should do to make those worthwhile feats (resp. what should their skill trick counterparts look like)?
theotherdraxen 04-04-07, 12:07 AM	Thanks a lot, nice to have you here, drax. No problem. Always glad to help. I'll have to take a closer look at CS to further familiarize myself with skill tricks. I just skimmed through CS, but thought they were a really cool idea. Note, however that the subject of ranged feints and the Improved Feint feat as a prerequisite for such abilities have been heavily disputed in this thread (though my initial thought was to include Improved Feint for the effect of making feinting a move action rather than a standard action). Well, as a feat, I wouldn't suggest making Improved Feint a prerequisite, since being at a range already removes the AoO that you normally provoke. The +4 bonus is just a nice benefit. I see nothing wrong with that. A character with the above described features would deal a good amount of damage even without having the DS feat. Right, but he'd have to get into position or be limited in other ways. The DS feat is an assured sneak attack shot. While the rest have a bigger pay-out, they're less reliable. Still, I am open for suggestions to make this feat more balanced. Note that it has been suggested to make DS a combat form feat. Any ideas popping up? Offer a defense against it. Not one easily acquired, though, so most enemies will be vulnerable to it. A spot check would be nice (opposed by your attack roll +4), as that will create a 'hard to trick the trickster' scenario, since most archer/rogues are (iconically) good with spot as well. So, if we made Veiled Shot, Trick Shot and Diversionary Shot into skill tricks, a 6th-level character could once per encounter attempt to make a ranged aid another, ranged feint, and fire a one-bounce? Would that not make those feats even less powerful? What do you suggest we should do to make those worthwhile feats (resp. what should their skill trick counterparts look like)? Wait, skill tricks are useable once per encounter? I must have missed that. If you want to use them more often, I'd suggest wrapping them all up into one tactical feat.
Sylvaroth 04-04-07, 11:39 AM	No problem. Always glad to help. Always good to know ;) Well, as a feat, I wouldn't suggest making Improved Feint a prerequisite, since being at a range already removes the AoO that you normally provoke. The +4 bonus is just a nice benefit. Since feinting in combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#feintinginCombat) doesn't provoke AoOs anyhow, I am not too sure what you mean. Also, what +4 bonus are you referring to? Also look at the Bow Feint feat from Dragon Magazine #350 which enables you to do a feint with a ranged weapon, as long as you are within 30 ft. of the target and have said ranged weapon readied. This feat does have a Int 13/Point Blank Shot prerequisite. Now, if one regards Veiled Shot as 'Improved Bow Feint', it should at lest negate the 30 ft. requirement. I am actually pondering to replace Combat Expertise with PBS and maybe Precise Shot!? to justify this. However, the Bluff skill description doesn't state any range requirements for creating a diversion to hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm#creatingaDiversiontoHide), so PBS could be sufficient (especially if we kept the BAB prerequisite). Right, but he'd have to get into position or be limited in other ways. The DS feat is an assured sneak attack shot. While the rest have a bigger pay-out, they're less reliable. Offer a defense against it. Not one easily acquired, though, so most enemies will be vulnerable to it. A spot check would be nice (opposed by your attack roll +4), as that will create a 'hard to trick the trickster' scenario, since most archer/rogues are (iconically) good with spot as well. Basically I think that's a good idea, but I am not sure, if a Spot check (or for what it's worth any skill check) as opposed to a Concentration check or a Ref save was more appropriate. Wait, skill tricks are usable once per encounter? I must have missed that. Skill checks can be used by every character who meets the prerequisites and is willing to pay 2 skill points for them. They are all usable once per encounter or once per minute OoC. Some classes, resp. PrCs from CS do, however, increase this number of uses. If you want to use them more often, I'd suggest wrapping them all up into one tactical feat. Like how :confused:
Sylvaroth 09-03-07, 09:00 AM	bump :bump: