Ranged Sneak attack due to flanking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ranged Sneak attack due to flanking [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Khetan
08-07-07, 03:17 PM Hello,

Please assist in clarifying... I'm sure that I saw this somewhere, but I cannot find it, and I'm often wrong, so I'm not sure.

With flanking "Creatures become susceptible to sneak attacks when flanked because they must divide their attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a

Ok that's clear.

Also clear is "You can flank with any melee weapon, including a reach weapon, but you cannot flank with a ranged weapon." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a

Here's the part I think I remember seeing someplace... If the setup is as follows:

| | | Ally|BBEG| Ally| | | Rog|

The melee allies are providing flanking along the same line as the Rogue (w/i 30') is attempting to make an attack. Of course we apply all applicable firing into melee and cover penatlies. But in this situation, would not then the BBEG be distracted in respect to the line of fire of the Rogue and then "divide [its] attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks." and thus the rogue would get sneak attack damage even though she did not create the flanking op. herself?

Any officially published material in regards to this would be extremely helpfull.

Thank you in advance for your kind and helpful responses.
Nezkrul
08-07-07, 03:42 PM without special rules, you can never flank with a ranged weapon. That means you need to either go first in the first round of combat/surprise round to get SA damage with a ranged weapon, or snipe the target and hope he doesn't see you.
SilentOne
08-07-07, 03:46 PM The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
It doesn't matter if the target is flanked, but whether or not the rogue is the one that's actually flanking the target. Chalk this up to the rogue knowing exactly how to exploit an intimate weakness that close that other characters wouldn't force, or whatever, but by RAW, the rogue needs to be flanking, not just attacking a flanked character.
tarkin
08-07-07, 03:55 PM Flanking is something you DO, not something you have done to you. That is why it is called 'being flanked' instead of 'flanked'. This is different from 'prone' or 'shaken' or 'flatfooted' because all of those are things that are done to you, not something you do.

It is kind of like locking someone in your missile sites, or being directly behind your enemey.

The fact that I am directly behind you with my guns targetting you helps ME to hit you, it does not help anyone else to hit you, not even my wingman.

The fact that you are being followed by me does not put you in a condition of being followed, instead it represents a RELATIONSHIP between you and me.

It would take a very strange ability (read prestige class, not a feat) to let a third party benefit when due to the fact that I am doing something to you.
Khetan
08-07-07, 04:04 PM Tarkin - In regards to the relationship, yes, flanking is something that one does, but it is also a state that one becomes; "flanked". And I've shown where that is described as a state of being.

Nezkrul - The rogues ability to generate flanking w/ a ranged weapon was never in question.

SilentOne - Thank you for providing quoted example for this. It really helps seperate rule from opinion, which is what we're seeking.

I still think I saw something about thins in one of those nice printed WotC pictures w/ Iconic examples, and something about the range attack getting the same flanking bonus due to the melee units, blah blah blah, BUT, so far it does look as though the need is for the rogue to create the flanking for a RAW item.

Thank you all for the responses and if you do find or remember something more, please share, even if not quoted, page numbers are good too.
tarkin
08-07-07, 07:08 PM You are mostly arguing semantics. And doing it poorly.

If I am flanked by you and your buddy, you get a bonus, I do not have ANY penalty on me. As such, it is not a state I am in, but instead an action you and your buddies are doing.

You claimed otherwise by using a Rules of the Game article. Big mistake. Newbie mistake in fact.

The Rules of the Game articles are known to be seriously flawed. They routinely contradict core things and routinely put out House Rules. Sometimes they say that is what they are doing, other times they don't bother to mention it.

The fact that your Rules of the Game article is worded so as to imply that there is a state called flanked is laughable as evidence. Even if it outrighted wrote that a state called flanked exists, it would at best be something to think about, not to rely on.

As is, you have proven nothing but that you rely on bad sources of information.

Here is a list of real states that as per the core rules you can put your opponent in (from the SRD, a reliable source)
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm

Here is the description of the ACTION called Flanking, again from the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking

Flanking is something you do, not a state/condition you become. The fact that other people are flanking you does NOTHING to you, it just gives those specific people a bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khetan 08-07-07, 03:17 PM	Hello, Please assist in clarifying... I'm sure that I saw this somewhere, but I cannot find it, and I'm often wrong, so I'm not sure. With flanking "Creatures become susceptible to sneak attacks when flanked because they must divide their attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a Ok that's clear. Also clear is "You can flank with any melee weapon, including a reach weapon, but you cannot flank with a ranged weapon." http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a Here's the part I think I remember seeing someplace... If the setup is as follows: \| \| \| Ally\|BBEG\| Ally\| \| \| Rog\| The melee allies are providing flanking along the same line as the Rogue (w/i 30') is attempting to make an attack. Of course we apply all applicable firing into melee and cover penatlies. But in this situation, would not then the BBEG be distracted in respect to the line of fire of the Rogue and then "divide [its] attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks." and thus the rogue would get sneak attack damage even though she did not create the flanking op. herself? Any officially published material in regards to this would be extremely helpfull. Thank you in advance for your kind and helpful responses.
Nezkrul 08-07-07, 03:42 PM	without special rules, you can never flank with a ranged weapon. That means you need to either go first in the first round of combat/surprise round to get SA damage with a ranged weapon, or snipe the target and hope he doesn't see you.
SilentOne 08-07-07, 03:46 PM	The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. It doesn't matter if the target is flanked, but whether or not the rogue is the one that's actually flanking the target. Chalk this up to the rogue knowing exactly how to exploit an intimate weakness that close that other characters wouldn't force, or whatever, but by RAW, the rogue needs to be flanking, not just attacking a flanked character.
tarkin 08-07-07, 03:55 PM	Flanking is something you DO, not something you have done to you. That is why it is called 'being flanked' instead of 'flanked'. This is different from 'prone' or 'shaken' or 'flatfooted' because all of those are things that are done to you, not something you do. It is kind of like locking someone in your missile sites, or being directly behind your enemey. The fact that I am directly behind you with my guns targetting you helps ME to hit you, it does not help anyone else to hit you, not even my wingman. The fact that you are being followed by me does not put you in a condition of being followed, instead it represents a RELATIONSHIP between you and me. It would take a very strange ability (read prestige class, not a feat) to let a third party benefit when due to the fact that I am doing something to you.
Khetan 08-07-07, 04:04 PM	Tarkin - In regards to the relationship, yes, flanking is something that one does, but it is also a state that one becomes; "flanked". And I've shown where that is described as a state of being. Nezkrul - The rogues ability to generate flanking w/ a ranged weapon was never in question. SilentOne - Thank you for providing quoted example for this. It really helps seperate rule from opinion, which is what we're seeking. I still think I saw something about thins in one of those nice printed WotC pictures w/ Iconic examples, and something about the range attack getting the same flanking bonus due to the melee units, blah blah blah, BUT, so far it does look as though the need is for the rogue to create the flanking for a RAW item. Thank you all for the responses and if you do find or remember something more, please share, even if not quoted, page numbers are good too.
tarkin 08-07-07, 07:08 PM	You are mostly arguing semantics. And doing it poorly. If I am flanked by you and your buddy, you get a bonus, I do not have ANY penalty on me. As such, it is not a state I am in, but instead an action you and your buddies are doing. You claimed otherwise by using a Rules of the Game article. Big mistake. Newbie mistake in fact. The Rules of the Game articles are known to be seriously flawed. They routinely contradict core things and routinely put out House Rules. Sometimes they say that is what they are doing, other times they don't bother to mention it. The fact that your Rules of the Game article is worded so as to imply that there is a state called flanked is laughable as evidence. Even if it outrighted wrote that a state called flanked exists, it would at best be something to think about, not to rely on. As is, you have proven nothing but that you rely on bad sources of information. Here is a list of real states that as per the core rules you can put your opponent in (from the SRD, a reliable source) http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm Here is the description of the ACTION called Flanking, again from the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking Flanking is something you do, not a state/condition you become. The fact that other people are flanking you does NOTHING to you, it just gives those specific people a bonus.