Rapid Reload and the Repeating Crossbow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rapid Reload and the Repeating Crossbow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bigbosshoss
03-07-07, 06:55 PM My group is having a pretty heated discussion on whether or not a character can use the rapid reload feat with the repeating crossbow to get his full compliment of shots off every round. Also in this discussion is the question of whether or not a repeating crossbow can fire every shot each round, if its on the highest base attack, or if each shot is on the next attack. IF this is so, then why does the repeating crossbow have 5 shots, when the most a character could have at normal base attacks is 4 shots around. I know this is like three questions, but I really need some help with the answers!
MourninStar
03-07-07, 07:38 PM Reloading a Repeating Crossbow is normally a Full Round Action that provokes an AoO. The Rapid Reload Feat changes that time, dependent on the crossbow involved.

A Heavy Crossbow takes a move action, and a Light Crossbow takes a free action. The Feat also says that if you're using a Light or Hand crossbow, you can take a Full Attack as you could with a bow.

So, if it's a Heavy Repeating Crossbow, then no. If it's a Light, then yes.

Taking a full attack with a Light crossbow isn't any more dangerous than taking one with a Shortbow (same damage die). And you can't make a crossbow composite.
jaelis
03-07-07, 08:42 PM I don't think that rapid reload applies to repeating crossbows. The feat says

Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy).

I would say that a heavy crossbow and a heavy repeating crossbow are not the same thing, and repeating crossbows are not on that list.

The use of repeating crossbows is that you get five shots off before you have to reload. A light repeating crossbow (with the EWP feat) is strictly inferior to a light crossbow with the Rapid Reload feat. A heavy repeating crossbow is generally better than a heavy crossbow with Rapid Reload, since you'll get more shots off per round on average. (Unless you only have one shot per round anyway.)
mato_hibiki
03-07-07, 11:16 PM I don't think rapid reload helps, since the repeating crossbows have a special reload time.

As for shots a turn. Time for an EXAMPLE!

If you have two attacks at say, six and one, and you use a repeating crossbow, you get two shots, one at six, one at one.

Next round, you full attack again, another two arrows down.

Third round, you get one attack at six, and click! Empty! You've still got a move action, so you take cover, because you're smart that way.

Fourth round is spent replacing the magazine on the crossbow.

Fifth round, you're ready to rock again.

I hope that answered your questions well enough. If not, just say so.
balard
03-08-07, 09:02 AM Cant you use Rapid SHot with the RC to shot 5 bolts in the same round?
mato_hibiki
03-08-07, 09:31 AM Provided you already have four attacks from BAB and such, yeah, sure you can.
jameswilliamogle
03-08-07, 09:49 AM I think a reasonable house rule that you might be able to get out of your DM is that although you have to reload it to get the full benefit, you still might be able to reload it w/ a single bolt at a time in the meantime and get rapid reload use out of it (you might need to have a custom item built for it, though).
mato_hibiki
03-08-07, 09:56 AM That's... I don't...

Could you rephrase that please? I'm not with you on that one.
jaelis
03-08-07, 11:02 AM He's suggesting a houserule where you could operate a repeating crossbow just like a normal crossbow if you wanted to. (Picture loading a single bolt straight into the bow, rather than drawing it from the cartridge.)

So if you have rapid reload and a full cartridge, you could shoot 5 bolts, then take a move action to load a single bolt. (Rather than a full round action to load a cartridge of 5.)
Moccanime
03-08-07, 02:57 PM If my memory serves me right then reloding a repeating croosbow is a fullround action (for both light and heavy). So is it for a heavy crossbow. Taking rapid reload with heavy crossbow reduce reload time to a move-action. So I would say the same applied to repeating crossbow.
tarkin
03-08-07, 04:37 PM 1. If it was legal, that would be logical.

But it is nto legal.

The repeating Crossbow is not a Heavy Crossbow, not a Light Crossbow, and not a Hand Crossbow.

Therefore it is not a legal selection for use with Rapid Reload.

2. Is it reasonable to let someone take a feat called Rapid Magazine Replacement, that lets you replace a Reapeating Crossbow's magazine in a move action instead of a Full Round Action?

Yes, definitely a reasonable home brew feat to create.
Moccanime
03-08-07, 04:43 PM Why make a new feat, when an excisting one can be used with a bit of tweaking?
I really don't see the difference between reloading a normal crossbow and a repeating crossbow. Sure one uses a single bolt while the other uses a magazin, but it is still reloading.
bigbosshoss
03-08-07, 06:15 PM 1. If it was legal, that would be logical.

But it is nto legal.

The repeating Crossbow is not a Heavy Crossbow, not a Light Crossbow, and not a Hand Crossbow.

Therefore it is not a legal selection for use with Rapid Reload.

2. Is it reasonable to let someone take a feat called Rapid Magazine Replacement, that lets you replace a Reapeating Crossbow's magazine in a move action instead of a Full Round Action?

Yes, definitely a reasonable home brew feat to create.

Why make a new feat, when an excisting one can be used with a bit of tweaking?
I really don't see the difference between reloading a normal crossbow and a repeating crossbow. Sure one uses a single bolt while the other uses a magazin, but it is still reloading.

Doesn't the idea of a rapidly reloaded crossbow though kind of make that a superpowered weapon? I'm looking to keep some kind of balance in my game without coming off to the player as a complete naysayer.
Moccanime
03-08-07, 06:39 PM Superpowered? Hardly.
Among the ranged exotic weapons out there, then the repaeting crossbow draw a bit of a short straw.
Good damage and range. But you can only fire five times before you need to spend an entire round reloading. If you let the player take rapid reload he would still need a move action to reload, so the round he reloads he can only attack once.

The Greatbow from Complete Warrior has just as good damage output and range and you never need to reload that. It can futhermore be mighty adding even more damage.

I also generally find ranged weapons lacking in the damage department when the higher levels comes. Melee fighters can often deal far more damage than a archer and both fighter and archer get highly outshined by any full caster.

Now this is of course only my oppinion, but in my games that usally holds true.
Druid_of_the_storm
03-08-07, 10:46 PM Personally I'd make a house rule or new feat or something to implement that into a game....after all..this is D&D....if Van Helsing can do it...so can I:P
mato_hibiki
03-09-07, 04:42 AM Just use the stupid quickloading enchantment from the arms and equipment guide then.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if you just look hard enough, you can find existing rules to make nearly any theme you're going for work.

You don't always have to create new things.
Moccanime
03-09-07, 09:36 AM ^ so true:)

Personally I'd make a house rule or new feat or something to implement that into a game....after all..this is D&D....if Van Helsing can do it...so can I:P

Speaking of Van Helsing, then I had some upgraded repeating crossbows (or repeaters as I like to call em) in a game I ran about 1½ year ago.
One of the upgrades was a magic enchantment that allowed autofire, combined with a larger clip and some feats for D20 modern, we got ourselves a nice weapon with several different uses.
The Commoner
03-09-07, 11:31 PM Quick question related to this topic.
Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the 2WF tree) with two Hand crossbows and the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats with a character that only has two arms... Legal?

I know a -4 penalty with each shot, but it seams like it would be very cool.
Frugal
03-10-07, 01:46 PM Quick question related to this topic.
Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the 2WF tree) with two Hand crossbows and the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats with a character that only has two arms... Legal?

I know a -4 penalty with each shot, but it seams like it would be very cool.

Cool, yes, work? Nope, you need both hands free to reload a hand crossbow. So you can't go all John Woo style with dual hand crossbows.

You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.

Emphasis mine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigbosshoss 03-07-07, 06:55 PM	My group is having a pretty heated discussion on whether or not a character can use the rapid reload feat with the repeating crossbow to get his full compliment of shots off every round. Also in this discussion is the question of whether or not a repeating crossbow can fire every shot each round, if its on the highest base attack, or if each shot is on the next attack. IF this is so, then why does the repeating crossbow have 5 shots, when the most a character could have at normal base attacks is 4 shots around. I know this is like three questions, but I really need some help with the answers!
MourninStar 03-07-07, 07:38 PM	Reloading a Repeating Crossbow is normally a Full Round Action that provokes an AoO. The Rapid Reload Feat changes that time, dependent on the crossbow involved. A Heavy Crossbow takes a move action, and a Light Crossbow takes a free action. The Feat also says that if you're using a Light or Hand crossbow, you can take a Full Attack as you could with a bow. So, if it's a Heavy Repeating Crossbow, then no. If it's a Light, then yes. Taking a full attack with a Light crossbow isn't any more dangerous than taking one with a Shortbow (same damage die). And you can't make a crossbow composite.
jaelis 03-07-07, 08:42 PM	I don't think that rapid reload applies to repeating crossbows. The feat says Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). I would say that a heavy crossbow and a heavy repeating crossbow are not the same thing, and repeating crossbows are not on that list. The use of repeating crossbows is that you get five shots off before you have to reload. A light repeating crossbow (with the EWP feat) is strictly inferior to a light crossbow with the Rapid Reload feat. A heavy repeating crossbow is generally better than a heavy crossbow with Rapid Reload, since you'll get more shots off per round on average. (Unless you only have one shot per round anyway.)
mato_hibiki 03-07-07, 11:16 PM	I don't think rapid reload helps, since the repeating crossbows have a special reload time. As for shots a turn. Time for an EXAMPLE! If you have two attacks at say, six and one, and you use a repeating crossbow, you get two shots, one at six, one at one. Next round, you full attack again, another two arrows down. Third round, you get one attack at six, and click! Empty! You've still got a move action, so you take cover, because you're smart that way. Fourth round is spent replacing the magazine on the crossbow. Fifth round, you're ready to rock again. I hope that answered your questions well enough. If not, just say so.
balard 03-08-07, 09:02 AM	Cant you use Rapid SHot with the RC to shot 5 bolts in the same round?
mato_hibiki 03-08-07, 09:31 AM	Provided you already have four attacks from BAB and such, yeah, sure you can.
jameswilliamogle 03-08-07, 09:49 AM	I think a reasonable house rule that you might be able to get out of your DM is that although you have to reload it to get the full benefit, you still might be able to reload it w/ a single bolt at a time in the meantime and get rapid reload use out of it (you might need to have a custom item built for it, though).
mato_hibiki 03-08-07, 09:56 AM	That's... I don't... Could you rephrase that please? I'm not with you on that one.
jaelis 03-08-07, 11:02 AM	He's suggesting a houserule where you could operate a repeating crossbow just like a normal crossbow if you wanted to. (Picture loading a single bolt straight into the bow, rather than drawing it from the cartridge.) So if you have rapid reload and a full cartridge, you could shoot 5 bolts, then take a move action to load a single bolt. (Rather than a full round action to load a cartridge of 5.)
Moccanime 03-08-07, 02:57 PM	If my memory serves me right then reloding a repeating croosbow is a fullround action (for both light and heavy). So is it for a heavy crossbow. Taking rapid reload with heavy crossbow reduce reload time to a move-action. So I would say the same applied to repeating crossbow.
tarkin 03-08-07, 04:37 PM	1. If it was legal, that would be logical. But it is nto legal. The repeating Crossbow is not a Heavy Crossbow, not a Light Crossbow, and not a Hand Crossbow. Therefore it is not a legal selection for use with Rapid Reload. 2. Is it reasonable to let someone take a feat called Rapid Magazine Replacement, that lets you replace a Reapeating Crossbow's magazine in a move action instead of a Full Round Action? Yes, definitely a reasonable home brew feat to create.
Moccanime 03-08-07, 04:43 PM	Why make a new feat, when an excisting one can be used with a bit of tweaking? I really don't see the difference between reloading a normal crossbow and a repeating crossbow. Sure one uses a single bolt while the other uses a magazin, but it is still reloading.
bigbosshoss 03-08-07, 06:15 PM	1. If it was legal, that would be logical. But it is nto legal. The repeating Crossbow is not a Heavy Crossbow, not a Light Crossbow, and not a Hand Crossbow. Therefore it is not a legal selection for use with Rapid Reload. 2. Is it reasonable to let someone take a feat called Rapid Magazine Replacement, that lets you replace a Reapeating Crossbow's magazine in a move action instead of a Full Round Action? Yes, definitely a reasonable home brew feat to create. Why make a new feat, when an excisting one can be used with a bit of tweaking? I really don't see the difference between reloading a normal crossbow and a repeating crossbow. Sure one uses a single bolt while the other uses a magazin, but it is still reloading. Doesn't the idea of a rapidly reloaded crossbow though kind of make that a superpowered weapon? I'm looking to keep some kind of balance in my game without coming off to the player as a complete naysayer.
Moccanime 03-08-07, 06:39 PM	Superpowered? Hardly. Among the ranged exotic weapons out there, then the repaeting crossbow draw a bit of a short straw. Good damage and range. But you can only fire five times before you need to spend an entire round reloading. If you let the player take rapid reload he would still need a move action to reload, so the round he reloads he can only attack once. The Greatbow from Complete Warrior has just as good damage output and range and you never need to reload that. It can futhermore be mighty adding even more damage. I also generally find ranged weapons lacking in the damage department when the higher levels comes. Melee fighters can often deal far more damage than a archer and both fighter and archer get highly outshined by any full caster. Now this is of course only my oppinion, but in my games that usally holds true.
Druid_of_the_storm 03-08-07, 10:46 PM	Personally I'd make a house rule or new feat or something to implement that into a game....after all..this is D&D....if Van Helsing can do it...so can I:P
mato_hibiki 03-09-07, 04:42 AM	Just use the stupid quickloading enchantment from the arms and equipment guide then. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if you just look hard enough, you can find existing rules to make nearly any theme you're going for work. You don't always have to create new things.
Moccanime 03-09-07, 09:36 AM	^ so true:) Personally I'd make a house rule or new feat or something to implement that into a game....after all..this is D&D....if Van Helsing can do it...so can I:P Speaking of Van Helsing, then I had some upgraded repeating crossbows (or repeaters as I like to call em) in a game I ran about 1½ year ago. One of the upgrades was a magic enchantment that allowed autofire, combined with a larger clip and some feats for D20 modern, we got ourselves a nice weapon with several different uses.
The Commoner 03-09-07, 11:31 PM	Quick question related to this topic. Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the 2WF tree) with two Hand crossbows and the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats with a character that only has two arms... Legal? I know a -4 penalty with each shot, but it seams like it would be very cool.
Frugal 03-10-07, 01:46 PM	Quick question related to this topic. Two Weapon Fighting (and the rest of the 2WF tree) with two Hand crossbows and the Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot feats with a character that only has two arms... Legal? I know a -4 penalty with each shot, but it seams like it would be very cool. Cool, yes, work? Nope, you need both hands free to reload a hand crossbow. So you can't go all John Woo style with dual hand crossbows. You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. Emphasis mine.