Rapid Shot for Warlock's Eldrich Blast? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rapid Shot for Warlock's Eldrich Blast? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Anti_Pseudonym
03-07-07, 01:25 AM Being new to the Warlock class, I am wondering, is it possible to use the Rapid Shot feat to enable a Warlock to use Eldrich Blast twice per round?

Point Blank Shot seems to be popular and highly undisputed in the legitimacy of its use to enhance Eldrich Blast. Seeing that Point Blank shot is a prerequisite for Rapid Shot, I ask if taking the next step in improving the Warlocks "ranged attack" is possible.

I searched for answers to this and didn't find any so if it has previously been discussed, apologies for the redundancy beforehand.
crimsonwolf
03-07-07, 01:35 AM no becuse you are not using multiple arrows... eldritch is a spell like ablity that takes a attack round to use .. unless you can cast two spells in one round....
Anti_Pseudonym
03-07-07, 02:18 AM But doesn't shooting an arrow also take a full round? Besides the feat doesn't say that the attack is limited to arrows. It keeps it general by describing the feat as applicable to ranged attacks.

RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
Punoqllads
03-07-07, 02:24 AM To use rapid shot you have to take a full attack action. Using eldritch blast is a standard action, not a full attack action, so you can't use rapid shot with it.
crimsonwolf
03-07-07, 02:30 AM can you cast multiple spells becuse of rapid shot??.. no??? eldritch is a spell just one you can use in differnt ways
Anti_Pseudonym
03-07-07, 02:54 AM Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the only way to do what I was hoping to accomplish with Rapid Shot is to use Quicken Spell Like Ability from Monsters Manual.

Thanks much for the input!

In terms of using feats to make Eldrich Blast stronger, the ones I've come across other than the Quicken, Maximize, and Empower SLA feats are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (ray), and Ability Focus (Eldrich Blast). Are there any others which I missed? I've looked at the Warlock's Handbook and there was little else there.
Punoqllads
03-07-07, 03:11 AM Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration help you get past spell resistance.
Anti_Pseudonym
03-07-07, 03:24 AM Naw, I skip that using Vitriolic Blast. If they're immune to acid I use Conjuration spell-attacks via wands since they're not subject to SR.
Black_Puffin
03-07-07, 04:23 PM supernatural transformation(eldritch blast) from savage species.

Your EB becomes a Supernatural ability. Still doesn't work in antimagic but SR no longer applies for any blast form.
jameswilliamogle
03-07-07, 04:34 PM It takes an epic feat to get two eldritch blasts, usually, or some extra-strength cheese (as in, get the Su ability of a Choker via Shapechange or Polymorph effects + Assume Supernatural Ability feat).
Anti_Pseudonym
03-07-07, 05:54 PM Doesn't Supernatural Transformation require that the ability you use it on is from your race and not your class. I think I read something about that in one of the forum topics a small while back. If not the case, then it's definitely worth the investment.

Regarding the Epic Feat which allows a Warlock to use Eldrich Blast twice, would you happen to know the name and which book it's from specifically as I have to show my DM physical info for feats or items I select.

Thanks for the cheeze, I'll give it a look but I'm certain it won't fly with the group. Besides, the campaign has been solid and fun with no one else doing cheeze yet. I simply foresee my Warlock possibly having issues keeping up with the rest of the group in terms of direct attack damage and ability in the near future. That's my motive for trying to take initiative in moving him towards a stronger position via feats.
Yadot
03-07-07, 06:04 PM The epic warlock feats were posted on the Wizard's website.

EDIT: Here it is, Epic Insights (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a)
Witch
03-07-07, 06:11 PM And they still fail at keeping the warlock at a decent power level.
Quixon
03-07-07, 07:37 PM supernatural transformation(eldritch blast) from savage species.

Your EB becomes a Supernatural ability. Still doesn't work in antimagic but SR no longer applies for any blast form.

Doesn't qualify per Rick baker in the Warlock FAQ thread. They (WotC) say the Eldritch blast is a class feature and that feat only qualifies for something you get from your race, or some such explanation. Either way didn't qualify.
Anti_Pseudonym
03-12-07, 02:43 AM To use rapid shot you have to take a full attack action. Using eldritch blast is a standard action, not a full attack action, so you can't use rapid shot with it.

From what I understand, taking a full-attack action allows you to simply attack and only move 5 feet. Taking a standard action, on the other hand, lets you do something and still have your full movement. This would imply that taking a standard action takes less time than taking a full-attack action.

Therefore, couldn't I opt to make any standard action a full-attack action simply to be able to use Rapid Shot to enhance a range-attack move that uses a standard action?

It seems like it should work logically.
Tsuul
03-12-07, 03:12 AM Full attack action is only for things like attacking with weapons. spinning spells is much more difficult then spinning halberds. And there are spells that take a full round or longer to cast.
Anti_Pseudonym
03-12-07, 03:21 AM Eldrich Blast takes a standard action and although it's a spell-like ability, its also a ranged attack weapon in the form of a ray.

Thanks much for your input, but the question I asked from right before this post still stands. Can anyone give some more insight?
Jerks
03-12-07, 02:35 PM The problem is the difference between a standard action and an attack action.

Weapon attacks and many maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc.) are attack actions. These take an attack action. On your turn, you can make a single attack action as a standard action once per round, or take multiple attack actions as a full-round action. Attack actions can also be taken as part of attacks of opportunity or as part of a myriad number of feats.

Casting spells, activating command word magic items, and using spell-like abilities (such as eldritch blasts) are standard actions. You can only take one standard action in a round.

Precise Shot allows you to take an additional ranged attack whenever you take a full-round action to attack. It adds another attack action, it cannot add another standard action (which is what you would need to make another eldritch blast).
Anti_Pseudonym
03-12-07, 03:20 PM The problem is the difference between a standard action and an attack action.

Weapon attacks and many maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc.) are attack actions. These take an attack action. On your turn, you can make a single attack action as a standard action once per round, or take multiple attack actions as a full-round action.

I do appreciate the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Based on what was said in the quote above, it is possible to change an attack action into a standard action by limiting the number of attacks made. But I'm interested in knowing if the inverse is true.

In other words, can I choose to change an action that is typically defined as being a standard action into an attack action simply to take advantage of the Rapid Shot feat?

I'd think standard actions take less time and commitment (seeing as how you can take your full move action afterwards) than attack actions. So why not give your all to the standard action, forsake the move action that you'd be entitled to afterwards, and use the Rapid Shot feat to make another ranged attack?
WinterPsionic
03-12-07, 03:35 PM Last time I looked an attack action is a sub category of a standard action. In any given phase your given 1 move action and 1 standard action. You can give up the standard to make a second move or you can give up the move to make a full attack. You cannot give up the move to make a 2nd standard.

The only way to get off more then 1 EB in any given round is the Quicken SLA or the Epic Feat.

Rapid Shot, and all the other "Attack granting" shot feats were specifically designed to be used with weapons, not SLAs.

Also what level is your group? At level 13 I'm doing a pretty good job of keeping up with most the party's damage, only one's consistently out damaging me are the Sorcerous and the Wizard.(And I've taken 2 levels that don't do a thing for my EB)
Anti_Pseudonym
03-12-07, 04:50 PM Thanks for the clarification, I'll try to look that up asap.

Out of curiosity, I'm guessing it's also the case that I can't use a standard action (say Eldrich Blast), and then make a single ranged attack (with say a bow,crossbow, sling) in the same round. Is this correct?

Regarding the group, this campaign is somewhat open-ended in the sense that people can hop in and out whenever they have the chance to roleplay. This actually fits perfectly into the campaign that my DM is running. The characters' level ranges are anywhere between 10-15, but the core group (those who currently consistently play every week) are between levels 10-12. Characters start off at level 10.

My character is a Warlock 5/Enlightened Spirit 5 and I need only a few hundred more XP before I can advance in level. I'm regretting not choosing to role up a Warlock 10. The flavor of my character is working out beautifully and it seems like I'm getting a good deal of XP for roleplaying this character concept. But in terms of dishing out damage to contribute to group survival, 5d6 per round (no item enhancements factored in) with a smattering of useful abilities simply doesn't seem like it can hold its own if push came to shove.
WinterPsionic
03-12-07, 06:00 PM Out of curiosity, I'm guessing it's also the case that I can't use a standard action (say Eldrich Blast), and then make a single ranged attack (with say a bow,crossbow, sling) in the same round. Is this correct?

This is correct, for all intensive purposes, if you choose to use EB you should consider it the end of your turn.

My character is a Warlock 5/Enlightened Spirit 5 and I need only a few hundred more XP before I can advance in level.

Yeah, I'd have to say you split off a little to early, I am also taking level in Enlightend Spirit but I'm mixing them in gradually, I think I currently stand at Warlock 7/Enlighted 3/Planeshifter 2, and even with the blows to my EB damage I'm doing ok, I took several knowedlge skills so I can make the checks to have a general idea of what to use against what to maximize weakness and avoid immunities. I'm also the crazy guy that goes to play with the funny things, can't see in a room? Sure I'll pull out my eye, wanna fiddle with the strange most likely trapped chest, ok here's goes my hand, etc.
Jerks
03-12-07, 06:08 PM I do appreciate the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Based on what was said in the quote above, it is possible to change an attack action into a standard action by limiting the number of attacks made. But I'm interested in knowing if the inverse is true.

In other words, can I choose to change an action that is typically defined as being a standard action into an attack action simply to take advantage of the Rapid Shot feat?

I'd think standard actions take less time and commitment (seeing as how you can take your full move action afterwards) than attack actions. So why not give your all to the standard action, forsake the move action that you'd be entitled to afterwards, and use the Rapid Shot feat to make another ranged attack?

No you can't take a standard action as "only" an attack action. You only get one standard action in a round. The easiest way to affect multiple opponents is the eldritch blast shape invocations. Of course since you only have 5 true levels of warlock you might have to go back and dip into the Warlock class again to pick one up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anti_Pseudonym 03-07-07, 01:25 AM	Being new to the Warlock class, I am wondering, is it possible to use the Rapid Shot feat to enable a Warlock to use Eldrich Blast twice per round? Point Blank Shot seems to be popular and highly undisputed in the legitimacy of its use to enhance Eldrich Blast. Seeing that Point Blank shot is a prerequisite for Rapid Shot, I ask if taking the next step in improving the Warlocks "ranged attack" is possible. I searched for answers to this and didn't find any so if it has previously been discussed, apologies for the redundancy beforehand.
crimsonwolf 03-07-07, 01:35 AM	no becuse you are not using multiple arrows... eldritch is a spell like ablity that takes a attack round to use .. unless you can cast two spells in one round....
Anti_Pseudonym 03-07-07, 02:18 AM	But doesn't shooting an arrow also take a full round? Besides the feat doesn't say that the attack is limited to arrows. It keeps it general by describing the feat as applicable to ranged attacks. RAPID SHOT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot. Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
Punoqllads 03-07-07, 02:24 AM	To use rapid shot you have to take a full attack action. Using eldritch blast is a standard action, not a full attack action, so you can't use rapid shot with it.
crimsonwolf 03-07-07, 02:30 AM	can you cast multiple spells becuse of rapid shot??.. no??? eldritch is a spell just one you can use in differnt ways
Anti_Pseudonym 03-07-07, 02:54 AM	Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the only way to do what I was hoping to accomplish with Rapid Shot is to use Quicken Spell Like Ability from Monsters Manual. Thanks much for the input! In terms of using feats to make Eldrich Blast stronger, the ones I've come across other than the Quicken, Maximize, and Empower SLA feats are Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (ray), and Ability Focus (Eldrich Blast). Are there any others which I missed? I've looked at the Warlock's Handbook and there was little else there.
Punoqllads 03-07-07, 03:11 AM	Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration help you get past spell resistance.
Anti_Pseudonym 03-07-07, 03:24 AM	Naw, I skip that using Vitriolic Blast. If they're immune to acid I use Conjuration spell-attacks via wands since they're not subject to SR.
Black_Puffin 03-07-07, 04:23 PM	supernatural transformation(eldritch blast) from savage species. Your EB becomes a Supernatural ability. Still doesn't work in antimagic but SR no longer applies for any blast form.
jameswilliamogle 03-07-07, 04:34 PM	It takes an epic feat to get two eldritch blasts, usually, or some extra-strength cheese (as in, get the Su ability of a Choker via Shapechange or Polymorph effects + Assume Supernatural Ability feat).
Anti_Pseudonym 03-07-07, 05:54 PM	Doesn't Supernatural Transformation require that the ability you use it on is from your race and not your class. I think I read something about that in one of the forum topics a small while back. If not the case, then it's definitely worth the investment. Regarding the Epic Feat which allows a Warlock to use Eldrich Blast twice, would you happen to know the name and which book it's from specifically as I have to show my DM physical info for feats or items I select. Thanks for the cheeze, I'll give it a look but I'm certain it won't fly with the group. Besides, the campaign has been solid and fun with no one else doing cheeze yet. I simply foresee my Warlock possibly having issues keeping up with the rest of the group in terms of direct attack damage and ability in the near future. That's my motive for trying to take initiative in moving him towards a stronger position via feats.
Yadot 03-07-07, 06:04 PM	The epic warlock feats were posted on the Wizard's website. EDIT: Here it is, Epic Insights (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a)
Witch 03-07-07, 06:11 PM	And they still fail at keeping the warlock at a decent power level.
Quixon 03-07-07, 07:37 PM	supernatural transformation(eldritch blast) from savage species. Your EB becomes a Supernatural ability. Still doesn't work in antimagic but SR no longer applies for any blast form. Doesn't qualify per Rick baker in the Warlock FAQ thread. They (WotC) say the Eldritch blast is a class feature and that feat only qualifies for something you get from your race, or some such explanation. Either way didn't qualify.
Anti_Pseudonym 03-12-07, 02:43 AM	To use rapid shot you have to take a full attack action. Using eldritch blast is a standard action, not a full attack action, so you can't use rapid shot with it. From what I understand, taking a full-attack action allows you to simply attack and only move 5 feet. Taking a standard action, on the other hand, lets you do something and still have your full movement. This would imply that taking a standard action takes less time than taking a full-attack action. Therefore, couldn't I opt to make any standard action a full-attack action simply to be able to use Rapid Shot to enhance a range-attack move that uses a standard action? It seems like it should work logically.
Tsuul 03-12-07, 03:12 AM	Full attack action is only for things like attacking with weapons. spinning spells is much more difficult then spinning halberds. And there are spells that take a full round or longer to cast.
Anti_Pseudonym 03-12-07, 03:21 AM	Eldrich Blast takes a standard action and although it's a spell-like ability, its also a ranged attack weapon in the form of a ray. Thanks much for your input, but the question I asked from right before this post still stands. Can anyone give some more insight?
Jerks 03-12-07, 02:35 PM	The problem is the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Weapon attacks and many maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc.) are attack actions. These take an attack action. On your turn, you can make a single attack action as a standard action once per round, or take multiple attack actions as a full-round action. Attack actions can also be taken as part of attacks of opportunity or as part of a myriad number of feats. Casting spells, activating command word magic items, and using spell-like abilities (such as eldritch blasts) are standard actions. You can only take one standard action in a round. Precise Shot allows you to take an additional ranged attack whenever you take a full-round action to attack. It adds another attack action, it cannot add another standard action (which is what you would need to make another eldritch blast).
Anti_Pseudonym 03-12-07, 03:20 PM	The problem is the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Weapon attacks and many maneuvers (disarm, grapple, etc.) are attack actions. These take an attack action. On your turn, you can make a single attack action as a standard action once per round, or take multiple attack actions as a full-round action. I do appreciate the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Based on what was said in the quote above, it is possible to change an attack action into a standard action by limiting the number of attacks made. But I'm interested in knowing if the inverse is true. In other words, can I choose to change an action that is typically defined as being a standard action into an attack action simply to take advantage of the Rapid Shot feat? I'd think standard actions take less time and commitment (seeing as how you can take your full move action afterwards) than attack actions. So why not give your all to the standard action, forsake the move action that you'd be entitled to afterwards, and use the Rapid Shot feat to make another ranged attack?
WinterPsionic 03-12-07, 03:35 PM	Last time I looked an attack action is a sub category of a standard action. In any given phase your given 1 move action and 1 standard action. You can give up the standard to make a second move or you can give up the move to make a full attack. You cannot give up the move to make a 2nd standard. The only way to get off more then 1 EB in any given round is the Quicken SLA or the Epic Feat. Rapid Shot, and all the other "Attack granting" shot feats were specifically designed to be used with weapons, not SLAs. Also what level is your group? At level 13 I'm doing a pretty good job of keeping up with most the party's damage, only one's consistently out damaging me are the Sorcerous and the Wizard.(And I've taken 2 levels that don't do a thing for my EB)
Anti_Pseudonym 03-12-07, 04:50 PM	Thanks for the clarification, I'll try to look that up asap. Out of curiosity, I'm guessing it's also the case that I can't use a standard action (say Eldrich Blast), and then make a single ranged attack (with say a bow,crossbow, sling) in the same round. Is this correct? Regarding the group, this campaign is somewhat open-ended in the sense that people can hop in and out whenever they have the chance to roleplay. This actually fits perfectly into the campaign that my DM is running. The characters' level ranges are anywhere between 10-15, but the core group (those who currently consistently play every week) are between levels 10-12. Characters start off at level 10. My character is a Warlock 5/Enlightened Spirit 5 and I need only a few hundred more XP before I can advance in level. I'm regretting not choosing to role up a Warlock 10. The flavor of my character is working out beautifully and it seems like I'm getting a good deal of XP for roleplaying this character concept. But in terms of dishing out damage to contribute to group survival, 5d6 per round (no item enhancements factored in) with a smattering of useful abilities simply doesn't seem like it can hold its own if push came to shove.
WinterPsionic 03-12-07, 06:00 PM	Out of curiosity, I'm guessing it's also the case that I can't use a standard action (say Eldrich Blast), and then make a single ranged attack (with say a bow,crossbow, sling) in the same round. Is this correct? This is correct, for all intensive purposes, if you choose to use EB you should consider it the end of your turn. My character is a Warlock 5/Enlightened Spirit 5 and I need only a few hundred more XP before I can advance in level. Yeah, I'd have to say you split off a little to early, I am also taking level in Enlightend Spirit but I'm mixing them in gradually, I think I currently stand at Warlock 7/Enlighted 3/Planeshifter 2, and even with the blows to my EB damage I'm doing ok, I took several knowedlge skills so I can make the checks to have a general idea of what to use against what to maximize weakness and avoid immunities. I'm also the crazy guy that goes to play with the funny things, can't see in a room? Sure I'll pull out my eye, wanna fiddle with the strange most likely trapped chest, ok here's goes my hand, etc.
Jerks 03-12-07, 06:08 PM	I do appreciate the difference between a standard action and an attack action. Based on what was said in the quote above, it is possible to change an attack action into a standard action by limiting the number of attacks made. But I'm interested in knowing if the inverse is true. In other words, can I choose to change an action that is typically defined as being a standard action into an attack action simply to take advantage of the Rapid Shot feat? I'd think standard actions take less time and commitment (seeing as how you can take your full move action afterwards) than attack actions. So why not give your all to the standard action, forsake the move action that you'd be entitled to afterwards, and use the Rapid Shot feat to make another ranged attack? No you can't take a standard action as "only" an attack action. You only get one standard action in a round. The easiest way to affect multiple opponents is the eldritch blast shape invocations. Of course since you only have 5 true levels of warlock you might have to go back and dip into the Warlock class again to pick one up.