Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mcgeedis 10-07-07, 10:21 AM	f I were to have the Rapid Spell feat (metamagic feat that decreases the casting time for spells at +1 spell level adjustment, so a Full Round casting time = 1 Standard Action), and say I wanted to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally II as a 3rd level spell as a standard action. Can I do that without memorizing it ahead of time? Or do I have to have a 2nd level spell already memorized as a 3rd level Rapid Spell and sacrifice that one to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally II? The PHB references that you can use metamagic for spontaneous spells, but they take a full round action to cast. So does Rapid Spell overturn this by the feat's nature?
Gnarl 10-07-07, 11:56 AM	This is how I would rule it: rapid spell reduces the casting time of the spell from 1 round to 1 standard action, and since you’re casting the spell spontaneously, the 1 standard action turns into a full round action. Be careful not to mistake 1 round casting and 1 full round, they’re not the same at all.
Someone 10-07-07, 01:30 PM	I agree with Gnarl, that it would end up taking a full round action (unless I'm getting Rapid Spell wrong). On the upside, a full round action is still quicker than a 1 round casting time.
mcgeedis 10-07-07, 03:26 PM	I agree with Gnarl, that it would end up taking a full round action (unless I'm getting Rapid Spell wrong). On the upside, a full round action is still quicker than a 1 round casting time. Summon Nature's Ally casting time is 1 round. Rapid Spell says: "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action". The PHB says: "A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action". What am I missing? Does Rapid Spell just not work with spontaneous summoning?
Killydd 10-07-07, 07:11 PM	As gnarl thought, you are missing the difference between 1 round casting and full round casting. The spell would normally take one full round, so you start casting on your action, keep casting all the way through initiative order, and finish just before your initiative, allowing anyone during that time to attack you and disrupt your spell. Spontaneous spells always take extra time when you apply metamagic to them, with the standard action spell increasing to a full-round action. The full round action here means that it takes up the standard and move action slots, but you still finish casting on your own initiative, so other people can't disrupt you unless they have a readied action or an attack of opportunity during your initiative. In other words, timewise standard<full-round<one round the metamagic reduces it down to standard the fact that it is spontaneous raises it back up to full-round
strenoth 10-08-07, 01:38 AM	As gnarl thought, you are missing the difference between 1 round casting and full round casting. The spell would normally take one full round, so you start casting on your action, keep casting all the way through initiative order, and finish just before your initiative, allowing anyone during that time to attack you and disrupt your spell. Spontaneous spells always take extra time when you apply metamagic to them, with the standard action spell increasing to a full-round action. The full round action here means that it takes up the standard and move action slots, but you still finish casting on your own initiative, so other people can't disrupt you unless they have a readied action or an attack of opportunity during your initiative. In other words, timewise standard<full-round<one round the metamagic reduces it down to standard the fact that it is spontaneous raises it back up to full-round Incorrect. At least as of 3.5, you finish casting the spell at the end of your turn, but it comes into effect at the beginning of your next turn. this is part of the definition of a one-round casting time If you reduce the casting time to a standard action, it comes into effect at the end of that action. For a summon spell, this means your summoned creatures act one full round sooner. This is a good thing.
Killydd 10-08-07, 03:26 AM	A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell. I suppose that means technically you do finish casting it on your turn, but it can still be interrupted until the beginning of your next turn, since you must continue concentrating on it. I really can't see how this is any different than just saying you are still casting it through the entire round, since I'd rule taking any significant other action(such as an AoO) would also cause you to lose concentration on it.
strenoth 10-08-07, 03:50 AM	perhaps, but beside the point here. either way, 1-round casting time = full round action. Rapid spell reduces this to a standard action. Which means it takes effect on this turn, and you don't need to maintain concentration anyway.
BW0222 10-08-07, 07:35 AM	Folks, Fortunately, this specific case is easily solved. Complete Devine includes the text, "This feat can be appled to a spell cast spontaneously as long as its original casting time was longer than 1 full round."
Treantmonklvl20 10-09-07, 01:45 PM	Folks, Fortunately, this specific case is easily solved. Complete Devine includes the text, "This feat can be appled to a spell cast spontaneously as long as its original casting time was longer than 1 full round." SNA's original casting time is 1 round, so this doesn't apply. If you are dragonblooded you can take Accelerate Metamagic to be able to apply Rapid Spell to summoning.