rapidstrike and improved rapid strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

rapidstrike and improved rapid strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dallen
03-01-08, 12:03 AM Ok I need help figuring out how this works.
I am using the psi-warrior claw build

str before expansion: 29 +9
BAB: 17 for a total of 26
Weapon Focus Claw: +1 = 27 bab
Gloves +5 = 32bab

Grand Total for BAB = 32
Feats: Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstike

1st: Do these stack or is it one or the other?
2nd: With Improved Rapidstrike it can be read 1 of 2 ways: first all attacks at -5 second way is 1st attack at -5 2nd attack at -10 etc. I am going with the first.

so I am looking at

+22+22+17+17+17 (x2 since there are 2 claws) (this is with the -5)

first attack is the claw followed by rapid strike then 3 attacks from improved rapid strike or would it be

claw 1 +22 claw 2 +22 rapidstrike +22 then improved rapidstrike +17 (x3 attack)

Also how does damage scale
Claws of the beast at 19pp = 5d6 at med or 6d6 at large, what about huge?
What about with improved natural attack into huge
Followed by Morphic Body, this increase it another step

This is the base, is this correct
5d6 base for medium-size claws <-- claws of the beast
6d6 improved natural attack
8d6 expansion 1 <-- large size
12d6 expansion 2 <-- huge size
16d6 morphic weapons (warshaper ability, increase size by 1) <-- gargantuan size?

What if I metamorphed into something bigger? like a colossal monster.
Dallen
03-02-08, 02:58 AM wow 50 views and no one can tell me.
dman11235
03-02-08, 01:40 PM The way I read it is that Rapid strike gives you one extra attack, and Imp Rapid Strike gives you another. I am going off of memory, but this is what I remember. It's kind of like TWF, only for natural attacks.

As for the damage: check the DMG. It should give you an idea of where it's going. I believe that you are right. However, you'd go to large then huge THEN the warshaper (which is technically gargantuan since it's an actual increase in size) THEN INA, since INA is the only virtual size increase. And you couldn't increase damage any more, since you are doing colossal damage. If you were to do things that plain increased the dice size (and not your effective size) you could increase damage more.
taragol
03-11-08, 11:56 PM In which book can I find rapid strike and improved rapid strike?
Crimson_Concerto
03-12-08, 12:21 AM taragol, the feats in question are in Draconomicon.

dman11235, Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike are actually very different from TWF.

All that being said, I don't currently have access to my Draconomicon, but I note one very important flaw in your build: You don't have a BAB of +32. You have one of +17, apparently, so I have to ask: Is this an epic game starting at level 23 or 24? Because the Psychic Warrior and War Shaper only each have medium BAB, so you only have +15 by level 20... Or are you multi-classing into something else you're not telling us about?

Actually, never mind, I just realized I do have access the Draconomicon. One sec...

Okay, your interpretation of Improved Rapid Strike is completely off. It's not just -5 for every attack after your default ones, and it only applies to one claw of the pair. It quite specifically states, "...extra attacks with one of those weapons, the first at a -5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional -5..." This means that your attacks are as follows:
Claw 1 / Claw 2 / Either claw at -5/ The same claw at -10/ The same claw at -10/ The same claw at -10.

Also, I'd just like to make sure you know that to qualify for the feats you have to be an aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant. If you don't want to suffer a Level Adjustment, the Elan is likely your best option.

As for your damage scaling problem... Well the first issue is that your basic, mediums-sized claws won't do 5D6 damage. Unless you're level 24, as I hypothesized above, such that you can actually have Psychic Warrior 19 / Warshaper 5 and thus have the 19 ML needed to spend 19 PP on the power. After that, I don't know how to help you with your sizing problem. If there aren't tables telling you what to do past a certain point, I'd just assume you can't go any higher.
mplindustries
03-12-08, 02:22 AM Upon reading the feats again, I think my understanding of them has changed.

Rapidstrike gives you a single extra attack at -5.

Improved rapidstrike gives at least two extra attacks, but only with a single weapon at -5 and then -10. It, however, seems to imply you can take more than two extra attacks (since it mentions up to four). There appears to be no rules regarding how to decide how or why you get them, and it also says nothing about the additional -5 being cumulative.

So, lets assume just the baseline without regards to the phantom 3rd and 4th attack.

I can't follow your post at all, so I'll just make my own example for show.

Lets say you have two claw attacks. Claw 1 has an attack bonus of X, Claw 2 has an attack bonus of Y. For the sake of argument, lets say Claw 1 is slightly better because it somehow has an enhancement Claw 2 does not have.

Normally, you'd have:
+X/+Y

With Rapidstrike, you'd have:
+X/+Y/+(X-5)

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike appear to work together. Though their wording is mutually exclusive if their benefit were to be applied to one particular claw, nothing stops you from applying them to different claws each time. Thus, you'd get:
+X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10)

Now, theoretically, you can get more than two extra attacks from Improved Rapidstrike. I have no idea why, or how to calculate when you can and can't take them, but it would like this:
+X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10)/+(X-10)/+(X-10)

Now, most likely, it was intended to provide additional iterative attacks for that claw, so its probably supposed to be:
+X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10)/+(X-15)/+(X-20)

The most troubling part to me, though, is that it does not say what kind of action it takes to get the extra attacks. You'd have to rely on what makes sense and I believe there is a phrase floating around the srd about requiring a full attack action to get multiple attacks...

All in all, its a pretty horridly worded pair of feats that I love nonetheless. Personally, I've always just assumed they allowed iterative attacks for both claws. I never read it close enough to realize it was just for one of the pair.

Crimson_Concerto: I'm not inclined to think he actually did this, but if he was a Psychic Warrior 15/Warshaper 5 with Practiced Manifester, he could have the 19 Manifester Level. Of course, this leaves a lot of problems regarding the fact that he can't even qualify for Warshaper with just Psychic Warrior in any way that I'm aware. He did mention he was using a "psi-warrior claw build," though, so maybe there is a commonly available way to do it that I just don't see...
WolfHati
03-12-08, 02:34 AM I'm pretty sure the intent is for those feats to give you a normal attack progression with one of your natural weapons, instead of the single attack only rule.

So with Imp. Rapid strike, you would wield one of your primary natural weapons like someone would wield a sword, attacking at +12/+7/+2 instead of just +12. Normal rapid strike limits this to only a second attack, so even if you would attack with a melee weapon at +20/+15/+10/+5, you would only get +20/+15 with your natural weapons unless you had improved rapid strike also.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dallen 03-01-08, 12:03 AM	Ok I need help figuring out how this works. I am using the psi-warrior claw build str before expansion: 29 +9 BAB: 17 for a total of 26 Weapon Focus Claw: +1 = 27 bab Gloves +5 = 32bab Grand Total for BAB = 32 Feats: Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstike 1st: Do these stack or is it one or the other? 2nd: With Improved Rapidstrike it can be read 1 of 2 ways: first all attacks at -5 second way is 1st attack at -5 2nd attack at -10 etc. I am going with the first. so I am looking at +22+22+17+17+17 (x2 since there are 2 claws) (this is with the -5) first attack is the claw followed by rapid strike then 3 attacks from improved rapid strike or would it be claw 1 +22 claw 2 +22 rapidstrike +22 then improved rapidstrike +17 (x3 attack) Also how does damage scale Claws of the beast at 19pp = 5d6 at med or 6d6 at large, what about huge? What about with improved natural attack into huge Followed by Morphic Body, this increase it another step This is the base, is this correct 5d6 base for medium-size claws <-- claws of the beast 6d6 improved natural attack 8d6 expansion 1 <-- large size 12d6 expansion 2 <-- huge size 16d6 morphic weapons (warshaper ability, increase size by 1) <-- gargantuan size? What if I metamorphed into something bigger? like a colossal monster.
Dallen 03-02-08, 02:58 AM	wow 50 views and no one can tell me.
dman11235 03-02-08, 01:40 PM	The way I read it is that Rapid strike gives you one extra attack, and Imp Rapid Strike gives you another. I am going off of memory, but this is what I remember. It's kind of like TWF, only for natural attacks. As for the damage: check the DMG. It should give you an idea of where it's going. I believe that you are right. However, you'd go to large then huge THEN the warshaper (which is technically gargantuan since it's an actual increase in size) THEN INA, since INA is the only virtual size increase. And you couldn't increase damage any more, since you are doing colossal damage. If you were to do things that plain increased the dice size (and not your effective size) you could increase damage more.
taragol 03-11-08, 11:56 PM	In which book can I find rapid strike and improved rapid strike?
Crimson_Concerto 03-12-08, 12:21 AM	taragol, the feats in question are in Draconomicon. dman11235, Rapid Strike and Improved Rapid Strike are actually very different from TWF. All that being said, I don't currently have access to my Draconomicon, but I note one very important flaw in your build: You don't have a BAB of +32. You have one of +17, apparently, so I have to ask: Is this an epic game starting at level 23 or 24? Because the Psychic Warrior and War Shaper only each have medium BAB, so you only have +15 by level 20... Or are you multi-classing into something else you're not telling us about? Actually, never mind, I just realized I do have access the Draconomicon. One sec... Okay, your interpretation of Improved Rapid Strike is completely off. It's not just -5 for every attack after your default ones, and it only applies to one claw of the pair. It quite specifically states, "...extra attacks with one of those weapons, the first at a -5 penalty and the second and subsequent attacks at an additional -5..." This means that your attacks are as follows: Claw 1 / Claw 2 / Either claw at -5/ The same claw at -10/ The same claw at -10/ The same claw at -10. Also, I'd just like to make sure you know that to qualify for the feats you have to be an aberration, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant. If you don't want to suffer a Level Adjustment, the Elan is likely your best option. As for your damage scaling problem... Well the first issue is that your basic, mediums-sized claws won't do 5D6 damage. Unless you're level 24, as I hypothesized above, such that you can actually have Psychic Warrior 19 / Warshaper 5 and thus have the 19 ML needed to spend 19 PP on the power. After that, I don't know how to help you with your sizing problem. If there aren't tables telling you what to do past a certain point, I'd just assume you can't go any higher.
mplindustries 03-12-08, 02:22 AM	Upon reading the feats again, I think my understanding of them has changed. Rapidstrike gives you a single extra attack at -5. Improved rapidstrike gives at least two extra attacks, but only with a single weapon at -5 and then -10. It, however, seems to imply you can take more than two extra attacks (since it mentions up to four). There appears to be no rules regarding how to decide how or why you get them, and it also says nothing about the additional -5 being cumulative. So, lets assume just the baseline without regards to the phantom 3rd and 4th attack. I can't follow your post at all, so I'll just make my own example for show. Lets say you have two claw attacks. Claw 1 has an attack bonus of X, Claw 2 has an attack bonus of Y. For the sake of argument, lets say Claw 1 is slightly better because it somehow has an enhancement Claw 2 does not have. Normally, you'd have: +X/+Y With Rapidstrike, you'd have: +X/+Y/+(X-5) Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike appear to work together. Though their wording is mutually exclusive if their benefit were to be applied to one particular claw, nothing stops you from applying them to different claws each time. Thus, you'd get: +X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10) Now, theoretically, you can get more than two extra attacks from Improved Rapidstrike. I have no idea why, or how to calculate when you can and can't take them, but it would like this: +X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10)/+(X-10)/+(X-10) Now, most likely, it was intended to provide additional iterative attacks for that claw, so its probably supposed to be: +X/+Y/+(X-5)/+(Y-5)/+(X-10)/+(X-15)/+(X-20) The most troubling part to me, though, is that it does not say what kind of action it takes to get the extra attacks. You'd have to rely on what makes sense and I believe there is a phrase floating around the srd about requiring a full attack action to get multiple attacks... All in all, its a pretty horridly worded pair of feats that I love nonetheless. Personally, I've always just assumed they allowed iterative attacks for both claws. I never read it close enough to realize it was just for one of the pair. Crimson_Concerto: I'm not inclined to think he actually did this, but if he was a Psychic Warrior 15/Warshaper 5 with Practiced Manifester, he could have the 19 Manifester Level. Of course, this leaves a lot of problems regarding the fact that he can't even qualify for Warshaper with just Psychic Warrior in any way that I'm aware. He did mention he was using a "psi-warrior claw build," though, so maybe there is a commonly available way to do it that I just don't see...
WolfHati 03-12-08, 02:34 AM	I'm pretty sure the intent is for those feats to give you a normal attack progression with one of your natural weapons, instead of the single attack only rule. So with Imp. Rapid strike, you would wield one of your primary natural weapons like someone would wield a sword, attacking at +12/+7/+2 instead of just +12. Normal rapid strike limits this to only a second attack, so even if you would attack with a melee weapon at +20/+15/+10/+5, you would only get +20/+15 with your natural weapons unless you had improved rapid strike also.