re: Skills and multiclassing? what skills are cross class and what are not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

re: Skills and multiclassing? what skills are cross class and what are not? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElyasRavenwood
10-15-07, 08:38 PM I have a quick question.
I have a 1-lvl rogue 3rd lvl swashbuckler. I have just gotten enough experience to level him up. I plan to take another level of rouge to make the character a 2nd lvl rouge 3rd level swashbuckler. The level progression thus far has been 1st level 1 rogue, 2nd level 1 swashbuckler, 3rd level 2 swashbuckler, 4th level 3 swashbuckler.

What are the rules regarding multiclassing and class skills? Thus far I have assumed that my characters class skills include every skill on the rogue list and the swashbuckler list. When I have leveled up I have spent my skill points with the assumption that at each level the rogue skills have been part of my class skill list.

My friend has a similar character with 1 level of ranger and 3 levels of rogue. He wanted to increase his survival skill ranks so he took a second level of ranger at 5th level. I pointed out that if he leveled up as a rogue, the survival skill would be a class skill for him because of the multi classing rules. He thought I was incorrect. He thinks that the skill list of the class you take at the current level dictates what skills are class skills and cross class skills.

I think that the only skills that would be cross class are those skills, which do not appear on any of your classes’ skill lists.

Which of us is right?

Any help would be appreciated. IF I am wrong this means I have to completely dismantle my skills and re do my skills rank-by-rank, and level-by-level.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

His character is focusing on the traditional thief skills, I.e. sleight of hand, disable trap, open lock, tumble, move silently, Hide, Bluff etc.

There is some overlap, but my character has focused on the following skills: Appraise, balance, bluff, climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, sense motive, spot, tumble. (He is human with 16 intelligence)

Any help would be appreciated, thanks
Tempest Stormwind
10-15-07, 08:53 PM If it's a class skill for one of your classes, it's a class skill for all of your classes. This means that a Factotum 1 / Anything 19 has a maximum rank of 23 in *all* skills (since the factotum has all skills as class skills).

HOWEVER, when spending skill points, you spend them on the class skills of the class you took. That same Factotum 1 / Anything 19 would have had to spend the Anything skill points on Anything skills or face double costs.

For instance, if that Anything were Wizard, he'd have to spend 2 skill points to gain a rank in Open Lock, since Open Lock is not a Wizard class skill. However, since it is a class skill for at least one of his classes, he can have up to his level +3 ranks in it, not half this number as normal for cross-class skills.

Also note the Able Learner feat in Races of Destiny, which reduces the cost to buy cross-class skills to 1 point per rank instead of 2. It does NOT affect the actual maximum rank, though -- just the cost.

In your friends' case, you're both right: He could have gained a level in rogue and increased his Survival skill (since it's a class skill for one of his classes and thus open to his level+3 maximum ranks), but he would have had to spend 2 points to do it since Survival isn't a rogue skill.

In your case, you have too many ranks in some skills - any skill that is a swashbuckler skill but not a rogue skill costs 2 rogue skill points to level up, and vice versa.
ElyasRavenwood
10-16-07, 12:47 AM Tempest Stormwind,
Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Let me see if I understand your summation.
Totaling the class levels and combining the skill lists of all of your classes determine Class/cross class maximum ranks. For example, in the case of my Rogue/swashbuckler 2/3 I can purchase a maximum of 8 ranks (level +3) in any skill that appears on either the rogue or swashbuckler skill list. Assuming I took a level or rouge at 5 level; and If my character had a sudden yen to move silently he could dump 8 ranks into the move silently skill at 5th level assuming he had not purchased any ranks previously.
However the caveat is that whatever class you are currently advancing in, you must obey the class skill list for determining which skills are class/cross class skills.
In other words a first level rogue can have a maximum of 4 ranks in any skill on its skill list. Upon reaching second level and taking a level in swashbuckler. I could purchase a rank in any of the previous rogue skills, which I had purchased 4 ranks raising my ranks to 5 ranks by spending skill points. The number of skill points a rank would cost is determined by the swashbuckler class skill list. Ranks in skills such as balance bluff, sense motive and tumble, which appear on both the rogue, and swashbuckler class skill list would cost 1 skill point per rank because it is a “ class skill”. A rank in skills like intimidate or diplomacy would have to be purchased as cross class skills, costing two skill points a rank because they are not on the Swashbuckler skill list. In the case of skills that appear on the rouge skill list, but not on the swashbuckler skill list and others that appear on the swashbuckler (although I cannot think of one that appears on the Swashbuckler but not on the rouge skill list) but not the rouge can have a maximum rank of LVL+3 ranks in them instead of the normal ½ ranks restriction for cross class skills.

Time to go and refigure my character, Count Tyrone Rugen's, skills.

Is this correct? Do I understand your summation? "please be honest this is for posterity"
If I am misunderstanding your explanation please let me know.
Thank you again.
Kouk
10-16-07, 01:21 AM Tempest Stormwind is correct, but let me try and say it a different way just in case.

Basically, your friend is correct.

On page 62 of the PHB at the bottom of the entry 'Skills at Higher Levels' it states Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3.

The Maximum number of Ranks you can have in a skill depends on whether that skill has ever been a class skill for any of your classes.

However, when you level up and "buy" Ranks in skills using Skill Points, you spend the skill points for the character class you are leveling up. This means if you are leveling up a Swashbuckler, Disable Device is not a Class Skill for the Swashbuckler, so it would take 2 Skill Points to raise your Disable Device by 1 rank.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXAMPLE:
Let's use a Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 with 12 Intelligence as an example (so I don't have to open my Complete Warrior book, I am using Fighter). This player wants to be a good Rogue, but also very athletic and able to stand up in a melee.

At first level, the player starts as a Rogue, to get the most skill points possible. Because he has a 12 INT and is Human, he will start with (4 x 10 = 40) 40 skill points.

As a level 1 character, the maximum number of ranks you can put into a class skill is 4 (your level +3) so the player chooses to put maximum ranks in 10 skills:
Bluff (4),
Climb (4),
Disable Device (4),
Hide (4),
Move Silently (4),
Open Lock (4),
Search (4),
Spot (4),
Swim (4),
and Tumble (4).

Now he has spent all of his skill points.

Next level (character level 2) he decides he wants to take a level of Fighter. Because he is a Human with an INT of 12, he gets 2 extra skill points on top of the Fighter's normal 2 skill points, for a total of 4 skill points.

The player realizes that he wants to put ranks into Disable Device, because he wants to be really good at getting rid of traps. However, since he is taking a level of Fighter, Disable Device is not a class skill for him this level. If he wanted to train Disable Device while he took the Fighter level, he would have to pay 2 skill points, so he decides to wait on that. Instead, he trains
Climb (1),
Jump (1),
Handle Animal (1),
and Swim (1).
And has spent all his Skill Points. He only put skill points into Class Skills for the Fighter, which lets him gain ranks on a one-for-one basis.

If he wanted to put ranks into Disable Device as a Fighter, he would have had to pay 2 skill points to raise his Disable Device by 1 Rank - though his maximum number of ranks would still be equal to his character level +3, which would be 5 ranks as a level 2 character.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keeping track of your Max Ranks is important if you have a lot of extra skill points and want to keep certain skills fully trained. If he thought it was worth the cost in skill ranks, the player above could have spent 2 skill points in Disable Device to "max it out" to be at 5 ranks (character level +3). However, even if he had enough skill points, he could not achieve 5 ranks in Knowledge(Religion) if he wanted to, because it is a Cross-Class skill for both of his classes. His Knowledge(Religion) Maximum would be half of what his class skills maximum is, so 5/2 = 2.5 Ranks (which would have cost 5 skill points, because as a cross class skill for a Fighter it would cost 2 skill points for a single Rank).
Kouk
10-16-07, 01:23 AM Tempest Stormwind,
Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Let me see if I understand your summation.
Totaling the class levels and combining the skill lists of all of your classes determine Class/cross class maximum ranks. For example, in the case of my Rogue/swashbuckler 2/3 I can purchase a maximum of 8 ranks (level +3) in any skill that appears on either the rogue or swashbuckler skill list. Assuming I took a level or rouge at 5 level; and If my character had a sudden yen to move silently he could dump 8 ranks into the move silently skill at 5th level assuming he had not purchased any ranks previously.
However the caveat is that whatever class you are currently advancing in, you must obey the class skill list for determining which skills are class/cross class skills.
In other words a first level rogue can have a maximum of 4 ranks in any skill on its skill list. Upon reaching second level and taking a level in swashbuckler. I could purchase a rank in any of the previous rogue skills, which I had purchased 4 ranks raising my ranks to 5 ranks by spending skill points. The number of skill points a rank would cost is determined by the swashbuckler class skill list. Ranks in skills such as balance bluff, sense motive and tumble, which appear on both the rogue, and swashbuckler class skill list would cost 1 skill point per rank because it is a “ class skill”. A rank in skills like intimidate or diplomacy would have to be purchased as cross class skills, costing two skill points a rank because they are not on the Swashbuckler skill list. In the case of skills that appear on the rouge skill list, but not on the swashbuckler skill list and others that appear on the swashbuckler (although I cannot think of one that appears on the Swashbuckler but not on the rouge skill list) but not the rouge can have a maximum rank of LVL+3 ranks in them instead of the normal ½ ranks restriction for cross class skills.

Time to go and refigure my character, Count Tyrone Rugen's, skills.

Is this correct? Do I understand your summation? "please be honest this is for posterity"
If I am misunderstanding your explanation please let me know.
Thank you again.

Hehe, you are right, and you got it before I finished my "example" :P oh well.
ElyasRavenwood
10-16-07, 01:46 AM Kouk,
Thank you for explaining this confusing morass of skills.
My 20 lvl build will be 5 lvls of swashbuckler, 5 lvls of rogue, and 10 levels of Deulist. He is a human with a 16 intelegence.
as for skills I plan to focus on Appraise, balance, bluff, climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, sense motive, spot, tumble.

I my inspiration for the character is the "six fingered man", Count Tyrone Rugen, from the Princess Bride. I plan to try and make him the power behind the throne, the aranger, or the "kings hand" so to speak.

of to do skills :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 10-15-07, 08:38 PM	I have a quick question. I have a 1-lvl rogue 3rd lvl swashbuckler. I have just gotten enough experience to level him up. I plan to take another level of rouge to make the character a 2nd lvl rouge 3rd level swashbuckler. The level progression thus far has been 1st level 1 rogue, 2nd level 1 swashbuckler, 3rd level 2 swashbuckler, 4th level 3 swashbuckler. What are the rules regarding multiclassing and class skills? Thus far I have assumed that my characters class skills include every skill on the rogue list and the swashbuckler list. When I have leveled up I have spent my skill points with the assumption that at each level the rogue skills have been part of my class skill list. My friend has a similar character with 1 level of ranger and 3 levels of rogue. He wanted to increase his survival skill ranks so he took a second level of ranger at 5th level. I pointed out that if he leveled up as a rogue, the survival skill would be a class skill for him because of the multi classing rules. He thought I was incorrect. He thinks that the skill list of the class you take at the current level dictates what skills are class skills and cross class skills. I think that the only skills that would be cross class are those skills, which do not appear on any of your classes’ skill lists. Which of us is right? Any help would be appreciated. IF I am wrong this means I have to completely dismantle my skills and re do my skills rank-by-rank, and level-by-level. Any help would be appreciated, thanks. His character is focusing on the traditional thief skills, I.e. sleight of hand, disable trap, open lock, tumble, move silently, Hide, Bluff etc. There is some overlap, but my character has focused on the following skills: Appraise, balance, bluff, climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, sense motive, spot, tumble. (He is human with 16 intelligence) Any help would be appreciated, thanks
Tempest Stormwind 10-15-07, 08:53 PM	If it's a class skill for one of your classes, it's a class skill for all of your classes. This means that a Factotum 1 / Anything 19 has a maximum rank of 23 in all skills (since the factotum has all skills as class skills). HOWEVER, when spending skill points, you spend them on the class skills of the class you took. That same Factotum 1 / Anything 19 would have had to spend the Anything skill points on Anything skills or face double costs. For instance, if that Anything were Wizard, he'd have to spend 2 skill points to gain a rank in Open Lock, since Open Lock is not a Wizard class skill. However, since it is a class skill for at least one of his classes, he can have up to his level +3 ranks in it, not half this number as normal for cross-class skills. Also note the Able Learner feat in Races of Destiny, which reduces the cost to buy cross-class skills to 1 point per rank instead of 2. It does NOT affect the actual maximum rank, though -- just the cost. In your friends' case, you're both right: He could have gained a level in rogue and increased his Survival skill (since it's a class skill for one of his classes and thus open to his level+3 maximum ranks), but he would have had to spend 2 points to do it since Survival isn't a rogue skill. In your case, you have too many ranks in some skills - any skill that is a swashbuckler skill but not a rogue skill costs 2 rogue skill points to level up, and vice versa.
ElyasRavenwood 10-16-07, 12:47 AM	Tempest Stormwind, Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Let me see if I understand your summation. Totaling the class levels and combining the skill lists of all of your classes determine Class/cross class maximum ranks. For example, in the case of my Rogue/swashbuckler 2/3 I can purchase a maximum of 8 ranks (level +3) in any skill that appears on either the rogue or swashbuckler skill list. Assuming I took a level or rouge at 5 level; and If my character had a sudden yen to move silently he could dump 8 ranks into the move silently skill at 5th level assuming he had not purchased any ranks previously. However the caveat is that whatever class you are currently advancing in, you must obey the class skill list for determining which skills are class/cross class skills. In other words a first level rogue can have a maximum of 4 ranks in any skill on its skill list. Upon reaching second level and taking a level in swashbuckler. I could purchase a rank in any of the previous rogue skills, which I had purchased 4 ranks raising my ranks to 5 ranks by spending skill points. The number of skill points a rank would cost is determined by the swashbuckler class skill list. Ranks in skills such as balance bluff, sense motive and tumble, which appear on both the rogue, and swashbuckler class skill list would cost 1 skill point per rank because it is a “ class skill”. A rank in skills like intimidate or diplomacy would have to be purchased as cross class skills, costing two skill points a rank because they are not on the Swashbuckler skill list. In the case of skills that appear on the rouge skill list, but not on the swashbuckler skill list and others that appear on the swashbuckler (although I cannot think of one that appears on the Swashbuckler but not on the rouge skill list) but not the rouge can have a maximum rank of LVL+3 ranks in them instead of the normal ½ ranks restriction for cross class skills. Time to go and refigure my character, Count Tyrone Rugen's, skills. Is this correct? Do I understand your summation? "please be honest this is for posterity" If I am misunderstanding your explanation please let me know. Thank you again.
Kouk 10-16-07, 01:21 AM	Tempest Stormwind is correct, but let me try and say it a different way just in case. Basically, your friend is correct. On page 62 of the PHB at the bottom of the entry 'Skills at Higher Levels' it states Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level +3. The Maximum number of Ranks you can have in a skill depends on whether that skill has ever been a class skill for any of your classes. However, when you level up and "buy" Ranks in skills using Skill Points, you spend the skill points for the character class you are leveling up. This means if you are leveling up a Swashbuckler, Disable Device is not a Class Skill for the Swashbuckler, so it would take 2 Skill Points to raise your Disable Device by 1 rank. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- EXAMPLE: Let's use a Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 with 12 Intelligence as an example (so I don't have to open my Complete Warrior book, I am using Fighter). This player wants to be a good Rogue, but also very athletic and able to stand up in a melee. At first level, the player starts as a Rogue, to get the most skill points possible. Because he has a 12 INT and is Human, he will start with (4 x 10 = 40) 40 skill points. As a level 1 character, the maximum number of ranks you can put into a class skill is 4 (your level +3) so the player chooses to put maximum ranks in 10 skills: Bluff (4), Climb (4), Disable Device (4), Hide (4), Move Silently (4), Open Lock (4), Search (4), Spot (4), Swim (4), and Tumble (4). Now he has spent all of his skill points. Next level (character level 2) he decides he wants to take a level of Fighter. Because he is a Human with an INT of 12, he gets 2 extra skill points on top of the Fighter's normal 2 skill points, for a total of 4 skill points. The player realizes that he wants to put ranks into Disable Device, because he wants to be really good at getting rid of traps. However, since he is taking a level of Fighter, Disable Device is not a class skill for him this level. If he wanted to train Disable Device while he took the Fighter level, he would have to pay 2 skill points, so he decides to wait on that. Instead, he trains Climb (1), Jump (1), Handle Animal (1), and Swim (1). And has spent all his Skill Points. He only put skill points into Class Skills for the Fighter, which lets him gain ranks on a one-for-one basis. If he wanted to put ranks into Disable Device as a Fighter, he would have had to pay 2 skill points to raise his Disable Device by 1 Rank - though his maximum number of ranks would still be equal to his character level +3, which would be 5 ranks as a level 2 character. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keeping track of your Max Ranks is important if you have a lot of extra skill points and want to keep certain skills fully trained. If he thought it was worth the cost in skill ranks, the player above could have spent 2 skill points in Disable Device to "max it out" to be at 5 ranks (character level +3). However, even if he had enough skill points, he could not achieve 5 ranks in Knowledge(Religion) if he wanted to, because it is a Cross-Class skill for both of his classes. His Knowledge(Religion) Maximum would be half of what his class skills maximum is, so 5/2 = 2.5 Ranks (which would have cost 5 skill points, because as a cross class skill for a Fighter it would cost 2 skill points for a single Rank).
Kouk 10-16-07, 01:23 AM	Tempest Stormwind, Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. Let me see if I understand your summation. Totaling the class levels and combining the skill lists of all of your classes determine Class/cross class maximum ranks. For example, in the case of my Rogue/swashbuckler 2/3 I can purchase a maximum of 8 ranks (level +3) in any skill that appears on either the rogue or swashbuckler skill list. Assuming I took a level or rouge at 5 level; and If my character had a sudden yen to move silently he could dump 8 ranks into the move silently skill at 5th level assuming he had not purchased any ranks previously. However the caveat is that whatever class you are currently advancing in, you must obey the class skill list for determining which skills are class/cross class skills. In other words a first level rogue can have a maximum of 4 ranks in any skill on its skill list. Upon reaching second level and taking a level in swashbuckler. I could purchase a rank in any of the previous rogue skills, which I had purchased 4 ranks raising my ranks to 5 ranks by spending skill points. The number of skill points a rank would cost is determined by the swashbuckler class skill list. Ranks in skills such as balance bluff, sense motive and tumble, which appear on both the rogue, and swashbuckler class skill list would cost 1 skill point per rank because it is a “ class skill”. A rank in skills like intimidate or diplomacy would have to be purchased as cross class skills, costing two skill points a rank because they are not on the Swashbuckler skill list. In the case of skills that appear on the rouge skill list, but not on the swashbuckler skill list and others that appear on the swashbuckler (although I cannot think of one that appears on the Swashbuckler but not on the rouge skill list) but not the rouge can have a maximum rank of LVL+3 ranks in them instead of the normal ½ ranks restriction for cross class skills. Time to go and refigure my character, Count Tyrone Rugen's, skills. Is this correct? Do I understand your summation? "please be honest this is for posterity" If I am misunderstanding your explanation please let me know. Thank you again. Hehe, you are right, and you got it before I finished my "example" :P oh well.
ElyasRavenwood 10-16-07, 01:46 AM	Kouk, Thank you for explaining this confusing morass of skills. My 20 lvl build will be 5 lvls of swashbuckler, 5 lvls of rogue, and 10 levels of Deulist. He is a human with a 16 intelegence. as for skills I plan to focus on Appraise, balance, bluff, climb, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, sense motive, spot, tumble. I my inspiration for the character is the "six fingered man", Count Tyrone Rugen, from the Princess Bride. I plan to try and make him the power behind the throne, the aranger, or the "kings hand" so to speak. of to do skills :D