Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Valis 04-10-08, 10:25 AM	I have a question about these feats being combined. Reach Spell says that it gives a spell with the range of touch a range of up to 30 feet. Chain Spell says that any spell that has a range of greater than touch can be turned into a chain spell. In theory, could you then take a touch spell such as Barkskin. Use Reach Spell to give it greater than touch reach and then Chain Spell it to give it to your whole party?
Maldrin 04-10-08, 10:28 AM	You can combine metamagic feats, so long as you're willing to fill the appropriate spell slot.
Valis 04-10-08, 10:34 AM	I understand you can combine metamagic feats, the question is, is the combo legit?
foxtail 04-10-08, 11:21 AM	Reach Spell changes the spell's range to a value greater than "touch". Therefore, it subsequently becomes a valid spell for Chain Spell. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Valis 04-10-08, 02:37 PM	Anyone else have any thoughts on the combo?
LSMFT 04-10-08, 02:50 PM	If you want to use a seventh-level slot for what amounts to a Mass version of a second-level spell, go for it. I don't see any barrier as the feats are written. I’m not your DM though. Could he find a way to say no? Yes. Benefit: Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained so as to affect that primary target normally,Most people believe that this “specifies a single target” requirement precludes the use of this feat with rays. (They don’t have a Target, but have Effect: Ray.) The spell effectively becomes a ray, Me? You’re using a seventh-level slot. Go for it. But, could your DM say, Chain won’t work with rays and Reach spells are rays, while pointing at more than enough textual evidence to support that ruling. Yes, he could.
Valis 04-10-08, 02:55 PM	My DM said it's open for interpretation and he thinks that seeings how chain spell doesn't normally work on Barkskin because it's a touch spell that it will not work still even though reach spell has been applied.
LordTarmos 04-10-08, 03:15 PM	My DM said it's open for interpretation and he thinks that seeings how chain spell doesn't normally work on Barkskin because it's a touch spell that it will not work still even though reach spell has been applied. but with your application of reach spell the barkskin spell is no longer a touch spell it is now 30 foot ray and as such chain spell will apply to it but i think it would be a waste of a higher level spot but it would work. (better use for chain spell would be ray of enfeeble (for a 5th level spot)(or max ray of enfeeble for a 8th level spot), enfeebled they will not hit you as often and they do not hit you as hard, on melee creatures or ray of stupidity on casters) i mean barkskin potions are cheap anyway if they want barkskin have them buy a potion
Valis 04-10-08, 03:29 PM	Hehe, well that's why I get a rod of reach spell and then just use chain spell for a 5th level total party buff.
LSMFT 04-10-08, 04:22 PM	Yes, it ceases to be a touch spell the moment reach is applied. Therefore, it is open for the use of Chain Spell (assuming that your DM is ok with Chain working of rays, or doesn't consider it a ray.) Hehe, well that's why I get a rod of reach spell and then just use chain spell for a 5th level total party buff.Two problems. You can't apply Chain Spell to Barkskin until you have it modified with Reach Spell. At the time you prepare the Chained Barkskin, Reach isn't there. It won't be until you use the rod. It would take a very retentive DM to notice this issue, let alone make an issue of it. The second is, well, cost. You need a regular metamagic rod of reach to do this. (Multiple metamagic adjustments stack, so no lesser rod.) This costs you 32,500 gp. OK, fine. It is an investment. But for this one usage? It's a pretty big one.
Valis 04-10-08, 04:32 PM	Yes, it ceases to be a touch spell the moment reach is applied. Therefore, it is open for the use of Chain Spell (assuming that your DM is ok with Chain working of rays, or doesn't consider it a ray.) Two problems. You can't apply Chain Spell to Barkskin until you have it modified with Reach Spell. At the time you prepare the Chained Barkskin, Reach isn't there. It won't be until you use the rod. It would take a very retentive DM to notice this issue, let alone make an issue of it. The second is, well, cost. You need a regular metamagic rod of reach to do this. (Multiple metamagic adjustments stack, so no lesser rod.) This costs you 32,500 gp. OK, fine. It is an investment. But for this one usage? It's a pretty big one. We're playing with the daily spell lists from UA so we technically do not have to prepare metamagic feats ahead of time. Spontaneous metamagics basically...as long as you can pay for it.
LordTarmos 04-10-08, 05:23 PM	We're playing with the daily spell lists from UA so we technically do not have to prepare metamagic feats ahead of time. Spontaneous metamagics basically...as long as you can pay for it. never the less the other guy is right in this case you have to spontaneously cast your spell through the rod and as such can not add the chain to the spell until after it gets the reach spell which does not happen until it goes through the rod so in this case it would not work you are in effect chaining a touch spell you have to add reach before it goes through the rod not after. If you can get one you could use a metamagic chain rod (homebrew item) to cast the reach spell and that would work but not vice versa sorry.
Valis 04-10-08, 05:58 PM	never the less the other guy is right in this case you have to spontaneously cast your spell through the rod and as such can not add the chain to the spell until after it gets the reach spell which does not happen until it goes through the rod so in this case it would not work you are in effect chaining a touch spell you have to add reach before it goes through the rod not after. If you can get one you could use a metamagic chain rod (homebrew item) to cast the reach spell and that would work but not vice versa sorry. Incorrect, the rod goes off with the spell simultaneously just as if you had applied the feat. The rod has no activation. It is simply used with the spell, you then sponaneously add chain spell to he spell as a sorcerer would. In effect, this is able to be done. It is basically exactly the same as a sorc.
jaelis 04-11-08, 02:03 PM	Incorrect, the rod goes off with the spell simultaneously just as if you had applied the feat. The rod has no activation. It is simply used with the spell, you then sponaneously add chain spell to he spell as a sorcerer would. Yes, the rod has no activation. But in order to do the combo, a druid would have needed to prep a chained barkskin earlier that day, which is not legal. A spontaneous caster could pull it off though. But I think LSMFTs earlier point about a reach spell not being a targetted spell is also a valid concern.
JamesMaissen 04-11-08, 02:30 PM	I have a question about these feats being combined. Reach Spell says that it gives a spell with the range of touch a range of up to 30 feet. Chain Spell says that any spell that has a range of greater than touch can be turned into a chain spell. In theory, could you then take a touch spell such as Barkskin. Use Reach Spell to give it greater than touch reach and then Chain Spell it to give it to your whole party? Doesn't reach spell in effect make a spell into a ray? Ray's aren't targeted, but rather effects that can hit targets (you can throw a ray at someone that has full concealment against you with a 50-50 miss chance). That doesn't seem valid for chaining. You might consider the warweaver PrC. It's a wizard PrC that looses a caster level, but can achieve what you are desiring here. -James
Eerongal 04-11-08, 02:44 PM	Doesn't reach spell in effect make a spell into a ray? Ray's aren't targeted, but rather effects that can hit targets (you can throw a ray at someone that has full concealment against you with a 50-50 miss chance). That doesn't seem valid for chaining. You might consider the warweaver PrC. It's a wizard PrC that looses a caster level, but can achieve what you are desiring here. -James I think you're technically correct (i'm away from book at the moment) in this regards to how it works. That being said, i certainly don't see it as being particularily broken, and i would allow it.
LSMFT 04-11-08, 03:16 PM	Rays and Chain Spell: The language seems to eliminate rays. Although one ray does have a range greater than touch and can affect a single target, the most popular reading, in my experience, is that rays are out. For the spell to work, it has to have a “Target:” line and indicate only one thing. I have seen people allow rays. Is Reach a ray? Tough to say. “The spell effectively becomes a ray…” But does that mean that that it has a change to “Effect: ray?” Maybe. One can certainly say that it does not have a Target: line as a result of this. Mechanically, it doesn’t seem to fit with any spell that required a to hit roll (because there is no indication as to what happens if you miss.) If you DM is even moderately strict on how he reads these feats, it isn't going to work out. Personally, it is a +3 for chain, another +2 for reach. A seventh-level spell. Mass Cure Moderate is level seven for a druid. (Regular Cure Moderate is Druid 3.) Letting this work like a Mass Barkskin seems fine.
Merestil Haye 04-11-08, 03:49 PM	The issue isn't whether the particular combination you're thinking of is not gamebreaking. The issue is precedent. If you allow a spell that has been turned into a reach spell to have Chain Spell applied, you allow that for every single spell that requires a ranged touch attack as well. And that is decidedly not the intention of Chain Spell. My advice would be don't allow it. Oh, and just to up the blag factor, Shivering Touch is a spell with a range of touch. This proposal would allow chained Shivering Touch. No thank you.
LSMFT 04-11-08, 04:09 PM	If you allow Shivering Touch and Reach Spell, all the “blag factor” is right there. The primary opponent is going to be in bad shape: 10-11 points of Dex damage. I mean, there a reason so many people have an issue with this spell. But if you are ok with that, stressing the if, and allow that in your campaign, is the average of 5 points of damage, 2 on a reflex save, for the secondary targets going to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back?
Merestil Haye 04-11-08, 04:37 PM	No. Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Clumsiness were what decided me against it. All of these have their full effect against the secondary targets.When they are not supposed to be affected by Chain Spell at all. This is why I am against allowing a touch range spell with Reach Spell to be Chained. Because it opens the door for other things that are not supposed to be affected by Chain Spell to benefit from it. Bedsides, iirc, a common houserule for Shivering Touch is to turn it into a penalty. That would put it into the same class as the spells above; full effect on all targets. I'd just rather not open Pandora's Box at all in this situation.
Eerongal 04-11-08, 05:37 PM	instead of reach+chaining a spell to hit two people (or heck, the same person twice), you could just use twin spell for 1 less spell level adjustment. If i remember correctly, twin spell has no restriction on the range of spells it can be applied to. Granted, said spell might not have range because of reach spell. (chain hits more targets, though, correct?)
Merestil Haye 04-11-08, 08:01 PM	A Chained spell cannot hit the same target twice. A Twinned spell must do so.
LSMFT 04-12-08, 12:03 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion and Ray of Clumsiness were what decided me against it. All of these have their full effect against the secondary targets.When they are not supposed to be affected by Chain Spell at all.That's true, but with RoE, for example, a chained version is a fourth-level spell: Evards, Polymorph. If you were going to have a "chain ray" metamagic, wouldn't +3 seem at least in the ball park?
Merestil Haye 04-12-08, 12:28 PM	That's true, but with RoE, for example, a chained version is a fourth-level spell: Evards, Polymorph. If you were going to have a "chain ray" metamagic, wouldn't +3 seem at least in the ball park?I was trying to make the point that allowing this combination declares ray spells as targeted spells. There are all sorts of ramifications to doing this, those rays just being the first that came to mind. As a matter of fact, since Split Ray is a metamagic that allows one extra ray for a +2 level adjustment, a "Radiate Spell" type feat could be viable at +3 or +4. I'd try it out at +4 first. But I will still never allow Chain Spell to work on spells that do not have a "Target" entry in their header. Ray spells do not.
LSMFT 04-12-08, 01:23 PM	I was trying to make the point that allowing this combination declares ray spells as targeted spells. There are all sorts of ramifications to doing this, those rays just being the first that came to mind.I know. And you should consider the ramifications. As a matter of fact, since Split Ray is a metamagic that allows one extra ray for a +2 level adjustment, a "Radiate Spell" type feat could be viable at +3 or +4. I'd try it out at +4 first.Split Ray only allows one additional ray, but it also has none of the other limitations. These limitations (1/2 damage, automatic reflex save, bonus to saves) kick in on a vast majority of spells. Only a very select few, RoE and RoC, not Ray of Exhaustion, fall into the no-damage/no save category. It can also strike the same target more than once, which chain cannot. Sure, with Chain, I could dozens of targets, but only if they are all quite close. +4/+3, same ballpark. I'd try +3 since it is already there.