Reach Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reach Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Olorin_
04-18-07, 06:56 PM Hi,

A touch spell modified by reach spell can be made persistent??

And an incantatrix can first cast a touch spell,then use metamagic effect(reach spell) and finally metamagic effect(persistent spell) on the touch(reached) spell??

Thanks!!!
Merestil Haye
04-18-07, 08:08 PM Hi,

A touch spell modified by reach spell can be made persistent??No.

A spell can only be made permanent if it is fixed range. This means that it radiates out for the specified distance from the caster. A ray spell with a range of 30' is not "fixed" as the ray can be aimed at any creature or object within the range - it could be 5' away.

And an incantatrix can first cast a touch spell,then use metamagic effect(reach spell) and finally metamagic effect(persistent spell) on the touch(reached) spell??Again no, for the reasons above.
Olorin_
04-19-07, 11:34 AM A spell can only be made permanent if it is fixed range. This means that it radiates out for the specified distance from the caster. A ray spell with a range of 30' is not "fixed" as the ray can be aimed at any creature or object within the range - it could be 5' away.

???.So,doesn't matter if the range is a number,if the spell's effect is ray it isn't fixed?But detect magic also can be aimed adn it's fixed...I think that what matter is the range not the effect,but if i'm wrong there is another metamagic feat that change the range to fixed??
jaelis
04-19-07, 12:44 PM I think I disagree with Merestil Haye. I would say a spell with fixed range is one where the "Range" entry is a fixed number.

Whether it would work with Reach Spell though would be a DM call. It makes some sense, but then, Reach Spell doesn't specifically say "the range of the spell becomes 30 ft," it says "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet." Whether or not that is the same thing is a question of interpretation.

Myself, I would have already banned Persistant Spell, so this wouldn't come up.
tarkin
04-19-07, 12:51 PM Note:

Even if you change the duration to Persistent, it would not change the fact that once you use the touch spell 1 time it ends. (With a spell like Chill Touch, you could use it x times, then the spell ends)
jaelis
04-19-07, 12:54 PM You can't apply persistant spell to a spell with instantaneous duration anyway, so chill touch is already out. But something like protection from evil is worth considering.

What bothers me is that you can't combine reach spell and enlarge spell to get a longer range. It would all be easier if reach spell gave a range of "close" instead.
Merestil Haye
04-19-07, 01:38 PM I think I disagree with Merestil Haye. I would say a spell with fixed range is one where the "Range" entry is a fixed number.

Whether it would work with Reach Spell though would be a DM call. It makes some sense, but then, Reach Spell doesn't specifically say "the range of the spell becomes 30 ft," it says "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet." Whether or not that is the same thing is a question of interpretation.

Myself, I would have already banned Persistant Spell, so this wouldn't come up.A range of 30' means "the spell can affect any creature between 5' and 30' away from you." How is that a fixed range? You make a choice during the casting of the spell.

Persisted spells allow no such choice. It requires that every creature up to 30' away from you when you cast the spell be affected.
jaelis
04-19-07, 01:44 PM All that persistant spell says is: "The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range."

Are you arguing that a regular spell with a range entry of a fixed number does not qualify for this?

Or are you saying that a spell with a range entry of a fixed number would always affect all targets in range, and thus a reach spell would not be the same thing?

I can't really see how you can support the first. The second is a reasonable interpretation, though I'd want to check through all the normal fixed range spells to be sure.
Merestil Haye
04-19-07, 02:25 PM All that persistant spell says is: "The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range."

Are you arguing that a regular spell with a range entry of a fixed number does not qualify for this?

Or are you saying that a spell with a range entry of a fixed number would always affect all targets in range, and thus a reach spell would not be the same thing?

I can't really see how you can support the first. The second is a reasonable interpretation, though I'd want to check through all the normal fixed range spells to be sure.I follow the second interpretation. Let's take some examples.

Detect Magic is a spell with a fixed range of 60'. The caster has no choice in the matter. He automatically detects magic in all spaces from himself out to 60' away in the direction he concentrates on (it's a cone). Detect Magic may be Persisted. (If that's how you want to use a 6th level spell slot, that is).

Another example is Antimagic Field. It radiates out in a 10' emanation from the caster and affects everything in the area.

A spell affected with the Reach Spell metamagic feat is a ray. The feat is explicit about this. You are required to make a ranged touch attack to make the ray strike the target.

Because you are aiming a ray, you may affect someone 5' from you, 10' from you, 15' from you, 20' from you, 25' from you or 30' from you. That range is not fixed. It is chosen when you aim the ray.

You may only Persist a spell if you have no choice in how far away what will be affected is. That's what "fixed" means in this context. Under no circumstances may you Persist a Reach spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Olorin_ 04-18-07, 06:56 PM	Hi, A touch spell modified by reach spell can be made persistent?? And an incantatrix can first cast a touch spell,then use metamagic effect(reach spell) and finally metamagic effect(persistent spell) on the touch(reached) spell?? Thanks!!!
Merestil Haye 04-18-07, 08:08 PM	Hi, A touch spell modified by reach spell can be made persistent??No. A spell can only be made permanent if it is fixed range. This means that it radiates out for the specified distance from the caster. A ray spell with a range of 30' is not "fixed" as the ray can be aimed at any creature or object within the range - it could be 5' away. And an incantatrix can first cast a touch spell,then use metamagic effect(reach spell) and finally metamagic effect(persistent spell) on the touch(reached) spell??Again no, for the reasons above.
Olorin_ 04-19-07, 11:34 AM	A spell can only be made permanent if it is fixed range. This means that it radiates out for the specified distance from the caster. A ray spell with a range of 30' is not "fixed" as the ray can be aimed at any creature or object within the range - it could be 5' away. ???.So,doesn't matter if the range is a number,if the spell's effect is ray it isn't fixed?But detect magic also can be aimed adn it's fixed...I think that what matter is the range not the effect,but if i'm wrong there is another metamagic feat that change the range to fixed??
jaelis 04-19-07, 12:44 PM	I think I disagree with Merestil Haye. I would say a spell with fixed range is one where the "Range" entry is a fixed number. Whether it would work with Reach Spell though would be a DM call. It makes some sense, but then, Reach Spell doesn't specifically say "the range of the spell becomes 30 ft," it says "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet." Whether or not that is the same thing is a question of interpretation. Myself, I would have already banned Persistant Spell, so this wouldn't come up.
tarkin 04-19-07, 12:51 PM	Note: Even if you change the duration to Persistent, it would not change the fact that once you use the touch spell 1 time it ends. (With a spell like Chill Touch, you could use it x times, then the spell ends)
jaelis 04-19-07, 12:54 PM	You can't apply persistant spell to a spell with instantaneous duration anyway, so chill touch is already out. But something like protection from evil is worth considering. What bothers me is that you can't combine reach spell and enlarge spell to get a longer range. It would all be easier if reach spell gave a range of "close" instead.
Merestil Haye 04-19-07, 01:38 PM	I think I disagree with Merestil Haye. I would say a spell with fixed range is one where the "Range" entry is a fixed number. Whether it would work with Reach Spell though would be a DM call. It makes some sense, but then, Reach Spell doesn't specifically say "the range of the spell becomes 30 ft," it says "You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet." Whether or not that is the same thing is a question of interpretation. Myself, I would have already banned Persistant Spell, so this wouldn't come up.A range of 30' means "the spell can affect any creature between 5' and 30' away from you." How is that a fixed range? You make a choice during the casting of the spell. Persisted spells allow no such choice. It requires that every creature up to 30' away from you when you cast the spell be affected.
jaelis 04-19-07, 01:44 PM	All that persistant spell says is: "The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range." Are you arguing that a regular spell with a range entry of a fixed number does not qualify for this? Or are you saying that a spell with a range entry of a fixed number would always affect all targets in range, and thus a reach spell would not be the same thing? I can't really see how you can support the first. The second is a reasonable interpretation, though I'd want to check through all the normal fixed range spells to be sure.
Merestil Haye 04-19-07, 02:25 PM	All that persistant spell says is: "The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range." Are you arguing that a regular spell with a range entry of a fixed number does not qualify for this? Or are you saying that a spell with a range entry of a fixed number would always affect all targets in range, and thus a reach spell would not be the same thing? I can't really see how you can support the first. The second is a reasonable interpretation, though I'd want to check through all the normal fixed range spells to be sure.I follow the second interpretation. Let's take some examples. Detect Magic is a spell with a fixed range of 60'. The caster has no choice in the matter. He automatically detects magic in all spaces from himself out to 60' away in the direction he concentrates on (it's a cone). Detect Magic may be Persisted. (If that's how you want to use a 6th level spell slot, that is). Another example is Antimagic Field. It radiates out in a 10' emanation from the caster and affects everything in the area. A spell affected with the Reach Spell metamagic feat is a ray. The feat is explicit about this. You are required to make a ranged touch attack to make the ray strike the target. Because you are aiming a ray, you may affect someone 5' from you, 10' from you, 15' from you, 20' from you, 25' from you or 30' from you. That range is not fixed. It is chosen when you aim the ray. You may only Persist a spell if you have no choice in how far away what will be affected is. That's what "fixed" means in this context. Under no circumstances may you Persist a Reach spell.