Reflex saves when flat-footed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reflex saves when flat-footed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElvinFox
08-30-07, 04:16 PM Is there a rule on if you're allowed a reflex save when flat-footed? If you have no dexterity bonus while flat-footed, shouldn't you be denied reflex save attempts?
tarkin
08-30-07, 05:02 PM 1 Yes you are allowed a reflex save.

2. When flat footed you do NOT lose your Dex. You just lose your Dex bonus to AC.

Note that you are always flat footed before you init arrives, and your init depends on your Dex.

If you were right, that you lose your Dex, then Dex could never raise your Initiative.

(Note this mean that yes you get your Dex to a Reflex save that happens when you are flat footed.)
Dheran
08-30-07, 06:14 PM The rules specify that you get to make Reflex saves when you're
flat-footed
squeezing
sleeping
bound
bound
paralyzed
comatose
all of the above
goawayugh
08-31-07, 11:29 AM Reflex saves are more of an abstract concept, rather than your own ability to move out of the way of stuff. It also represents luck. Example: Not every single space of a fireball has fire in it, your successful Ref save if you are paralyzed would represent an area of the fireball where it is not so hot.

Unless something specifically says that it affects Ref saves, then you always get one (assuming the effect allows one in the first place).
1 ton ghost
08-31-07, 01:50 PM you can RFLX out when you're bound/comatose/paralyzed?

um, if the rules say that, then i'm gonna' have to toss that out cuz' it stands to reason (IMO) that if you can't dodge out of the way due to being bound and unconsious you're gonna' eat that lightning bolt.
i knew you could when squeezing which seemed like a stretch but being paralyzed, comatose? c'mon. if you can't even move you don't really have any reflex action to speak of. i know you get Will and Fort when you're asleep and so on, but Rflx is pretty much a given in that a degree of physicality is a must.
to each his own and all, but that sounds kinda' like exploitation of the rules.
goawayugh
08-31-07, 01:56 PM Did you even read my previous post?

A Ref save does not always involve YOU moving out of the way, but sometimes the thing your saving against misses you.

If you were my DM and ruled no Ref save if you can't move, I'd find another DM.
Istaran
08-31-07, 02:03 PM you can RFLX out when you're bound/comatose/paralyzed?

um, if the rules say that, then i'm gonna' have to toss that out cuz' it stands to reason (IMO) that if you can't dodge out of the way due to being bound and unconsious you're gonna' eat that lightning bolt.
i knew you could when squeezing which seemed like a stretch but being paralyzed, comatose? c'mon. if you can't even move you don't really have any reflex action to speak of. i know you get Will and Fort when you're asleep and so on, but Rflx is pretty much a given in that a degree of physicality is a must.
to each his own and all, but that sounds kinda' like exploitation of the rules.

Yes you can reflex save. However you have effective dex 0 while helpless, so a -5 dex mod. Even a rogue 5 will have a negative ref save under those conditions. Also note that Evasion does not work while helpless. So yes, the Rogue 20 has a +7 ref save while helpless, but still takes half on a successful save, full on a failed save. Some of that is luck.
1 ton ghost
08-31-07, 02:54 PM i guess that makes sense though the logic is baffling w/ minimal Dex and all. i know you're always supposed to have an "out", it just stretches the imagination to such an extent...

that brings up the FORT debate w/ undead. most ppl assume you never have to make MOST Fort saves given lack of Con and all. they do rarely; when you are stuck by a Disintegrate, your necropolitan is probably going to meet final death so to speak. you still get your Fort, just no Con to back it up.
your argument is under similar pretext, it's just the delivery is a far more abstract. honestly, i didn't think you'd get a Reflex save when you can't move at all and especially if you aren't even conscious/can't move.
i was under the impression you couldn't if severely hampered, you know, like being helpless...just seems daft.

a DM in a past game ruled no Reflex under much less arduous circumstances and his argument was sound enough, we didn't feel like whining so we moved on. and no, we didn't look for a new DM, we played through and didn't take our toys home like kids...
Istaran
08-31-07, 03:10 PM My personal policy to state my objection, prove my point with RAW if I can very quickly, and then let the DM do whatever he wants.. I generally don't concider it worth slowing down the game for more than a minute to dispute rules.
As for the reflex thing, again some of it is just luck.. there's parts of the fireball that are hotter and parts that aren't as hot.. there's parts of your body that are more susceptable and parts that you can shield those parts with, etc. Being an immobile hunk of flesh seriously impedes your ability to 'make your own luck' but it does not prohibit being lucky. And your Cloak of Resistance should still count for something as well. I will however admit that keeping your base ref save which stems from the skills developed in working your way into your class is a bit... counterintuitive at best.
1 ton ghost
08-31-07, 03:17 PM well said.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElvinFox 08-30-07, 04:16 PM	Is there a rule on if you're allowed a reflex save when flat-footed? If you have no dexterity bonus while flat-footed, shouldn't you be denied reflex save attempts?
tarkin 08-30-07, 05:02 PM	1 Yes you are allowed a reflex save. 2. When flat footed you do NOT lose your Dex. You just lose your Dex bonus to AC. Note that you are always flat footed before you init arrives, and your init depends on your Dex. If you were right, that you lose your Dex, then Dex could never raise your Initiative. (Note this mean that yes you get your Dex to a Reflex save that happens when you are flat footed.)
Dheran 08-30-07, 06:14 PM	The rules specify that you get to make Reflex saves when you're flat-footed squeezing sleeping bound bound paralyzed comatose all of the above
goawayugh 08-31-07, 11:29 AM	Reflex saves are more of an abstract concept, rather than your own ability to move out of the way of stuff. It also represents luck. Example: Not every single space of a fireball has fire in it, your successful Ref save if you are paralyzed would represent an area of the fireball where it is not so hot. Unless something specifically says that it affects Ref saves, then you always get one (assuming the effect allows one in the first place).
1 ton ghost 08-31-07, 01:50 PM	you can RFLX out when you're bound/comatose/paralyzed? um, if the rules say that, then i'm gonna' have to toss that out cuz' it stands to reason (IMO) that if you can't dodge out of the way due to being bound and unconsious you're gonna' eat that lightning bolt. i knew you could when squeezing which seemed like a stretch but being paralyzed, comatose? c'mon. if you can't even move you don't really have any reflex action to speak of. i know you get Will and Fort when you're asleep and so on, but Rflx is pretty much a given in that a degree of physicality is a must. to each his own and all, but that sounds kinda' like exploitation of the rules.
goawayugh 08-31-07, 01:56 PM	Did you even read my previous post? A Ref save does not always involve YOU moving out of the way, but sometimes the thing your saving against misses you. If you were my DM and ruled no Ref save if you can't move, I'd find another DM.
Istaran 08-31-07, 02:03 PM	you can RFLX out when you're bound/comatose/paralyzed? um, if the rules say that, then i'm gonna' have to toss that out cuz' it stands to reason (IMO) that if you can't dodge out of the way due to being bound and unconsious you're gonna' eat that lightning bolt. i knew you could when squeezing which seemed like a stretch but being paralyzed, comatose? c'mon. if you can't even move you don't really have any reflex action to speak of. i know you get Will and Fort when you're asleep and so on, but Rflx is pretty much a given in that a degree of physicality is a must. to each his own and all, but that sounds kinda' like exploitation of the rules. Yes you can reflex save. However you have effective dex 0 while helpless, so a -5 dex mod. Even a rogue 5 will have a negative ref save under those conditions. Also note that Evasion does not work while helpless. So yes, the Rogue 20 has a +7 ref save while helpless, but still takes half on a successful save, full on a failed save. Some of that is luck.
1 ton ghost 08-31-07, 02:54 PM	i guess that makes sense though the logic is baffling w/ minimal Dex and all. i know you're always supposed to have an "out", it just stretches the imagination to such an extent... that brings up the FORT debate w/ undead. most ppl assume you never have to make MOST Fort saves given lack of Con and all. they do rarely; when you are stuck by a Disintegrate, your necropolitan is probably going to meet final death so to speak. you still get your Fort, just no Con to back it up. your argument is under similar pretext, it's just the delivery is a far more abstract. honestly, i didn't think you'd get a Reflex save when you can't move at all and especially if you aren't even conscious/can't move. i was under the impression you couldn't if severely hampered, you know, like being helpless...just seems daft. a DM in a past game ruled no Reflex under much less arduous circumstances and his argument was sound enough, we didn't feel like whining so we moved on. and no, we didn't look for a new DM, we played through and didn't take our toys home like kids...
Istaran 08-31-07, 03:10 PM	My personal policy to state my objection, prove my point with RAW if I can very quickly, and then let the DM do whatever he wants.. I generally don't concider it worth slowing down the game for more than a minute to dispute rules. As for the reflex thing, again some of it is just luck.. there's parts of the fireball that are hotter and parts that aren't as hot.. there's parts of your body that are more susceptable and parts that you can shield those parts with, etc. Being an immobile hunk of flesh seriously impedes your ability to 'make your own luck' but it does not prohibit being lucky. And your Cloak of Resistance should still count for something as well. I will however admit that keeping your base ref save which stems from the skills developed in working your way into your class is a bit... counterintuitive at best.
1 ton ghost 08-31-07, 03:17 PM	well said.