Reserve feat Storm Bolt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reserve feat Storm Bolt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
farghal
04-10-07, 07:46 AM Hi i have a small question about the feat "storm bolt" from Complete Mage

It states that you can fire a 20 foot line of electricity that deals 1d6 per level of the highest level electricity spell i have available to cast.

Problem: It does not state anywhere if i have to make a attack and the creature that i use it against does not get a saving throw.

With other Reserve feats it is stated if you have to make a ranged, touch or ranged-touch attack. And with some of them it states that the creature get's a reflex save.

So. Can i use this and just do damage or do i have to make an attack. I couldn't find anything with the general explanation of reserve feats and nothing in the errata.

thanks in advance
Nezkrul
04-10-07, 08:01 AM there is no attack roll, its a line. there is no save, it was explicitly omitted. no, it's not broken.
farghal
04-10-07, 08:04 AM cool, well works for me :D thanks Nezkrul
Vengeblade
04-10-07, 09:07 AM I would assume its a typo and say it's a REF save for half.

The DC=10+the level of spell being used to determine damage+appropraite ability modifier.
farghal
04-10-07, 09:11 AM Well it does state that by other reserve feats (multiple times) but not with this one. And the errata states no errors with this feat
SpoonyBard
04-10-07, 11:12 AM If no save is written, it's no save. This makes sense, as it's one of only two reserve feats (the other being Winter's blast) that you can't used from safely behind the fighter.
Hsien
04-10-07, 11:45 AM And the errata states no errors with this feat

As far as i can tell, there is no official errata for Compl Mage yet.
This discussion has been posted several times and comes down to two camps everytime...in no preferred order.

1: RaW; no save and that's what it should be

2: Broken, be corrected in errata.
Main justification is that all the other damage based reserves provide saves.
Note: even the Winter's blast referenced previously does less damage
( d4s? ), and allows a save.

My group went with the first one...until we ran into a group of kobold sorcerors our DM ran, he was trying to prove a point, and that no save damage added up quick when they use hit/run/hide tactics. Our characters ghosts voted to allow a save.
Moribund
04-10-07, 02:06 PM Note that there is no errata yet for Complete Mage

Then check the Help section: Instant Answers

Almost instantly it will tell you that, yes there is supposed to be a Reflex save and that including one will be in any upcoming errata.
farghal
04-10-07, 02:24 PM Oke if a save is granted then i have one more question. There is the feat Fiery burst who has a lower prerequisite and does grant a save but there is a 5 feet radius burst (5 tiles) at a range of 30 feet instead of a line of 20 feet (4 tiles) with the same amount of damage.

why pick storm bolt if fiery burst excist and is easier to get?
Hsien
04-10-07, 02:51 PM Hey that Instant Answer search really worked, thanks. Here's the response...

Not all reserve feats allow a saving throw, but Storm Bolt should have one. Add this after the second sentence of the Benefit entry of the feat:

"A successful Reflex saves halves the damage."

This has been approved by the good folks that make the game and will be covered in an errata at some point in the future. Until then, we advise that you apply this fix to the Storm Bolt feat.

Why pick that as opposed to Fiery Burst? Like most things in the game it depends on this combination...player, dm, campaign type/setting and the other players/characters. Keep in mind that not every spell, feat or special ability is useful in every situation. There have been several heavily debated threads on the usefulness of Reserve feats, as a whole and individually.
Moribund
04-10-07, 05:03 PM Oke if a save is granted then i have one more question. There is the feat Fiery burst who has a lower prerequisite and does grant a save but there is a 5 feet radius burst (5 tiles) at a range of 30 feet instead of a line of 20 feet (4 tiles) with the same amount of damage.

why pick storm bolt if fiery burst excist and is easier to get?

A line effect is not usually contained in so few squares. Remember a line effect affects all squares that it passes through or touches. If the line runs along the edge of a square it affects up to 8 squares.
feartheinvinceblehamster
04-10-07, 05:07 PM there is no attack roll, its a line. there is no save, it was explicitly omitted. no, it's not broken.

Really, it doesn't seem like it would be. Let's say at 5th level (Assuming you can meet the requirements at that level, don't have the book.) you can cast a lightning bolt dealing 5D6 damage or a Storm Bolt dealing 3D6 damage.
farghal
04-10-07, 05:55 PM i think i must agree with the fact that a saving throw should be alowed it is true that you can not do as much damage as with a true spell. but you will be able to do it infinite times ;).

i do wonder about the fact you can cast the line to affect 8 squares? i did'nt know that. is that true?
Vegepygmy
04-10-07, 06:21 PM i do wonder about the fact you can cast the line to affect 8 squares? i did'nt know that. is that true?It is true.
Johannixx
04-10-07, 11:36 PM Really, it doesn't seem like it would be. Let's say at 5th level (Assuming you can meet the requirements at that level, don't have the book.) you can cast a lightning bolt dealing 5D6 damage or a Storm Bolt dealing 3D6 damage.

Look at it this way:

You could expend a spell slot or memorized spell to fire off a 5d6 lightning bolt, only to have the opposing Rogue simply evade it and continue on with the death-dealing nastiness.

Or, you could shoot off a 3d6 storm bolt that he can't dodge or evade, and deal the equivalent to three levels' hit points to him. You can also do this any number of times per day. If there's no Reflex save, then a Rogue can't use Evasion on it. Nerfing a class's main defensive ability is pretty potent.
Nezkrul
04-10-07, 11:55 PM calling something broken because of a single instance in which it would be very useful is not a smart thing to do. Heck, if I could cast third level spells, I'd rather ray of exhaustion the rogue, or other debilitating things, than just damage.

its also a 20' line...it doesn't get any bigger than that, ever. the most damage it can ever do is 9d6, ever. Just casting the spell will yield a much larger area affected and more damage. So what if it can be used every round all day. Wizards and Sorcerers got by just fine without reserve feats before, and no one considered them broken; but suddenly give them a way to do pitiful damage all day long and people cry broken/unbalanced?

storm bolt has lots of advantages as written, but it also has big limitations that make it balanced. if you think it needs a save, i suggest increasing the line length to 30' and lower the level of spells required to take/use it.
Steidas
04-11-07, 01:38 AM Look at it this way:

You could expend a spell slot or memorized spell to fire off a 5d6 lightning bolt, only to have the opposing Rogue simply evade it and continue on with the death-dealing nastiness.

Or, you could shoot off a 3d6 storm bolt that he can't dodge or evade, and deal the equivalent to three levels' hit points to him. You can also do this any number of times per day. If there's no Reflex save, then a Rogue can't use Evasion on it. Nerfing a class's main defensive ability is pretty potent.

It actually DOES have a saving throw! Instant Answers anyone?
Johannixx
04-11-07, 02:24 AM It actually DOES have a saving throw! Instant Answers anyone?

I know it has a saving throw. I was giving the example to show why it needed (and was given) one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
farghal 04-10-07, 07:46 AM	Hi i have a small question about the feat "storm bolt" from Complete Mage It states that you can fire a 20 foot line of electricity that deals 1d6 per level of the highest level electricity spell i have available to cast. Problem: It does not state anywhere if i have to make a attack and the creature that i use it against does not get a saving throw. With other Reserve feats it is stated if you have to make a ranged, touch or ranged-touch attack. And with some of them it states that the creature get's a reflex save. So. Can i use this and just do damage or do i have to make an attack. I couldn't find anything with the general explanation of reserve feats and nothing in the errata. thanks in advance
Nezkrul 04-10-07, 08:01 AM	there is no attack roll, its a line. there is no save, it was explicitly omitted. no, it's not broken.
farghal 04-10-07, 08:04 AM	cool, well works for me :D thanks Nezkrul
Vengeblade 04-10-07, 09:07 AM	I would assume its a typo and say it's a REF save for half. The DC=10+the level of spell being used to determine damage+appropraite ability modifier.
farghal 04-10-07, 09:11 AM	Well it does state that by other reserve feats (multiple times) but not with this one. And the errata states no errors with this feat
SpoonyBard 04-10-07, 11:12 AM	If no save is written, it's no save. This makes sense, as it's one of only two reserve feats (the other being Winter's blast) that you can't used from safely behind the fighter.
Hsien 04-10-07, 11:45 AM	And the errata states no errors with this feat As far as i can tell, there is no official errata for Compl Mage yet. This discussion has been posted several times and comes down to two camps everytime...in no preferred order. 1: RaW; no save and that's what it should be 2: Broken, be corrected in errata. Main justification is that all the other damage based reserves provide saves. Note: even the Winter's blast referenced previously does less damage ( d4s? ), and allows a save. My group went with the first one...until we ran into a group of kobold sorcerors our DM ran, he was trying to prove a point, and that no save damage added up quick when they use hit/run/hide tactics. Our characters ghosts voted to allow a save.
Moribund 04-10-07, 02:06 PM	Note that there is no errata yet for Complete Mage Then check the Help section: Instant Answers Almost instantly it will tell you that, yes there is supposed to be a Reflex save and that including one will be in any upcoming errata.
farghal 04-10-07, 02:24 PM	Oke if a save is granted then i have one more question. There is the feat Fiery burst who has a lower prerequisite and does grant a save but there is a 5 feet radius burst (5 tiles) at a range of 30 feet instead of a line of 20 feet (4 tiles) with the same amount of damage. why pick storm bolt if fiery burst excist and is easier to get?
Hsien 04-10-07, 02:51 PM	Hey that Instant Answer search really worked, thanks. Here's the response... Not all reserve feats allow a saving throw, but Storm Bolt should have one. Add this after the second sentence of the Benefit entry of the feat: "A successful Reflex saves halves the damage." This has been approved by the good folks that make the game and will be covered in an errata at some point in the future. Until then, we advise that you apply this fix to the Storm Bolt feat. Why pick that as opposed to Fiery Burst? Like most things in the game it depends on this combination...player, dm, campaign type/setting and the other players/characters. Keep in mind that not every spell, feat or special ability is useful in every situation. There have been several heavily debated threads on the usefulness of Reserve feats, as a whole and individually.
Moribund 04-10-07, 05:03 PM	Oke if a save is granted then i have one more question. There is the feat Fiery burst who has a lower prerequisite and does grant a save but there is a 5 feet radius burst (5 tiles) at a range of 30 feet instead of a line of 20 feet (4 tiles) with the same amount of damage. why pick storm bolt if fiery burst excist and is easier to get? A line effect is not usually contained in so few squares. Remember a line effect affects all squares that it passes through or touches. If the line runs along the edge of a square it affects up to 8 squares.
feartheinvinceblehamster 04-10-07, 05:07 PM	there is no attack roll, its a line. there is no save, it was explicitly omitted. no, it's not broken. Really, it doesn't seem like it would be. Let's say at 5th level (Assuming you can meet the requirements at that level, don't have the book.) you can cast a lightning bolt dealing 5D6 damage or a Storm Bolt dealing 3D6 damage.
farghal 04-10-07, 05:55 PM	i think i must agree with the fact that a saving throw should be alowed it is true that you can not do as much damage as with a true spell. but you will be able to do it infinite times ;). i do wonder about the fact you can cast the line to affect 8 squares? i did'nt know that. is that true?
Vegepygmy 04-10-07, 06:21 PM	i do wonder about the fact you can cast the line to affect 8 squares? i did'nt know that. is that true?It is true.
Johannixx 04-10-07, 11:36 PM	Really, it doesn't seem like it would be. Let's say at 5th level (Assuming you can meet the requirements at that level, don't have the book.) you can cast a lightning bolt dealing 5D6 damage or a Storm Bolt dealing 3D6 damage. Look at it this way: You could expend a spell slot or memorized spell to fire off a 5d6 lightning bolt, only to have the opposing Rogue simply evade it and continue on with the death-dealing nastiness. Or, you could shoot off a 3d6 storm bolt that he can't dodge or evade, and deal the equivalent to three levels' hit points to him. You can also do this any number of times per day. If there's no Reflex save, then a Rogue can't use Evasion on it. Nerfing a class's main defensive ability is pretty potent.
Nezkrul 04-10-07, 11:55 PM	calling something broken because of a single instance in which it would be very useful is not a smart thing to do. Heck, if I could cast third level spells, I'd rather ray of exhaustion the rogue, or other debilitating things, than just damage. its also a 20' line...it doesn't get any bigger than that, ever. the most damage it can ever do is 9d6, ever. Just casting the spell will yield a much larger area affected and more damage. So what if it can be used every round all day. Wizards and Sorcerers got by just fine without reserve feats before, and no one considered them broken; but suddenly give them a way to do pitiful damage all day long and people cry broken/unbalanced? storm bolt has lots of advantages as written, but it also has big limitations that make it balanced. if you think it needs a save, i suggest increasing the line length to 30' and lower the level of spells required to take/use it.
Steidas 04-11-07, 01:38 AM	Look at it this way: You could expend a spell slot or memorized spell to fire off a 5d6 lightning bolt, only to have the opposing Rogue simply evade it and continue on with the death-dealing nastiness. Or, you could shoot off a 3d6 storm bolt that he can't dodge or evade, and deal the equivalent to three levels' hit points to him. You can also do this any number of times per day. If there's no Reflex save, then a Rogue can't use Evasion on it. Nerfing a class's main defensive ability is pretty potent. It actually DOES have a saving throw! Instant Answers anyone?
Johannixx 04-11-07, 02:24 AM	It actually DOES have a saving throw! Instant Answers anyone? I know it has a saving throw. I was giving the example to show why it needed (and was given) one.