Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rjsilverthorn 02-16-08, 03:59 PM	OK, there is an answer in the FAQ that seems to indicate that spells prepared with Heighten Spell metamagic count at their higher level in regards to a Reserve Feat. The reserve feats (Complete Mage) allow you to use their ability as long as you have a spell of a particular type and minimum level prepared. So if I have a maximized fireball prepared, does that mean the Fiery Burst feat deals 6d6 damage since it is now in a 6th-level spell slot? No. Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level). The reserve feats care about the spell’s actual level, not the spell slot it occupies. Now this seems perfectly logical and straight forward for a Wizard that actually prepares spells ahead of time, but its a little less clear when applied to Sorcerers. Applying the same logic for a Sorcerer would mean that, as long as they had Heighten Spell, any qualifying spell they know would count as the highest level slot they had available. Since this doesn't seem to be addressed specifically in the rules or the FAQ, (or in another question on the boards that I could find) I'm curious how other groups would rule on this.
justicar347 02-16-08, 04:17 PM	This is just one of those things that a sorcerer misses out on. Because a sorcerer's spells are not altered by a metamagic feat until he casts them, he cannot use Highten spell to increase the level of a spell for the purpose of Reserve feats. However, he could take the Arcane Preperation feat which would let him prepare spells ahead of time, and thus add metamagic feats, to use Highten Spell for the purpose of reserve feats. Just read the PH section on spell casting and the sorcerer class features and it all becomes clear. Sorry, nice try. :weep:
dman11235 02-16-08, 04:36 PM	justicar is right. Though I wouldn't concider it frugal use of your spell slots to have a heightened spell just so you could use a reserve feat.
StevenO 02-16-08, 06:54 PM	Given how many people consider the Sorcerer "underpowered" I would definitely consider it although I'll agree with the others that the RAW of Sorcerer/Heighten doesn't increase a spell's level until it is actually cast. A compromise may be to require the Sorcerer actually have a known spell that fills the requirement naturally but let the level based features of the feat utilize the highest available spell level. For example I wouldn't let Acid Splatter work even with a Lesser Acid Orb even if the character had Heighten but if they have Acid Arrow which would fill the 2nd level acid spell then I'd let the damage be based on the maximum spell level available. Even if the DM doesn't allow Heighten help the Sorcerer still has a slightly easier time with Reserve Feats if only because they don't have to dedicate a spell slot to "hold" the spell to make the feat work.
Red_Wizard 02-17-08, 07:34 PM	Please point me towards the rules stating that a sorcerers spell is not counted as a heightened spell until it is cast. As far as I know, the Sorcerers spell slots can be anything they want until cast, at which point it is used. The only time it would cease being possible was if there were no slots to heighten the spell to. If it were otherwise, then the Sorcerer should in theory not be able to use any reserve feats, as none of his slots would be anything until cast. As far as I can tell this is one of the -- many-- advantages the Sorcerer has over the wizard. Reserve feats and Sorcs were IMO built for one another. -RW
dman11235 02-17-08, 10:04 PM	Sorcerers apply metamagic as they cast. No spell has MM until it is cast for a sorcerer unless they take Arcane Preparation and prepare one that way. Also, the feats say something to the effect of the highest level spell you can cast, not the highest level spell slot that can cast a spell.
Red_Wizard 02-17-08, 10:18 PM	That feat interpretation is simply that. An interpretation. It is for the highest level of the specific spell type capable of being cast. And heighten spell makes the spell a higher level. Additionally, a sorcerers slots are nothing until they cast them. They may know 3 spells of a single level, and perhaps have 7 available spells/ day, but those 7 "slots" are effectively raw energy until shaped. So, if the verdict is a metamagiced spell isn't what it is until it's cast, then by that same ruling, neither are any of the sorcerers spells, and thus they could never qualify for the Reserve feats. -RW
dman11235 02-17-08, 10:27 PM	The reserve feat say that if you have a spell available to cast. The reserve feat works for the spell known, not the slot, at least as far as Sorc go.
rjsilverthorn 02-17-08, 10:43 PM	Yeah, reserve feats for sorcerers are driven off knowing a spell of the appropriate type and level and having a slot of sufficient level to cast it. I should clarify that this wasn't something I was actually trying to do, I've just spent the last three weeks pouring over sourcebooks and it was a question that stuck in my head somewhere along the way. Given the only sorcerer I'm playing currently is mainly a buffer, she wouldn't benefit from heighten spell normally and I certainly wouldn't take it just to power a reserve feat even if it did/does work. Especially since most of my spells that qualify are force and that has one of the weaker reserve feats. d4 damage requiring a ranged attack roll, I'll pass.
Red_Wizard 02-17-08, 10:44 PM	But it also states they are effected by the highest level spell known of the type in question. Thus a Meteor Swarm would take the place of a Fireball for the damage of Fiery Burst. At least until your 9th's ran out. Also, as per the FAQ it states that the heighten spell is one exception to the rule in which it does act as a spell of higher level known. So one might infer from this combination that the Sorcerer does in fact benefit from the coupling of the two. -RW
Jaxgaret 02-17-08, 11:08 PM	Ah, this old argument. I agree with Red Wizard that it should work with Sorcerers like that, and rule thusly in my campaigns, but IIRC from the old debates there is some kind of RAW on this that does preclude it working.
dman11235 02-17-08, 11:58 PM	But once you run out of 9th level slots you can no longer cast Meteor Swarm. Okay, I can totally see your angle, but I think that it is this way. I don't see much overpowering or even much of a power boost at all for your way of working this, so either way is fine.
Hsien 02-18-08, 09:20 AM	My group is firmly in the not allowed section for this debate Mainly because the Socr advantage when it cane to Reserve feats already. However we played with a houserule that worked out ok for awhile Allow Sorc to appy Heighten as part of a full round action of casting. Similar to how Sorc normally applies MM feats to a spell. Unfortunately that led to the players of the Sorc characters trying to apply other MM feats the same way, so we ended up just not allowing any.
Merestil Haye 02-18-08, 10:02 AM	The relevant rule is on page 37 of Complete Mage. The spontaneous caster must know the spell and have a spell of that level or higher. Since the spell is known at the level it appears on the character's class spell list and not at the level the spell will be cast at (since that is unknowable except at the time of casting) the spell will be treated as if it were the base level. The same page is also quite explicit that Reserve feats function differently for spontaneous casters and preparing casters.
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 11:42 AM	Again an interpretation of the rules. It is very simple IMO. You either know something, or you do not. The Sorcerer either knows the Ability, as they have both feat and spell. Or, you are implying Sorcerers cast accidentally. A Sorcerers slots can be ANYTHING he is capable of casting of that level or lower. A Metamagiced spell is essentially a new spell of the appropriate level. Thus for the purposes of reserve feats, it would count. No where I have read, nor has been provided for me to read, does it explicitly state that the heighten spell is not treated as a spell until cast. Not under reserve feats, not in the FAQ, not in the PHB, and as no one has provided an alternate source, nowhere in these boards. You are welcome to rule this in your own game, based on your personal opinion, but thus far I do not believe it is reflected in any manner by the rules. -RW
wonlee76 02-18-08, 12:04 PM	Well, there's always the Arcane Preparation Feat so that a sorceror can "prepare" a spell slot with a metamagic'd spell. The feat isn't that popular since Rapid Metamagic and other feats, abilities, optional class abilities have popped up that lets a sorceror apply metamagic to spells without an increase in casting time but in this limit circumstance, it seems to be the best solution around reserve feats (for those DM's that interpret spontaneous casters don't get the benefit of heighten on the "fly" for reserve feat purposes).
Hsien 02-18-08, 12:15 PM	Unfortunatley the same could be said for that arguement; it is simply an interpretation and is not explicitly stated in the rules, FAQ etc.. The "rules" indicate clearly that Spontaneous Casters, such as Sorc, must apply MM feats on the spot as they are not in a Metamagic form in advance. That also takes extra time. Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) As the Reserve feats do not indicate an allowance for MM feats being applied spontaneously, there are only a few options per RAW or RAI (imo) 1: Cannot apply MM feats to Reserve feats. Thius is the most commonly accepted version as it satisfies RAW/RAI. Previous threads about this same topic have shown general concensus of this RAW guidance. 2: Apply Heighten to Reserve, but it takes extra time just like when a Sorc applies MM to a spell. This worked ok for my group, until they tried to apply other MM feats similarly. Applying Heighten MM to reserve freely does not satisfy Reserve feat RAW, not does it satisfy RAI because it indicates that it is applied faster then if actually casting the spell it would be derived from.
dman11235 02-18-08, 12:26 PM	No where I have read, nor has been provided for me to read, does it explicitly state that the heighten spell is not treated as a spell until cast. Not under reserve feats, not in the FAQ, not in the PHB, and as no one has provided an alternate source, nowhere in these boards. That right there is not a proof or piece of evidence. It would be if you could provide a place where it said that MM feats DO count before they were cast. It's like saying that nowhere does it say that I can't fly, therefore I can. It does work differently for spontaneous casters Red.
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 03:10 PM	Unfortunately for you that is not a valid counter argument. The rules do indeed dictate that only things with a fly speed can fly, and only those with a swim or burrow speed can swim and burrow. My defense is based off of what the rules say. No interpretation needed. MM spells are spells that have been altered to become something entirely different. They are virtually new spells in that the energy used to to create them has been altered from it's base form. Whether I heighten a fireball, or summon a monster the time would be the same. 1 full round. Thus the argument that just because MM takes longer to cast is a moot point. Additionally, with the use of Rapid Metamagic, it would only take me a standard action to cast Metamagiced spells, rather than the prior full round, thus I would fall outside of your ruling. Additionally, as I have said, and has been ignored, a Sorcerers slots are nothing until he casts. Thus, by the ruling that a MM spell is nothing until it is cast, one must also assume all other slots are nothing until cast. If this then is the case, the Sorcerer can NEVER use ANY reserve feats, as he doesn't technically have the spells available. However, this line of reasoning is torn apart by the very fact that CM states that spontaneous casters, such as the SORCERER and Bard, can indeed take these feats. So, if this then is the RAW, one must assume that should I claim 1 use is a Heightened spell, it is indeed a Heightened spell. As you can see, I am very much backing my point with the RAW. Sorry if this bothers some people. Your argument however is that the Sorcerer simply can't do as the rules suggest because you say so. By that logic, I say that I have a gaze attack that instantly kills anything with less than a DvR 1,000,000. I won't check the rules to prove this point, I'll simply state it is such, and ignore anything you say. Seems kind of silly huh? I am looking to be proved wrong, but so far all I am getting is the opinion that it doesn't work just because. Give me concrete proof that it doesn't, and I'll back you 100%. In the mean time, if you don't want it in your home campaign fine. Last time I checked we weren't arguing for your home campaigns to use the rules. However trying to defend your position based on House rules doesn't exactly work here. -RW
Hsien 02-18-08, 03:58 PM	I can see your interpretation, however that is an interpretation not supported by RAW, or at least the justification for that conclusion is not clear. 1a: Wiz prepares a maximized, enpowered Fireball. It's still considered a 3rd level spell for Reserve feat purposes, as the spells base level doesn't actually change. It's just cast at a higher slot due to MM. 1b: Sorc, has Fireball on spell list. Reserve feat will draw from that as long as there is a 3rd level spell slot available, per RAW. 2a: Wiz's prepare a Heightened Fireball and the spell is considered the new level adjusted by the MM feat. The Reserve feat draws from the new "effective" spell level from the prepared spell. Per FAQ. 2b: Sorc, has Fireball on spell list. At time of casting can make it a Heightened Fireball by spending extra time ( assuming no other modifiers) and using that higher spell slot. at the time of casting Both situations indicate that Wiz and Sorc both "know" the fireball spell and both "know" the Heighten MM feat. However neither one "knows" a spell called "Heighten Fireball" and it is that standpoint that concludes why it doesn't work for Sorc. Wiz can create the effect by preparing the spell as a Heightened version. the Sorc has no such alternative except at the point of casting. If still unconvinced, that's fine. However the same argument applies in that there has been no evidence to support that it does work for Sorc in RAW, FAQ etc...nor has there been a logical justification provided. You are correct, I clearly indicated the allowance for Heighten to affect a reserve feat was a houserule, because that is exactly what it is since it is not supported by RAW. I added that info just to express that tested it out and we found it was functional with that extra time restriction; and since a comparison argument could be associated to that process. Rapid metamagic applies to spells, which reserve feats are not. Therefore even though a Sorc could use MM as a Standard action with that feat, there is no apparent intrinsic impact upon Reserve feats by RAW.
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 04:19 PM	We are evidently still seeing things very differently. A Wizard Prepares his spell with MetaMagic, and a Sorc calls one of his slots a MetaMagiced spell. How you can't see this being supported by RAW I don't know, but convincing one another will evidently not happen. So, for the sake of argument, some people feel free to interpret that it doesn't work, others feel free to play that it does. In the end, only the OP's final opinion matters here, as convincing one another wasn't this threads intent. -RW
dman11235 02-18-08, 04:23 PM	But until it is cast, that slot isn't MM'd. Look, Red, read the section about reserve feats. it talks about prepared and spontaneous as using them in different ways.
Hsien 02-18-08, 04:36 PM	Actually I thought it was more of debating what points the conclusions are drawn from, which could influence the OP opinion. Take it easy.
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 04:49 PM	Isn't it more likely that we chase the OP away? Evidently there is a problem with the rules that isn't/ can't be resolved here by us. I read it one way, you read it another, and the OP has his answer. Even if that answer only leaves him wondering which way to play. And don't worry about me taking it easy, unlike some I don't take most of this very seriously. ;) -RW
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 04:51 PM	But until it is cast, that slot isn't MM'd. Look, Red, read the section about reserve feats. it talks about prepared and spontaneous as using them in different ways. I did. Again, and Again, and Again just to be sure. I read it long before ever making my first post, and then again while making that first post. If anything in it suggested that this couldn't be done, I'd not be arguing the point at all. ;) -RW
war_thog 02-18-08, 07:13 PM	Well do you believe that spellthieves can steal heightened fireballs from sorcerors who have the fireball spell and the heighten spell feat? You do after all have to pick the exact name of the spell that you choose. A fireball and a heightened fireball arent interchangable. To my knowledge *dont have books on me* you cant. These things work off the same principle and should follow the same ruling.
Red_Wizard 02-18-08, 09:54 PM	Well I will disprove part of what you said, however the paragraph this was taken from also proves me wrong, so thank you. A spellthief can't apply Metamagic feats, or any other effects to the stolen spell, unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. Thus in part, you were incorrect, as the Spell thief can in fact steal a MM spell. However, at the end, the text states... ...A spellthief couldn't steal an empowered magic missile from a sorcerer, since the Sorcerer applies metamagic effects upon casting, and thus has no prepared empowered magic missile spell. So there you have it. A rule was found, and I admit I was wrong. :) -RW