Retraining feats+exotic weapon proficiency question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Retraining feats+exotic weapon proficiency question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koro76
03-09-07, 06:59 PM Can someone reference me to the wizards book that contains the rules for forgetting and re-training feats?

Also, for exotic weapons that aren't held, does the proficiency mean that you can hold small objects (a coin, rolled up paper, small flask) without an attack penalty? i would also like reasoning on this question.
Wraithwin
03-09-07, 07:23 PM Alright, let's take this in segments;

"Can someone reference... ...re-training feats?"
Player's Handbook 2, though the specific page eludes me.

"As for exotic weapons that aren't held.."
I'm pretty sure that ANYTHING that can be taken with "Exotic Weapon Proficiency", more-so anything labeled as a weapon, must be held regardless of anything. Those things you mentioned (Coin, Paper, Flask) aren't Exotic Weapons, they're Improvised Weapons.

"I would also like reasoning on this question"
Not sure I can provide words for you. :P (just joking around)

Definition, Exotic Weapon: Weapon (emphasis) that is strange or unusual, foreign or difficult to utilize. Something that doesn't fall into the Simple or Martial categories, and that your class is not generally trained with, but was clearly made with intention to be used as a weapon.

Definition, Improvised Weapon: Any object that was not created to be used as, and is clearly not intended to be, a weapon. (Coins, cups, chairs, horse-troughs, etc)

Regardless of the category it falls in, anything qualified as a Weapon requires a limb to use. All the things you named conceivably must be thrown, as simply setting a coin on a table will not cause damage to the Wizard even adjacent to it. If you were using some strange ability or power such as Telekinesis, then those things generally tell you what sort of damage they're capable of inflicting by use of the power. At that point though it's not a matter of what sort of damage the object can do, but rather how hard said force can propel it.

I think there are feats that improve your ability with Improvised Weapons, and in fact the "Peasant Hero" (can't remember where from) and I think the "Drunken Master" PrC both make heavy use of Improv Weapons, if that's what you're going for.
Koro76
03-09-07, 08:15 PM my question does not in fact regaurd improvised weapons. it is in regaurds to weapons that are not actually held. (sword blades attached to bracers in this scneario) and holding smaller items while attacking using such a weapon.
Wraithwin
03-09-07, 09:03 PM That is still, by definition provided by the game itself, wielded or held. I believe the description of the Locked Gauntlet or similar items explain it, but I might be wrong.

I still stand by my above, but it might help if you explained further. Just listing those types without describing their intended use, will fall back to what I've said. :P

If you welded coins to a gauntlet and sharpened them, it'd be a really odd way of essentially making a Spiked Gauntlet that did slashing damage - though there's no ruling specifically for using it. Even then, it might be treated as an Exotic Weapon if your DM is feeling harsh. bolting a few flasks on the outside of a normal gauntlet wouldn't give it any benefit; it'd still do bludgeoning damage, and possibly destroy the flasks on impact.

On that note, it doesn't matter if it's literally in your hand or not. A spiked gauntlet isn't IN your hand, but it's still considered a weapon, because it was made to be one. Let's go more drastic - Arms and Equipment guide (it might've been remade, but I don't know where): The "Stump Knife". Tied into/on a nub where a portion of an arm or leg used to be, does damage equal to a dagger or shortsword (because that's what's used to make them), and takes an exotic proficiency.

A gold coin is an improvised weapon, no question, because it's current form was not made to be a weapon. If you sharpened them to use like throwing discs or something, then they'd probably be exotic... because they have been made INTO a weapon, and are nolonger the original object. Same way dropping a tree on a person doesn't take proficiency but is still considered an improvised attack, yet a greatclub made from it's branches is a martial weapon.

You see... regardless of whatever use you want to put them to, the game itself still defines them as improvised weapons because they are not, in fact, weapons to begin with - and that's all the game mechanics themselves care about. I'd rather they be improvised anyways so I could take the feat to make the penalty either -2 for using them, instead of needing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for each contraption I come up with. The swordblade on a guantlet is still treated as being weilded, and takes exotic because it's weilded in an odd fashion - but the sword blade was a weapon to begin with, unlike a flask or coin.

On your topic of Retraining: Sure you could theoretically re-train for whatever you came up with, but you might want to read just how LONG it takes to retrain. It's no quick process, I tell you! Plan to spend a lot of time your group would rather spend elsewhere doing other things. LOL

Just remember; This is simply how the books decide what it is. This is what the DMG and/or PHB say they are. In the end, it's really up to your DM on how to handle it. Also, you asked for scrutiny. :)
Wraithwin
03-09-07, 09:52 PM Here, I offer a solution that could well be more effective for you. :)

Let us assume for sake of arguement, that you're some race that gets to pick it's favored class, or that you plan to actually do your race's favored class (insert laughter).

Assume Human, as it's really the standard;
1st level: Warblade 1, Exotic Prooficiency (anything) x2.
2nd level+: Whatever class you plan on doing to begin with.

Warblade's ability lets you retrain your Exotic feat to a specific weapon after only 1 hour of practice with it, instead of the weeks normal retraining usually takes. Have a pack full of really friggin weird weapons you've custom made, spend two hours and attune to two of them. :) Get tired of those two? Change one or both - it just takes 1 hour of practice with each.

Also, further on the above: You can choose to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for, well, anything. Non-Proficient weapons and Improvised Weapons alike, normally give a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Exotic proficiency cans that -4 regardless of what you take it for. So... Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Teacup) would let you throw them with ease and without penalty. :) You'd break a lot of teacups, but if you couple that with sneak-attack... LOL
Koro76
03-10-07, 01:27 AM i think you may be mistaking my question, so i guess ill have to be quite literal.

I am attaching the blades of swords to bracers. i understand that i need an exotic weapon proficiency to wield said weapons without penalty. This does not pertain to my question.

My question is, that since my weapon is not in my hand, but attached to my bracers, am i able to hold small objects in my hands while fighting with the weapons attached to my bracers without a penalty to my attack rolls?

unfortunately taking a level in warblade is out of the question for retraining feats, as i am already a catfolk ninja 7th, shadowdancer 9th, assassin 1st. CR 18.

i do have some time to re-train feats because we are currently between campaigns, in that time between campaigns my character has gained 2 levels, though i wont go into the entire story behind the time period. i dont know exactly how long the time gap between campaigns is, as my DM hasnt gotten back to me yet on the subject. though based on the tasks accomplished, im guessing 1-2 years.
Wraithwin
03-10-07, 03:23 PM ...well then. LOL

That makes the answer far easier to give when worded like that. :)

Yes, you could hold an object in the hand, provided the weapon/whatever still left your hand free to use. A locked gauntlent prevents you from using your hand, but a SHIELD gauntlent leaves your hand free because it's attached right to the gauntlet itself (for a more direct example of the task you're trying to achieve).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koro76 03-09-07, 06:59 PM	Can someone reference me to the wizards book that contains the rules for forgetting and re-training feats? Also, for exotic weapons that aren't held, does the proficiency mean that you can hold small objects (a coin, rolled up paper, small flask) without an attack penalty? i would also like reasoning on this question.
Wraithwin 03-09-07, 07:23 PM	Alright, let's take this in segments; "Can someone reference... ...re-training feats?" Player's Handbook 2, though the specific page eludes me. "As for exotic weapons that aren't held.." I'm pretty sure that ANYTHING that can be taken with "Exotic Weapon Proficiency", more-so anything labeled as a weapon, must be held regardless of anything. Those things you mentioned (Coin, Paper, Flask) aren't Exotic Weapons, they're Improvised Weapons. "I would also like reasoning on this question" Not sure I can provide words for you. :P (just joking around) Definition, Exotic Weapon: Weapon (emphasis) that is strange or unusual, foreign or difficult to utilize. Something that doesn't fall into the Simple or Martial categories, and that your class is not generally trained with, but was clearly made with intention to be used as a weapon. Definition, Improvised Weapon: Any object that was not created to be used as, and is clearly not intended to be, a weapon. (Coins, cups, chairs, horse-troughs, etc) Regardless of the category it falls in, anything qualified as a Weapon requires a limb to use. All the things you named conceivably must be thrown, as simply setting a coin on a table will not cause damage to the Wizard even adjacent to it. If you were using some strange ability or power such as Telekinesis, then those things generally tell you what sort of damage they're capable of inflicting by use of the power. At that point though it's not a matter of what sort of damage the object can do, but rather how hard said force can propel it. I think there are feats that improve your ability with Improvised Weapons, and in fact the "Peasant Hero" (can't remember where from) and I think the "Drunken Master" PrC both make heavy use of Improv Weapons, if that's what you're going for.
Koro76 03-09-07, 08:15 PM	my question does not in fact regaurd improvised weapons. it is in regaurds to weapons that are not actually held. (sword blades attached to bracers in this scneario) and holding smaller items while attacking using such a weapon.
Wraithwin 03-09-07, 09:03 PM	That is still, by definition provided by the game itself, wielded or held. I believe the description of the Locked Gauntlet or similar items explain it, but I might be wrong. I still stand by my above, but it might help if you explained further. Just listing those types without describing their intended use, will fall back to what I've said. :P If you welded coins to a gauntlet and sharpened them, it'd be a really odd way of essentially making a Spiked Gauntlet that did slashing damage - though there's no ruling specifically for using it. Even then, it might be treated as an Exotic Weapon if your DM is feeling harsh. bolting a few flasks on the outside of a normal gauntlet wouldn't give it any benefit; it'd still do bludgeoning damage, and possibly destroy the flasks on impact. On that note, it doesn't matter if it's literally in your hand or not. A spiked gauntlet isn't IN your hand, but it's still considered a weapon, because it was made to be one. Let's go more drastic - Arms and Equipment guide (it might've been remade, but I don't know where): The "Stump Knife". Tied into/on a nub where a portion of an arm or leg used to be, does damage equal to a dagger or shortsword (because that's what's used to make them), and takes an exotic proficiency. A gold coin is an improvised weapon, no question, because it's current form was not made to be a weapon. If you sharpened them to use like throwing discs or something, then they'd probably be exotic... because they have been made INTO a weapon, and are nolonger the original object. Same way dropping a tree on a person doesn't take proficiency but is still considered an improvised attack, yet a greatclub made from it's branches is a martial weapon. You see... regardless of whatever use you want to put them to, the game itself still defines them as improvised weapons because they are not, in fact, weapons to begin with - and that's all the game mechanics themselves care about. I'd rather they be improvised anyways so I could take the feat to make the penalty either -2 for using them, instead of needing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for each contraption I come up with. The swordblade on a guantlet is still treated as being weilded, and takes exotic because it's weilded in an odd fashion - but the sword blade was a weapon to begin with, unlike a flask or coin. On your topic of Retraining: Sure you could theoretically re-train for whatever you came up with, but you might want to read just how LONG it takes to retrain. It's no quick process, I tell you! Plan to spend a lot of time your group would rather spend elsewhere doing other things. LOL Just remember; This is simply how the books decide what it is. This is what the DMG and/or PHB say they are. In the end, it's really up to your DM on how to handle it. Also, you asked for scrutiny. :)
Wraithwin 03-09-07, 09:52 PM	Here, I offer a solution that could well be more effective for you. :) Let us assume for sake of arguement, that you're some race that gets to pick it's favored class, or that you plan to actually do your race's favored class (insert laughter). Assume Human, as it's really the standard; 1st level: Warblade 1, Exotic Prooficiency (anything) x2. 2nd level+: Whatever class you plan on doing to begin with. Warblade's ability lets you retrain your Exotic feat to a specific weapon after only 1 hour of practice with it, instead of the weeks normal retraining usually takes. Have a pack full of really friggin weird weapons you've custom made, spend two hours and attune to two of them. :) Get tired of those two? Change one or both - it just takes 1 hour of practice with each. Also, further on the above: You can choose to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat for, well, anything. Non-Proficient weapons and Improvised Weapons alike, normally give a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Exotic proficiency cans that -4 regardless of what you take it for. So... Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Teacup) would let you throw them with ease and without penalty. :) You'd break a lot of teacups, but if you couple that with sneak-attack... LOL
Koro76 03-10-07, 01:27 AM	i think you may be mistaking my question, so i guess ill have to be quite literal. I am attaching the blades of swords to bracers. i understand that i need an exotic weapon proficiency to wield said weapons without penalty. This does not pertain to my question. My question is, that since my weapon is not in my hand, but attached to my bracers, am i able to hold small objects in my hands while fighting with the weapons attached to my bracers without a penalty to my attack rolls? unfortunately taking a level in warblade is out of the question for retraining feats, as i am already a catfolk ninja 7th, shadowdancer 9th, assassin 1st. CR 18. i do have some time to re-train feats because we are currently between campaigns, in that time between campaigns my character has gained 2 levels, though i wont go into the entire story behind the time period. i dont know exactly how long the time gap between campaigns is, as my DM hasnt gotten back to me yet on the subject. though based on the tasks accomplished, im guessing 1-2 years.
Wraithwin 03-10-07, 03:23 PM	...well then. LOL That makes the answer far easier to give when worded like that. :) Yes, you could hold an object in the hand, provided the weapon/whatever still left your hand free to use. A locked gauntlent prevents you from using your hand, but a SHIELD gauntlent leaves your hand free because it's attached right to the gauntlet itself (for a more direct example of the task you're trying to achieve).