'Retraining' for retroactive skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

'Retraining' for retroactive skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Uratoh
10-01-07, 04:21 PM This isn't a 'should I allow it', more a 'I'm gonna allow it, now what's 'fair'?

This is basically, say at 1st lv your int is 13. at 4th lv, you make it a 14. My thought is you can retrain to 'reassign' the 6 skill points you would have gotten had your int been 14 from lv 1...thoughts?
Operation_Shoestring
10-01-07, 04:39 PM This isn't a 'should I allow it', more a 'I'm gonna allow it, now what's 'fair'?

This is basically, say at 1st lv your int is 13. at 4th lv, you make it a 14. My thought is you can retrain to 'reassign' the 6 skill points you would have gotten had your int been 14 from lv 1...thoughts?

Could be a house rule, though it would give benefit WIZ far more than any other class.

You should put a cap on retraining. No more than 1-3 gains in INT should allow retraining. Anything more and you'll have high level wizards skill monkeys. Which could be a good thing if you want to play a rouge-less game but is otherwise unfair to bards and rogues.

There also needs to be a cost for re-training. I suggest charging a small amount of EXP for each skill point gained this way.
Uratoh
10-01-07, 05:32 PM There also needs to be a cost for re-training. I suggest charging a small amount of EXP for each skill point gained this way.

There is a cost, I'm using the Retraining rules from the PHB2 as a base, just treating the 'nonexistant' skill points as skills to be retrained.
Salla
10-01-07, 06:36 PM I can't see any real reason why not to grant those skill points ... you still won't really have a 'wizard skill monkey' because they lack the class skills to really show off like rogues or scouts do.
Kouk
10-01-07, 10:48 PM I know you didn't ask for opinions, but I would not allow this because it is specifically called out as something that is not allowed in the core rules.

I haven't read the PHB2 retraining chapter in a while, this is all prefaced with "If I recall correctly"

Retraining is basically allowing the character to re-spend the skillpoints as if he had not made certain choices, it is not the same as gaining skill points retroactively.

BUT:
If you used a Point Buy system, or the character wanted to rearrange his ability scores from first level in such a way that he would then have actually had a higher Int at first level then he could retrain in that fashion and have more skill points, but not just by increasing Intelligence in the future.

For example, if a Human started a character with putting a 13 into his Intelligence, and a 14 into his Dexterity, he could "retrain" putting the 14 into Int to get more skill points and the 13 into Dex and then increase the Dex up to 14 at a later point. This is a bit cheesy but I think that is allowed for retraining.

There probably would not be a huge game impact by allowing retroactive skill points, but it would be an impact.
Pechvarry
10-02-07, 09:46 AM But while speaking opinions, it's silly that a level 11 fighter goes to level 12, gets his CON boosted to 14, and gets 12 extra HP instead of 1. It's a double standard.

And in another context: You have 2 Rangers. Both are level 8. Both have 12 INT. Both are Human. One started with 12, the other started with 10 and put both stat boosts into INT. Their being level 8 portrays their total experience. So, why should one have more skill points than the other? They shouldn't.

To combat exploitation:
1) be a DM. You know, that means watch and moderate what your players do.
2) simply cap it at 18. Int stat over 18 cannot give retroactive skill points.

my 2 cp.
Sunblast
10-02-07, 10:13 AM But while speaking opinions, it's silly that a level 11 fighter goes to level 12, gets his CON boosted to 14, and gets 12 extra HP instead of 1. It's a double standard.

But that one is a ton easier. For every +1 your con modifier goes up, raise your HP by 2*level. This makes for pretty stat changing.

Now, think about intelligence. Say I don a headband of intellect for a little while. Do I really want to go through and get my skill points?
Just think of the massive headaches caused by the intelligence version of the barbarian's rage. O_O
Pechvarry
10-02-07, 10:52 AM Good point. We never count INT items for skill points, though. And I suppose that, in itself is sort of a double standard since we do let CON items give HP. But, as you said, that's much easier to solve. Also, it's true that 12 Skill points can do a lot more for you than 12 HP. So you have to draw the line somewhere; I just try to move the line up some.

In general, I just cannot stand the idea of having 2 equal characters being unequal (see the Ranger example above). Their being level 8 specifies their equal quantities of gathered knowledge. For one to be under the other for an arbitrary, game rules reason, is just silly.
BW0222
10-02-07, 11:18 AM Uratoh,

Skill points tend to cause ranks to grow slowly. It is fairly difficult under the current system to suddenly drop 12+ skill points into a single skill. A rogue might get 10 skill points at one level, but typically keeps many skills maxed out. It would be rare to drop all 10 skill points into a new skill and become an instant expert.

I don't think I'd like having a 12th-level character suddenly gain an extra 15 skill points (in addition to his normal 3) and suddenly become an instant expert in a new skill. For example, an 11th-level cleric have ranks in concentration, knowledge (religion), and a few others, suddenly gains 18 skill points in stead of this normal 3. He goes from 0 ranks to 15 ranks in diplomacy.
Kouk
10-02-07, 02:57 PM Good point. We never count INT items for skill points, though. And I suppose that, in itself is sort of a double standard since we do let CON items give HP. But, as you said, that's much easier to solve. Also, it's true that 12 Skill points can do a lot more for you than 12 HP. So you have to draw the line somewhere; I just try to move the line up some.

In general, I just cannot stand the idea of having 2 equal characters being unequal (see the Ranger example above). Their being level 8 specifies their equal quantities of gathered knowledge. For one to be under the other for an arbitrary, game rules reason, is just silly.

Their characters may be the same class, but they are not the same character (and probably not identical twins).

Do those Rangers all have the same feats? Same Companion? Same skills selection? Same everything else?

What's the problem with a different number of Skill Points that one character got by investing more in his Intelligence at level 1 while the other guy was off wrestling bears or whatever? They grew up differently.

I think the "roleplaying" reasoning for not getting retroactive skillpoints is because the 4x skill points represents your experience and learning from childhood (default characters always start at least as "young adults" for their race), and typically covers your "base" of skills that you will probably keep training for the rest of your career. It doesn't represent your pure brainpower, or items that boost INT would also increase your skill ranks available instead of just boosting a few skills.

The game seems to believe that despite how your body may change, your brain is fundamentally the same from childhood -- you can't implant memories after the fact (without a plot device).

But like I said earlier, the impact would be negligible because any given character can only raise his INT by 5 points at level 20, which means only a +2 to +3 bonus from what he started with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 10-01-07, 04:21 PM	This isn't a 'should I allow it', more a 'I'm gonna allow it, now what's 'fair'? This is basically, say at 1st lv your int is 13. at 4th lv, you make it a 14. My thought is you can retrain to 'reassign' the 6 skill points you would have gotten had your int been 14 from lv 1...thoughts?
Operation_Shoestring 10-01-07, 04:39 PM	This isn't a 'should I allow it', more a 'I'm gonna allow it, now what's 'fair'? This is basically, say at 1st lv your int is 13. at 4th lv, you make it a 14. My thought is you can retrain to 'reassign' the 6 skill points you would have gotten had your int been 14 from lv 1...thoughts? Could be a house rule, though it would give benefit WIZ far more than any other class. You should put a cap on retraining. No more than 1-3 gains in INT should allow retraining. Anything more and you'll have high level wizards skill monkeys. Which could be a good thing if you want to play a rouge-less game but is otherwise unfair to bards and rogues. There also needs to be a cost for re-training. I suggest charging a small amount of EXP for each skill point gained this way.
Uratoh 10-01-07, 05:32 PM	There also needs to be a cost for re-training. I suggest charging a small amount of EXP for each skill point gained this way. There is a cost, I'm using the Retraining rules from the PHB2 as a base, just treating the 'nonexistant' skill points as skills to be retrained.
Salla 10-01-07, 06:36 PM	I can't see any real reason why not to grant those skill points ... you still won't really have a 'wizard skill monkey' because they lack the class skills to really show off like rogues or scouts do.
Kouk 10-01-07, 10:48 PM	I know you didn't ask for opinions, but I would not allow this because it is specifically called out as something that is not allowed in the core rules. I haven't read the PHB2 retraining chapter in a while, this is all prefaced with "If I recall correctly" Retraining is basically allowing the character to re-spend the skillpoints as if he had not made certain choices, it is not the same as gaining skill points retroactively. BUT: If you used a Point Buy system, or the character wanted to rearrange his ability scores from first level in such a way that he would then have actually had a higher Int at first level then he could retrain in that fashion and have more skill points, but not just by increasing Intelligence in the future. For example, if a Human started a character with putting a 13 into his Intelligence, and a 14 into his Dexterity, he could "retrain" putting the 14 into Int to get more skill points and the 13 into Dex and then increase the Dex up to 14 at a later point. This is a bit cheesy but I think that is allowed for retraining. There probably would not be a huge game impact by allowing retroactive skill points, but it would be an impact.
Pechvarry 10-02-07, 09:46 AM	But while speaking opinions, it's silly that a level 11 fighter goes to level 12, gets his CON boosted to 14, and gets 12 extra HP instead of 1. It's a double standard. And in another context: You have 2 Rangers. Both are level 8. Both have 12 INT. Both are Human. One started with 12, the other started with 10 and put both stat boosts into INT. Their being level 8 portrays their total experience. So, why should one have more skill points than the other? They shouldn't. To combat exploitation: 1) be a DM. You know, that means watch and moderate what your players do. 2) simply cap it at 18. Int stat over 18 cannot give retroactive skill points. my 2 cp.
Sunblast 10-02-07, 10:13 AM	But while speaking opinions, it's silly that a level 11 fighter goes to level 12, gets his CON boosted to 14, and gets 12 extra HP instead of 1. It's a double standard. But that one is a ton easier. For every +1 your con modifier goes up, raise your HP by 2*level. This makes for pretty stat changing. Now, think about intelligence. Say I don a headband of intellect for a little while. Do I really want to go through and get my skill points? Just think of the massive headaches caused by the intelligence version of the barbarian's rage. O_O
Pechvarry 10-02-07, 10:52 AM	Good point. We never count INT items for skill points, though. And I suppose that, in itself is sort of a double standard since we do let CON items give HP. But, as you said, that's much easier to solve. Also, it's true that 12 Skill points can do a lot more for you than 12 HP. So you have to draw the line somewhere; I just try to move the line up some. In general, I just cannot stand the idea of having 2 equal characters being unequal (see the Ranger example above). Their being level 8 specifies their equal quantities of gathered knowledge. For one to be under the other for an arbitrary, game rules reason, is just silly.
BW0222 10-02-07, 11:18 AM	Uratoh, Skill points tend to cause ranks to grow slowly. It is fairly difficult under the current system to suddenly drop 12+ skill points into a single skill. A rogue might get 10 skill points at one level, but typically keeps many skills maxed out. It would be rare to drop all 10 skill points into a new skill and become an instant expert. I don't think I'd like having a 12th-level character suddenly gain an extra 15 skill points (in addition to his normal 3) and suddenly become an instant expert in a new skill. For example, an 11th-level cleric have ranks in concentration, knowledge (religion), and a few others, suddenly gains 18 skill points in stead of this normal 3. He goes from 0 ranks to 15 ranks in diplomacy.
Kouk 10-02-07, 02:57 PM	Good point. We never count INT items for skill points, though. And I suppose that, in itself is sort of a double standard since we do let CON items give HP. But, as you said, that's much easier to solve. Also, it's true that 12 Skill points can do a lot more for you than 12 HP. So you have to draw the line somewhere; I just try to move the line up some. In general, I just cannot stand the idea of having 2 equal characters being unequal (see the Ranger example above). Their being level 8 specifies their equal quantities of gathered knowledge. For one to be under the other for an arbitrary, game rules reason, is just silly. Their characters may be the same class, but they are not the same character (and probably not identical twins). Do those Rangers all have the same feats? Same Companion? Same skills selection? Same everything else? What's the problem with a different number of Skill Points that one character got by investing more in his Intelligence at level 1 while the other guy was off wrestling bears or whatever? They grew up differently. I think the "roleplaying" reasoning for not getting retroactive skillpoints is because the 4x skill points represents your experience and learning from childhood (default characters always start at least as "young adults" for their race), and typically covers your "base" of skills that you will probably keep training for the rest of your career. It doesn't represent your pure brainpower, or items that boost INT would also increase your skill ranks available instead of just boosting a few skills. The game seems to believe that despite how your body may change, your brain is fundamentally the same from childhood -- you can't implant memories after the fact (without a plot device). But like I said earlier, the impact would be negligible because any given character can only raise his INT by 5 points at level 20, which means only a +2 to +3 bonus from what he started with.