retributive type feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

retributive type feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Divisionbyzer0
03-28-08, 03:48 PM I'm looking for feats which give you some sort of combat benefit, either damage, or attack roll, or special maneuvers against opponents who have dealt damage to you. I know there are some feats out there like this but I don't know what they are off the top of my head.

Thanks. :)
MrWildman
03-29-08, 02:12 AM Y'know, Divisionbyzer0, I've seen them before too.
But I just did a quick skimming of some "Complete (X)" books (the ones near the top of the piles :D ), and I can't find a single thing!

I thought maybe they among the options granted by Tactical Feats, but they're currently eluding me too. If they're in the Book Of Nine Swords I'll need to borrow from a player (I needed an excuse to borrow it anyway, so thanks).

I like a challenge. I'm off to find these beasties.

Peace.
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 03:39 AM I'll be scanning the complete feat indices I've found online, and I'll post what I find.
runestar
03-29-08, 03:44 AM Karmic strike and robilar's gambit let you make AoOs when enemies attack you.
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 03:46 AM Yes, I remember Karmic Strike from the CW as I was thumbing through it yesterday, and I think that's what prompted me to thinking about other feats which I've seen which are similar concept.

They could be useful for my barbarian who has basically a poor armor class. I'm almost always just taking the hits, so it wouldn't be bad to turn those hits about into some benefit.
clerkjester
03-29-08, 03:55 AM Check out the Tome of Battle... i think this is the right one... I'll have to double check with my friend. He is playing a crusader and the maneuvers are ridiculous.
Like one off the top my head... its one you get lvl 17 so dont think they are all bad ass

Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage.

I think thats right, but there are some cool things you can do out of there.
runestar
03-29-08, 04:09 AM Robilar's gambit might be better than karmic strike. The former requires just combat reflexes (which is a very good feat in its own right, and even more powerful when combined with said feat), while the latter needs you to take 2 feats (dodge, expertise), one of which you cannot use while raging, and dodge just plain sucks, though the upside is that you can take it much earlier.

I would advise against loading up too much on such feats though. If most of your offense triggers when you get hit, then the DM can simply just choose not to attack you and focus on other PCs instead.

Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage.

The DC is 19+str mod. Even with a strength score of 32, the dc is just 30, which most high lv monsters have no problems making because of their (usually) good fort saves.
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 10:05 AM Robilar's gambit might be better than karmic strike. The former requires just combat reflexes (which is a very good feat in its own right, and even more powerful when combined with said feat), while the latter needs you to take 2 feats (dodge, expertise), one of which you cannot use while raging, and dodge just plain sucks, though the upside is that you can take it much earlier.

I would advise against loading up too much on such feats though. If most of your offense triggers when you get hit, then the DM can simply just choose not to attack you and focus on other PCs instead.

Surely, I'd probably only take one such feat. Though the DM not hitting me would just be a bad idea, since sometimes I have to back off when my HP gets too low. I guess he could start getting more wily have enemies grapple me more often, or stun me, or have spellcasters use mind affecting spells etc.

But expertise can't be used in a rage state?
runestar
03-29-08, 10:13 AM But expertise can't be used in a rage state?

It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used.

Surely, I'd probably only take one such feat.

It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 10:56 AM It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used.

It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P
You are right, it is. Yeah they probably shouldn't stack.

Found another one from the Player's Handbook II -- divine justice: choose a foe if he damages you, when you next damage him use your damage roll or his whichever is higher.

To what extent can we paraphrase feats on this board without violating the rules?

I might as well make a list of all the feats which do stuff like this and post it, if that would be possible. Or at least we could do the feat and which page of which book it's in.
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 10:58 AM It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used.

It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P
You are right, it is. Yeah they probably shouldn't stack.

Found another one from the Player's Handbook II -- divine justice: choose a foe if he damages you, when you next damage him use your damage roll or his whichever is higher.

To what extent can we paraphrase feats on this board without violating the rules?

I might as well make a list of all the feats which do stuff like this and post it, if that would be possible. Or at least we could do the feat and which page of which book it's in.

Can someone tell me how to do a 2 column formatted table? :D
InkBlot
03-29-08, 01:41 PM Check out the Tome of Battle.
I'll second Tome Of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953787200). ToB introduced a system of martial maneuvers and stances, including strikes, boosts, and counters. Counter maneuvers are the ones that are relevant to this thread.

Each counter maneuver can be used as an immediate action. This means that you can use them on your enemy's turn, and interrupt their action (much like an attack of opportunity). Counter maneuvers encompass a wide variety of moves: like making a free attack of opportunity against a foe who missed hitting you with an attack of opportunity; making an opposed attack roll to deflect an opponent's attack into hitting another one of your foes; immediately moving to follow a fleeing enemy; making an opposed strength/dex check to foil a charge, and shove/trick the charging foe into moving too far; bash your foe with your shield to deflect an incoming attack (it automatically misses); making an opposed attack roll to trick your foe into hitting himself instead of you. That's just a few of the counters available in Tome Of Battle.

To learn a maneuver you can take a feat (Martial Study), or levels in one of the three classes from Tome Of Battle. Either way, you can only use each maneuver you know once per encounter. The ebb and flow of battle makes it difficult to pull off the same trick twice. You just need a few minutes peace to recover. However, if you take a class level you can instead recover in the middle of combat by using a special action; a full round of meditation for a Swordsage, a standard action flourish or an attack for a Warblade, or semi-randomly via divine inspiration for a Crusader. In general, ToB was designed to give melee characters a way to avoid doing the same thing every round of every combat. So they made it so you won't want to spam the same maneuver over and over again.

Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage.

That's Feral Death Blow, a 9th level Tiger Claw strike maneuver. It takes a full round action to use. It can't be combined with a full attack. The Fortitude save is actually DC 19 + Strength Modifier. After using it, you can't use it again until you use a turn to recover it, or until you've been out of combat for a few minutes. You need to be at least 17th level to learn it, if all your levels are martial adept levels (since 1/2 your non-martial-adept levels stack with your adept-levels, you can learn it at 20th level as a multiclass Martial Adept 14/Anything Else 6).
Divisionbyzer0
03-29-08, 01:49 PM Looks like I need to read this Tome of Battle.
InkBlot
03-29-08, 07:28 PM The full name is "Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords."

I wouldn't normally bother mentioning that, but it's caused confusion before. A couple days ago a friend of mine didn't know what book I was asking him to hand me, because I called it the Tome Of Battle, but the title on the book itself looks more like ...

TOME OF BATTLE
The BOOK OF
NINE SWORDS

It's really a fantastic book.
Kratch
03-30-08, 12:20 PM There are a few items that also damage those who hit you, they can be found in MiC
Divisionbyzer0
04-10-08, 12:04 AM Another one is "Retribution" from Dragon #326... every 5 points you take get +1 damage on your next attack against the opponent that damaged you next round
InkBlot
04-10-08, 01:59 AM That sounds almost exactly like the Crusader's Furious Counterstrike ability. For every 5 hit points of damage in their delayed damage pool, they gain a +1 to attack and damage. Their delayed damage pool empties at the end of each round. Also, the pool is only so big depending on level (max 30 hp damage at 20th).
Divisionbyzer0
04-10-08, 02:39 AM Yeah, I've started reading the Book Of Nine Swords... good stuff.

I believe this feat only works for the damage aspect of the attack, and if you miss the attack, I think you lose the benefit. I'm not sure it's worth a feat.
Divisionbyzer0
04-28-08, 03:11 AM Another one is "Retribution" from Dragon #326... every 5 points you take get +1 damage on your next attack against the opponent that damaged you next round

I have erred. It is +1 to your next attack roll. Lackluster.
goram_browncoat
04-28-08, 09:56 AM It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you)

As I recall (AFB though), robilars triggers an aoo after somebody swings at you (not hits you) and karmic after somebody hits you. Seems to me that the swing before the hit and the actual hit are chronologically speaking different things so 2 AoO's would probably be provoked. Thats how i woul interpret it anyway.

(Wasnt there a build on here a while back that got a six to one hit ratio using karmic+robilar? Jack b nimble jack b quick or some such)
Divisionbyzer0
04-29-08, 12:57 AM Rolibar's seems quite nice.
Divisionbyzer0
05-21-08, 02:37 AM Does Rolibar's work when someone is making an AoO against you? Presumably yes since it says "anyone who strikes at you"?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Divisionbyzer0 03-28-08, 03:48 PM	I'm looking for feats which give you some sort of combat benefit, either damage, or attack roll, or special maneuvers against opponents who have dealt damage to you. I know there are some feats out there like this but I don't know what they are off the top of my head. Thanks. :)
MrWildman 03-29-08, 02:12 AM	Y'know, Divisionbyzer0, I've seen them before too. But I just did a quick skimming of some "Complete (X)" books (the ones near the top of the piles :D ), and I can't find a single thing! I thought maybe they among the options granted by Tactical Feats, but they're currently eluding me too. If they're in the Book Of Nine Swords I'll need to borrow from a player (I needed an excuse to borrow it anyway, so thanks). I like a challenge. I'm off to find these beasties. Peace.
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 03:39 AM	I'll be scanning the complete feat indices I've found online, and I'll post what I find.
runestar 03-29-08, 03:44 AM	Karmic strike and robilar's gambit let you make AoOs when enemies attack you.
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 03:46 AM	Yes, I remember Karmic Strike from the CW as I was thumbing through it yesterday, and I think that's what prompted me to thinking about other feats which I've seen which are similar concept. They could be useful for my barbarian who has basically a poor armor class. I'm almost always just taking the hits, so it wouldn't be bad to turn those hits about into some benefit.
clerkjester 03-29-08, 03:55 AM	Check out the Tome of Battle... i think this is the right one... I'll have to double check with my friend. He is playing a crusader and the maneuvers are ridiculous. Like one off the top my head... its one you get lvl 17 so dont think they are all bad ass Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage. I think thats right, but there are some cool things you can do out of there.
runestar 03-29-08, 04:09 AM	Robilar's gambit might be better than karmic strike. The former requires just combat reflexes (which is a very good feat in its own right, and even more powerful when combined with said feat), while the latter needs you to take 2 feats (dodge, expertise), one of which you cannot use while raging, and dodge just plain sucks, though the upside is that you can take it much earlier. I would advise against loading up too much on such feats though. If most of your offense triggers when you get hit, then the DM can simply just choose not to attack you and focus on other PCs instead. Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage. The DC is 19+str mod. Even with a strength score of 32, the dc is just 30, which most high lv monsters have no problems making because of their (usually) good fort saves.
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 10:05 AM	Robilar's gambit might be better than karmic strike. The former requires just combat reflexes (which is a very good feat in its own right, and even more powerful when combined with said feat), while the latter needs you to take 2 feats (dodge, expertise), one of which you cannot use while raging, and dodge just plain sucks, though the upside is that you can take it much earlier. I would advise against loading up too much on such feats though. If most of your offense triggers when you get hit, then the DM can simply just choose not to attack you and focus on other PCs instead. Surely, I'd probably only take one such feat. Though the DM not hitting me would just be a bad idea, since sometimes I have to back off when my HP gets too low. I guess he could start getting more wily have enemies grapple me more often, or stun me, or have spellcasters use mind affecting spells etc. But expertise can't be used in a rage state?
runestar 03-29-08, 10:13 AM	But expertise can't be used in a rage state? It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used. Surely, I'd probably only take one such feat. It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 10:56 AM	It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used. It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P You are right, it is. Yeah they probably shouldn't stack. Found another one from the Player's Handbook II -- divine justice: choose a foe if he damages you, when you next damage him use your damage roll or his whichever is higher. To what extent can we paraphrase feats on this board without violating the rules? I might as well make a list of all the feats which do stuff like this and post it, if that would be possible. Or at least we could do the feat and which page of which book it's in.
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 10:58 AM	It is explicitly stated in the barb rage entry that expertise cannot be used. It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you), though few DMs would ever allow it anyways.:P You are right, it is. Yeah they probably shouldn't stack. Found another one from the Player's Handbook II -- divine justice: choose a foe if he damages you, when you next damage him use your damage roll or his whichever is higher. To what extent can we paraphrase feats on this board without violating the rules? I might as well make a list of all the feats which do stuff like this and post it, if that would be possible. Or at least we could do the feat and which page of which book it's in. Can someone tell me how to do a 2 column formatted table? :D
InkBlot 03-29-08, 01:41 PM	Check out the Tome of Battle. I'll second Tome Of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953787200). ToB introduced a system of martial maneuvers and stances, including strikes, boosts, and counters. Counter maneuvers are the ones that are relevant to this thread. Each counter maneuver can be used as an immediate action. This means that you can use them on your enemy's turn, and interrupt their action (much like an attack of opportunity). Counter maneuvers encompass a wide variety of moves: like making a free attack of opportunity against a foe who missed hitting you with an attack of opportunity; making an opposed attack roll to deflect an opponent's attack into hitting another one of your foes; immediately moving to follow a fleeing enemy; making an opposed strength/dex check to foil a charge, and shove/trick the charging foe into moving too far; bash your foe with your shield to deflect an incoming attack (it automatically misses); making an opposed attack roll to trick your foe into hitting himself instead of you. That's just a few of the counters available in Tome Of Battle. To learn a maneuver you can take a feat (Martial Study), or levels in one of the three classes from Tome Of Battle. Either way, you can only use each maneuver you know once per encounter. The ebb and flow of battle makes it difficult to pull off the same trick twice. You just need a few minutes peace to recover. However, if you take a class level you can instead recover in the middle of combat by using a special action; a full round of meditation for a Swordsage, a standard action flourish or an attack for a Warblade, or semi-randomly via divine inspiration for a Crusader. In general, ToB was designed to give melee characters a way to avoid doing the same thing every round of every combat. So they made it so you won't want to spam the same maneuver over and over again. Make a jump equal to your opponents AC and make a single melee attack. The opponent must then make a Fort save DC damage dealt. If failed instantly slain. if the succeed then ??d6 damage. That's Feral Death Blow, a 9th level Tiger Claw strike maneuver. It takes a full round action to use. It can't be combined with a full attack. The Fortitude save is actually DC 19 + Strength Modifier. After using it, you can't use it again until you use a turn to recover it, or until you've been out of combat for a few minutes. You need to be at least 17th level to learn it, if all your levels are martial adept levels (since 1/2 your non-martial-adept levels stack with your adept-levels, you can learn it at 20th level as a multiclass Martial Adept 14/Anything Else 6).
Divisionbyzer0 03-29-08, 01:49 PM	Looks like I need to read this Tome of Battle.
InkBlot 03-29-08, 07:28 PM	The full name is "Tome Of Battle: The Book Of Nine Swords." I wouldn't normally bother mentioning that, but it's caused confusion before. A couple days ago a friend of mine didn't know what book I was asking him to hand me, because I called it the Tome Of Battle, but the title on the book itself looks more like ... TOME OF BATTLE The BOOK OF NINE SWORDS It's really a fantastic book.
Kratch 03-30-08, 12:20 PM	There are a few items that also damage those who hit you, they can be found in MiC
Divisionbyzer0 04-10-08, 12:04 AM	Another one is "Retribution" from Dragon #326... every 5 points you take get +1 damage on your next attack against the opponent that damaged you next round
InkBlot 04-10-08, 01:59 AM	That sounds almost exactly like the Crusader's Furious Counterstrike ability. For every 5 hit points of damage in their delayed damage pool, they gain a +1 to attack and damage. Their delayed damage pool empties at the end of each round. Also, the pool is only so big depending on level (max 30 hp damage at 20th).
Divisionbyzer0 04-10-08, 02:39 AM	Yeah, I've started reading the Book Of Nine Swords... good stuff. I believe this feat only works for the damage aspect of the attack, and if you miss the attack, I think you lose the benefit. I'm not sure it's worth a feat.
Divisionbyzer0 04-28-08, 03:11 AM	Another one is "Retribution" from Dragon #326... every 5 points you take get +1 damage on your next attack against the opponent that damaged you next round I have erred. It is +1 to your next attack roll. Lackluster.
goram_browncoat 04-28-08, 09:56 AM	It is questionable if they stack (ie: with both active, you make 2 AoOs for each time the opponent hits you) As I recall (AFB though), robilars triggers an aoo after somebody swings at you (not hits you) and karmic after somebody hits you. Seems to me that the swing before the hit and the actual hit are chronologically speaking different things so 2 AoO's would probably be provoked. Thats how i woul interpret it anyway. (Wasnt there a build on here a while back that got a six to one hit ratio using karmic+robilar? Jack b nimble jack b quick or some such)
Divisionbyzer0 04-29-08, 12:57 AM	Rolibar's seems quite nice.
Divisionbyzer0 05-21-08, 02:37 AM	Does Rolibar's work when someone is making an AoO against you? Presumably yes since it says "anyone who strikes at you"?