Reverse Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Reverse Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 08:38 PM Power attack is a nice feat which gives two handed weapons an edge. What about a reverse feat though? One that works better for light weapons. For that I present, Precision Attack
Precision Attack (Fighter)
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Fighter level 8+
Benifit: You can lower your damage to increase your attack.
You can take up to -(max damage from weapon) from your damage to gain up to +(1/3max damage from weapon) from your attack. If you are using a light weapon you gain +1 attack from every -2 to damage instead of +1 attack per -3 damage. It is possible to go to 0 damage using this feat, which no longer counts as a hit. Precision attack can't be used with a two handed weapon. Precision Attack can't be used with any attack other than a melee attack. Precision attack only applies to one attack. On a critical hit, the amount of damage taken away is doubled, tripled, or quadrupled depending on the weapon you are wielding.

This feat does not count as Power Attack for Prerequisites.

Thoughts? Comments? Is it balanced?
SageBahamut
06-18-07, 08:40 PM Seems fine to me. Like you said, it's just power attack backwards. I would be absolutely clear that this feat does not count as power attack for prerequisites.
jaelis
06-18-07, 08:50 PM That's quite unbalanced. The reason power attack is fair is is that run the risk of missing entirely to do extra damage if you hit. But your version is more favorable. All you need is some nasty effect to happen if you hit and you can make sure that happens. Like... a wizard delivering a touch spell, an assassin with poison, a rogue with a big sneak attack, etc.

Or look at it another way. The +1d6 elemental enhancements are pretty well balanced with power attack... if you instead got a +1 bonus and used a 2H power attack, you would net +3 damage, about the same. But with your rule, you could convert that +3 damage to +3 (or +6!) to hit, which is worth a lot more when you're doing 2d6+10 or something like that.
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 08:50 PM Okay, will do.
Mighty_Draco
06-18-07, 08:51 PM It would be a very easy feat to break. For a -10 damage, rogues would get +20 on their attacks. That means anything that they could hit by rolling a 19 can get hit by rolling a 2. Throw in sneak attack and their damage skyrockets.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-18-07, 09:10 PM Problem is, to hit bonus is twice as good as a damage bonus(weapon focus compared to weapon specialization; power attack for that matter). Especially since things like sneak attack, death attacks, and touch attacks can all be abused with this sort of a feat.

This is a really bad feat.

If you allow a +1 to hit for every -2 to damage, it will work ok. But under no circumstance should light weapons get a +2 for every -1.
SpoonyBard
06-18-07, 09:13 PM Okay, first off, if you want it balanced on strict power-to-hit ration, -2 damage for +1 to hit, or -1 for +1 when using a light weapon.

Now, of course, is the probelm of "touch" abilities, So here's what I'd suggest...

Overreach Attack
Prereq: Dex 13
When you make a melee attack, you may accept a penalty to your AC of any number up to your BAB for 1 round in order to add half that amount to your attack roll. If you are wielding a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, you instead add an amount equal to the penalty to your attack roll. If you use this ability with a two handed weapon and roll a natural 1 on your attack, you fall prone.
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 09:16 PM Okay, Fixing.
Noodles2375
06-18-07, 09:21 PM Not to beat a horse (living or dead!)

But there are a lot of really insidious things you can do with such a feat.

1) I know its a bit specialized, but combine Avalance of Blades with Stromguarde Warrior tact. feat and this precise attack feat. Avalanche of blades lets you attack till you miss at cumulative -4, stromguarde makes all attacks no-damage touch attacks then you get a +5 to damage for each successful touch attack in the previous round. WOW!!!! You can set up some earth shattering hits.

2) The spellsword's channel spell ability would be in LOVE with this. You could freely take a -10 to damage and a +10 to hit knowing that you have a fireball or other nasty effect channeled.

3) Sneak attack and sudden strike would benefit greatly.

4) As mentioned above, an elemental weapon would love this since the elemental damage wouldn't be reduced!
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 09:29 PM You can do a lot with power attack anyways. And sneak attack is the only real problem left for core. I'm not sure how to deal with that, but +10 to hit for -10 to damage with a short sword could come out of the sneak attack damage.
aelryinth
06-18-07, 09:43 PM There is exactly ONE example of this ability existing...the Arcane Duelist, a PrC that is only available off the WoTC site.

Even then, the ability to hit was restricted by something (total bonuses above BAB with the weapon, I think).

I present to you an alternative feat:

Powerful Finesse (Fighter Bonus Feat)
Sometimes, you just gotta drive the sword home to kill them, not split them in two.

Prereq: BAB +1, Str 13.

You have learned how to use your strength to wield even the mightiest weapon like a willow wand, precise and graceful. You may subtract up to your Str Bonus to damage and apply it to your Str bonus to hit.

This feat may not be combined with Weapon Finesse or any form of voluntary Power Attack or Damage bonuses (such as from, say, Shock Trooper).

The only other example of a bonus to hit you could take voluntarily was the Reckless Offensive feat, which was effectively the exact opposite of Fighting Defensively (+2 TH, -4AC vs -4 TH/+2 AC)) and so should have been a combat option.

===Aelryinth
Jeriaus
06-18-07, 09:45 PM If you make it Fighter only, and placeit fairly high up, like level 8 or so, itll help prevent any brokeness, Also make it so even the Warblade cant get it. Maybe as an alt feature for Fighter. Thats the only way to keep it from being broken.
Holy_Beholder
06-18-07, 09:49 PM Done. And it still prevents offenses like using it for rays. Gish builds, gestalts, they can't abuse it.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-18-07, 11:10 PM Still slightly problematic. How foes this interact with Critical Hits? if the damage is not multipled, then your crit builds just became overpowered. Does the +10 apply to all attacks for the round or just to 1?

It would be less problematic to eliminate touch attacks (range and melee) entirely. As for ranged attacks, have the bonus only apply within 30 feet but the penalty apply to all distances.

Or, simple say that it is melee attacks only (no range, thrown, or touch).

How about this wording:Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee damage rolls and add the one half the number (rounded down) to all melee attack rolls. This number may not exceed -10 or your BAB, whichever is less. The penalty on damage and bonus on attack rolls apply until your next turn.
Special
If you attack with a light weapon, instead add the number subtracted from your damage rolls to your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Precision Attack to the attack roll with a two handed weapon (or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands), even though the penalty on damage rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

You may not apply this feet to any touch attacks.

Penalty to damage is applied after all other relevant damage modifiers (Strength, Specialization, etc.) and after special damage modifiers (such as sneak attack, skirmish, sudden attack, etc.), but before weapon enchantments.

If your damage is reduced to 0 or less after all modifiers have been added, you instead deal 1 point of damage.

A fighter may select Precision Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.I think this covers all bases now. Does this help, Holy_Beholder?
ShinAkuma2
06-18-07, 11:27 PM Still abusable with Freezing the Lifeblood and Weakening Touch, since they specifically do no damage already.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-18-07, 11:30 PM Still abusable with Freezing the Lifeblood and Weakening Touch, since they specifically do no damage already.Never seen the feats you mention. I am only concerned with CORE balance - It is impossible to account for all non-CORE material, since not everyone uses the same non-core books. From a core perspective, it is ok.

You could also add in a "may not be used with any special attack actions" clause - which would summarily eliminate those feats from abuse. :)
BroadStreetBully
06-19-07, 12:13 AM to start things off, to the OP, by definition any attack that scores a hit does a minimum 1 point of damage.

i don't like the idea, regardless of whether or not it's based on an attribute bonus (such as the Powerful Finesse feat previously presented). there are enough built-in ways to increase your attack bonus, between flanking, tripping, higher ground, feats such as Weapon Focus/Deft Strike/Improved Feint, masterwork/enchanted weapons, etc.

it wouldn't even work as an Ambush Feat (such as Hamstring or Disemboweling Strike) because with those you need to score a hit first, then subtract sneak attack dice to gain the effect.

FURTHERMORE, the OP listed the original feat-idea as having a prerequisite of fighter level 8. If all you want is to be able to hit more often, it'd be easier to go up the focus/specialization/greater focus/greater specialization/melee weapon mastery/etc. tree.

IN ADDITION..... if a player can take it, an NPC/monster/BBEG can take it, too. i personally don't want to ever face a dragon that already does 4d8+25 on just one of the 5 attacks it gets per round, LET ALONE that same dragon who can also sacrifice 10 damage to get an additional number "X" as an untyped bonus to its attack rolls.
Twylyght
06-19-07, 01:30 AM The arcane duelist version was limited by the base damage die of the weapon.
risner
06-19-07, 04:48 AM +1 attack from every -1 to damage

Not balanced.
The minimum (balanced) ratio is -1.6 damage per +1 attack.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-19-07, 07:33 AM Not balanced.
The minimum (balanced) ratio is -1.6 damage per +1 attack.how doe the re-written feat I posted look? Mechanically, I think it covers all of the possible loopholes.
lint trap
06-19-07, 10:00 AM Not trying to be a smart-ass, but with so many people claiming that fighters are underpowered, maybe a few "overpowered" feats aren't out of order.
Holy_Beholder
06-19-07, 10:38 AM IN ADDITION..... if a player can take it, an NPC/monster/BBEG can take it, too. i personally don't want to ever face a dragon that already does 4d8+25 on just one of the 5 attacks it gets per round, LET ALONE that same dragon who can also sacrifice 10 damage to get an additional number "X" as an untyped bonus to its attack rolls.

Only if the dragon is at least a level 8 fighter, which means you are pretty much screwed anyways.
Holy_Beholder
06-19-07, 10:43 AM Precise Disarm(Fighter)
Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Precision Attack, Improved Disarm, Fighter level 10+
Benefit: You can use your dex score instead of your strength score on disarm checks. You can also disarm two weapons in one attack if your opponent is dual wielding.
Normal: You use Strength for disarm checks, and can only disarm one weapon in an attack.

Another feat in the chain, since fighters are underpowered and need a boost.
kenicolo
06-19-07, 10:48 AM The thing is that Power atk is limited to your BAB.
Your version is limited to an arbitrary 10. Maybe if you cap with the maximum damage of the weapon WITHOUT enchantment.
Ex. a raper max is 6 (1D6) so the best i could do is reduce the damage by 6 and add 12 to hit. Cauz you cant reduce your wpn damage to lower thant want it can do.
tarkin
06-19-07, 11:08 AM The proper ratio for the BEST weapon should be -3 damage, +1 to hit.

In a power game, you could boost it up to -5 damage, +2 to hit.

Also, You need a "no damage = no hit" Otherwise you have people using poison/wounding/other non-damaging devices, and you are just giving them a HUGE to hit benefit without damage.

Part of the problem is you think 1:1 and 1:2 are from power attack, so they must be fair.

BULLCRAP.

The Power Attack ratios were originally set up to screw the user. 9 times out of 10 they are NOT worth it. You are only supposed to use the feat in rare circumstances, not 100% of the time.

your ability to choose not to do it is a POWERFUL additional factor I.E. 1:2 is fair because you usually don't do it, but sometimes when it is in your favor you take it. 1:2.5 is the real fair base number. It is used by Flaming weapons, where you don't have the choice to use it or not.

Wen you reverse 1:2 you get something that is way overpowered. I don't mean "little bit, acceptable in a Power Game" I mean NO freakin way, unless you are in an ANYTHING GOES GAME.

Look at a real world example
OK. The fair bank raito of dollar to Euro is say 1 dollar = 1.5 euro. When you go to buy a euro, with your dollar, you do NOT get 1.5 euro. Instead, their is a cost to do business. You get say 1.4 euros for your dollar, and only if you buy in bulk. More often you get 1.2 euros.

But when people with euor's buy from the bank, they don't pay 1.2 euros, for a dollar, they pay 1.8 euros to get a dollar. The inbetween is the bank's profit.

Similarly, 1:2 the best ratio you can get without a prestige class, is specifically designed to only be worthwhile in special circumstances. You can NOT reverse it, because suddenly you have something that was supposed to be a bad deal become a good deal. 1:1 is not a good deal it was supposed to screw the players horrendsouly. Reversing it is like giving them a free wish.

--------

-1 to hit +1 damage = Bad deal you don't do this unless you have to. (one handed power attack)

-1 to hit +2 damage = This is appropriate for anything where you get to decide to use it or not. Sometimes it will be worth it, sometimes not. (two handed power attack)

-1 to hit, +2.5 damage = FAIR EXCHANGE. You can always do that and come out even, this is what you use if they do not have a choice about whether to trade or not. (Flaming weapons do this exchange - but they force you to pay with a round to activate)

+1 to hit, -2.5 damage = FAIR EXCHANGE. again, this is appropriate only if they do NOT get to decide if they do it. I.E. If you take this feat, then you ALWAYS get +4 to hit, and ALWAYS get -10 damage.

[U]+1 to hit, -3 damage = This is appropriate for anything where you get to decide to use it or not.

+1 to hit, -4 damage = sucky deal, don't ever take it.

In a power game, I could see making your feat +1 to hit, -2.5, while they get to choose the feat.

--------------

As to the person that thinks "Fighters suck, they need more boost"

1. They don't suck. They do very well, if they are well done. The reason people think they suck is they don't value feats at all - which are the fighter's thing. A good fighter can win any long drawn out battle - it just takes some BRAINS to make sure the battle becomes long drawn out instead of engagin in a quick little thing.

2. There is a difference between making a fair 1:3 feat, a slighlty overpowered 1:2.5 feat. and a RIDICULOUS 1:1 piece of crap.
risner
06-19-07, 11:51 AM The proper ratio for the BEST weapon should be -3 damage, +1 to hit.

In a power game, you could boost it up to -5 damage, +2 to hit.

Good useful post. You put much more effort into it than I did.

Also, responding to the growth of the feat. Because of these issues with balanced, the cases where the feat doesn't work has grown and grown. That alone should be an indicator the ratio is not fair at -1 for +1 as it stands. I don't see any way to make it fair at a 1 for 1 ratio. 1.6 for 1 is the minimum it could be considered non game breaking. At 1.6, you still are getting something with no cost. Going back to Tarkin's money ref, it is like getting the bank to exchange your money for free. It is like in D&D, not having to pay the 10% "money changing" tax when you convert the 20,000 copper coins into gold or plat coins.
BroadStreetBully
06-19-07, 12:01 PM Again, just discard the feat and be done with it. The good people at WotC designed Power Attack well over 6 years ago, and if they had any intention of designing a "Reverse Power Attack", we'd have seen it by now. there are probably a ton of reasons why they haven't, as previously mentioned by more people than just myself in this thread.

Furthermore, there already ARE precision attacks in D&D; they're called sneak attack, skirmish, and sudden strike. And absolutely NONE of them involve taking a penalty on damage to gain a bonus to attack. In fact, believe it or not, they all require hitting a vital area in the first place in order to do MORE damage, which itself scales with level.
CryoSilver
06-19-07, 12:18 PM There are many, many instances where this feat could be horribly broken.

Wounding Weapons come to mind; anything that substantially boosts to-hit at the cost of damage raises a red flag, IMO. Imagine that Swordsage ability thast allows you to take 2 full attacks, combined with Haste, 2 weapon fighting and this feat. As long as your minimum damge is 11 (quite easy to achieve), you can get a free +10 to hit, and who casres what "damage" you're doing when every 2 hits reduces your foe's HP by 1 per Hit Die, as well dropping saves? It's a potential 14 hits in one round, with an extra +10 to hit... It isn't the only broken way to use this feat, either.
NobodyRemembersThis
06-19-07, 12:20 PM Not trying to be a smart-ass, but with so many people claiming that fighters are underpowered, maybe a few "overpowered" feats aren't out of order.The original feat he provided (as it was not fighter specific) allowed some serious insanity with sneak, skirmish, and touch attacks. As is, this could stil result in some crazy good warblade builds, but I am not concerned with balancing against that.

It isn't core :P
BroadStreetBully
06-19-07, 12:49 PM The original feat he provided (as it was not fighter specific) allowed some serious insanity with sneak, skirmish, and touch attacks. As is, this could stil result in some crazy good warblade builds, but I am not concerned with balancing against that.

It isn't core :P

to say the least.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 08:38 PM	Power attack is a nice feat which gives two handed weapons an edge. What about a reverse feat though? One that works better for light weapons. For that I present, Precision Attack Precision Attack (Fighter) Prerequisites: Dex 13+, Fighter level 8+ Benifit: You can lower your damage to increase your attack. You can take up to -(max damage from weapon) from your damage to gain up to +(1/3max damage from weapon) from your attack. If you are using a light weapon you gain +1 attack from every -2 to damage instead of +1 attack per -3 damage. It is possible to go to 0 damage using this feat, which no longer counts as a hit. Precision attack can't be used with a two handed weapon. Precision Attack can't be used with any attack other than a melee attack. Precision attack only applies to one attack. On a critical hit, the amount of damage taken away is doubled, tripled, or quadrupled depending on the weapon you are wielding. This feat does not count as Power Attack for Prerequisites. Thoughts? Comments? Is it balanced?
SageBahamut 06-18-07, 08:40 PM	Seems fine to me. Like you said, it's just power attack backwards. I would be absolutely clear that this feat does not count as power attack for prerequisites.
jaelis 06-18-07, 08:50 PM	That's quite unbalanced. The reason power attack is fair is is that run the risk of missing entirely to do extra damage if you hit. But your version is more favorable. All you need is some nasty effect to happen if you hit and you can make sure that happens. Like... a wizard delivering a touch spell, an assassin with poison, a rogue with a big sneak attack, etc. Or look at it another way. The +1d6 elemental enhancements are pretty well balanced with power attack... if you instead got a +1 bonus and used a 2H power attack, you would net +3 damage, about the same. But with your rule, you could convert that +3 damage to +3 (or +6!) to hit, which is worth a lot more when you're doing 2d6+10 or something like that.
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 08:50 PM	Okay, will do.
Mighty_Draco 06-18-07, 08:51 PM	It would be a very easy feat to break. For a -10 damage, rogues would get +20 on their attacks. That means anything that they could hit by rolling a 19 can get hit by rolling a 2. Throw in sneak attack and their damage skyrockets.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-18-07, 09:10 PM	Problem is, to hit bonus is twice as good as a damage bonus(weapon focus compared to weapon specialization; power attack for that matter). Especially since things like sneak attack, death attacks, and touch attacks can all be abused with this sort of a feat. This is a really bad feat. If you allow a +1 to hit for every -2 to damage, it will work ok. But under no circumstance should light weapons get a +2 for every -1.
SpoonyBard 06-18-07, 09:13 PM	Okay, first off, if you want it balanced on strict power-to-hit ration, -2 damage for +1 to hit, or -1 for +1 when using a light weapon. Now, of course, is the probelm of "touch" abilities, So here's what I'd suggest... Overreach Attack Prereq: Dex 13 When you make a melee attack, you may accept a penalty to your AC of any number up to your BAB for 1 round in order to add half that amount to your attack roll. If you are wielding a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, you instead add an amount equal to the penalty to your attack roll. If you use this ability with a two handed weapon and roll a natural 1 on your attack, you fall prone.
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 09:16 PM	Okay, Fixing.
Noodles2375 06-18-07, 09:21 PM	Not to beat a horse (living or dead!) But there are a lot of really insidious things you can do with such a feat. 1) I know its a bit specialized, but combine Avalance of Blades with Stromguarde Warrior tact. feat and this precise attack feat. Avalanche of blades lets you attack till you miss at cumulative -4, stromguarde makes all attacks no-damage touch attacks then you get a +5 to damage for each successful touch attack in the previous round. WOW!!!! You can set up some earth shattering hits. 2) The spellsword's channel spell ability would be in LOVE with this. You could freely take a -10 to damage and a +10 to hit knowing that you have a fireball or other nasty effect channeled. 3) Sneak attack and sudden strike would benefit greatly. 4) As mentioned above, an elemental weapon would love this since the elemental damage wouldn't be reduced!
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 09:29 PM	You can do a lot with power attack anyways. And sneak attack is the only real problem left for core. I'm not sure how to deal with that, but +10 to hit for -10 to damage with a short sword could come out of the sneak attack damage.
aelryinth 06-18-07, 09:43 PM	There is exactly ONE example of this ability existing...the Arcane Duelist, a PrC that is only available off the WoTC site. Even then, the ability to hit was restricted by something (total bonuses above BAB with the weapon, I think). I present to you an alternative feat: Powerful Finesse (Fighter Bonus Feat) Sometimes, you just gotta drive the sword home to kill them, not split them in two. Prereq: BAB +1, Str 13. You have learned how to use your strength to wield even the mightiest weapon like a willow wand, precise and graceful. You may subtract up to your Str Bonus to damage and apply it to your Str bonus to hit. This feat may not be combined with Weapon Finesse or any form of voluntary Power Attack or Damage bonuses (such as from, say, Shock Trooper). The only other example of a bonus to hit you could take voluntarily was the Reckless Offensive feat, which was effectively the exact opposite of Fighting Defensively (+2 TH, -4AC vs -4 TH/+2 AC)) and so should have been a combat option. ===Aelryinth
Jeriaus 06-18-07, 09:45 PM	If you make it Fighter only, and placeit fairly high up, like level 8 or so, itll help prevent any brokeness, Also make it so even the Warblade cant get it. Maybe as an alt feature for Fighter. Thats the only way to keep it from being broken.
Holy_Beholder 06-18-07, 09:49 PM	Done. And it still prevents offenses like using it for rays. Gish builds, gestalts, they can't abuse it.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-18-07, 11:10 PM	Still slightly problematic. How foes this interact with Critical Hits? if the damage is not multipled, then your crit builds just became overpowered. Does the +10 apply to all attacks for the round or just to 1? It would be less problematic to eliminate touch attacks (range and melee) entirely. As for ranged attacks, have the bonus only apply within 30 feet but the penalty apply to all distances. Or, simple say that it is melee attacks only (no range, thrown, or touch). How about this wording:Benefit On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee damage rolls and add the one half the number (rounded down) to all melee attack rolls. This number may not exceed -10 or your BAB, whichever is less. The penalty on damage and bonus on attack rolls apply until your next turn. Special If you attack with a light weapon, instead add the number subtracted from your damage rolls to your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Precision Attack to the attack roll with a two handed weapon (or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands), even though the penalty on damage rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) You may not apply this feet to any touch attacks. Penalty to damage is applied after all other relevant damage modifiers (Strength, Specialization, etc.) and after special damage modifiers (such as sneak attack, skirmish, sudden attack, etc.), but before weapon enchantments. If your damage is reduced to 0 or less after all modifiers have been added, you instead deal 1 point of damage. A fighter may select Precision Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.I think this covers all bases now. Does this help, Holy_Beholder?
ShinAkuma2 06-18-07, 11:27 PM	Still abusable with Freezing the Lifeblood and Weakening Touch, since they specifically do no damage already.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-18-07, 11:30 PM	Still abusable with Freezing the Lifeblood and Weakening Touch, since they specifically do no damage already.Never seen the feats you mention. I am only concerned with CORE balance - It is impossible to account for all non-CORE material, since not everyone uses the same non-core books. From a core perspective, it is ok. You could also add in a "may not be used with any special attack actions" clause - which would summarily eliminate those feats from abuse. :)
BroadStreetBully 06-19-07, 12:13 AM	to start things off, to the OP, by definition any attack that scores a hit does a minimum 1 point of damage. i don't like the idea, regardless of whether or not it's based on an attribute bonus (such as the Powerful Finesse feat previously presented). there are enough built-in ways to increase your attack bonus, between flanking, tripping, higher ground, feats such as Weapon Focus/Deft Strike/Improved Feint, masterwork/enchanted weapons, etc. it wouldn't even work as an Ambush Feat (such as Hamstring or Disemboweling Strike) because with those you need to score a hit first, then subtract sneak attack dice to gain the effect. FURTHERMORE, the OP listed the original feat-idea as having a prerequisite of fighter level 8. If all you want is to be able to hit more often, it'd be easier to go up the focus/specialization/greater focus/greater specialization/melee weapon mastery/etc. tree. IN ADDITION..... if a player can take it, an NPC/monster/BBEG can take it, too. i personally don't want to ever face a dragon that already does 4d8+25 on just one of the 5 attacks it gets per round, LET ALONE that same dragon who can also sacrifice 10 damage to get an additional number "X" as an untyped bonus to its attack rolls.
Twylyght 06-19-07, 01:30 AM	The arcane duelist version was limited by the base damage die of the weapon.
risner 06-19-07, 04:48 AM	+1 attack from every -1 to damage Not balanced. The minimum (balanced) ratio is -1.6 damage per +1 attack.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-19-07, 07:33 AM	Not balanced. The minimum (balanced) ratio is -1.6 damage per +1 attack.how doe the re-written feat I posted look? Mechanically, I think it covers all of the possible loopholes.
lint trap 06-19-07, 10:00 AM	Not trying to be a smart-ass, but with so many people claiming that fighters are underpowered, maybe a few "overpowered" feats aren't out of order.
Holy_Beholder 06-19-07, 10:38 AM	IN ADDITION..... if a player can take it, an NPC/monster/BBEG can take it, too. i personally don't want to ever face a dragon that already does 4d8+25 on just one of the 5 attacks it gets per round, LET ALONE that same dragon who can also sacrifice 10 damage to get an additional number "X" as an untyped bonus to its attack rolls. Only if the dragon is at least a level 8 fighter, which means you are pretty much screwed anyways.
Holy_Beholder 06-19-07, 10:43 AM	Precise Disarm(Fighter) Prerequisites: Dex 15+, Precision Attack, Improved Disarm, Fighter level 10+ Benefit: You can use your dex score instead of your strength score on disarm checks. You can also disarm two weapons in one attack if your opponent is dual wielding. Normal: You use Strength for disarm checks, and can only disarm one weapon in an attack. Another feat in the chain, since fighters are underpowered and need a boost.
kenicolo 06-19-07, 10:48 AM	The thing is that Power atk is limited to your BAB. Your version is limited to an arbitrary 10. Maybe if you cap with the maximum damage of the weapon WITHOUT enchantment. Ex. a raper max is 6 (1D6) so the best i could do is reduce the damage by 6 and add 12 to hit. Cauz you cant reduce your wpn damage to lower thant want it can do.
tarkin 06-19-07, 11:08 AM	The proper ratio for the BEST weapon should be -3 damage, +1 to hit. In a power game, you could boost it up to -5 damage, +2 to hit. Also, You need a "no damage = no hit" Otherwise you have people using poison/wounding/other non-damaging devices, and you are just giving them a HUGE to hit benefit without damage. Part of the problem is you think 1:1 and 1:2 are from power attack, so they must be fair. BULLCRAP. The Power Attack ratios were originally set up to screw the user. 9 times out of 10 they are NOT worth it. You are only supposed to use the feat in rare circumstances, not 100% of the time. your ability to choose not to do it is a POWERFUL additional factor I.E. 1:2 is fair because you usually don't do it, but sometimes when it is in your favor you take it. 1:2.5 is the real fair base number. It is used by Flaming weapons, where you don't have the choice to use it or not. Wen you reverse 1:2 you get something that is way overpowered. I don't mean "little bit, acceptable in a Power Game" I mean NO freakin way, unless you are in an ANYTHING GOES GAME. Look at a real world example OK. The fair bank raito of dollar to Euro is say 1 dollar = 1.5 euro. When you go to buy a euro, with your dollar, you do NOT get 1.5 euro. Instead, their is a cost to do business. You get say 1.4 euros for your dollar, and only if you buy in bulk. More often you get 1.2 euros. But when people with euor's buy from the bank, they don't pay 1.2 euros, for a dollar, they pay 1.8 euros to get a dollar. The inbetween is the bank's profit. Similarly, 1:2 the best ratio you can get without a prestige class, is specifically designed to only be worthwhile in special circumstances. You can NOT reverse it, because suddenly you have something that was supposed to be a bad deal become a good deal. 1:1 is not a good deal it was supposed to screw the players horrendsouly. Reversing it is like giving them a free wish. -------- -1 to hit +1 damage = Bad deal you don't do this unless you have to. (one handed power attack) -1 to hit +2 damage = This is appropriate for anything where you get to decide to use it or not. Sometimes it will be worth it, sometimes not. (two handed power attack) -1 to hit, +2.5 damage = FAIR EXCHANGE. You can always do that and come out even, this is what you use if they do not have a choice about whether to trade or not. (Flaming weapons do this exchange - but they force you to pay with a round to activate) +1 to hit, -2.5 damage = FAIR EXCHANGE. again, this is appropriate only if they do NOT get to decide if they do it. I.E. If you take this feat, then you ALWAYS get +4 to hit, and ALWAYS get -10 damage. [U]+1 to hit, -3 damage = This is appropriate for anything where you get to decide to use it or not. +1 to hit, -4 damage = sucky deal, don't ever take it. In a power game, I could see making your feat +1 to hit, -2.5, while they get to choose the feat. -------------- As to the person that thinks "Fighters suck, they need more boost" 1. They don't suck. They do very well, if they are well done. The reason people think they suck is they don't value feats at all - which are the fighter's thing. A good fighter can win any long drawn out battle - it just takes some BRAINS to make sure the battle becomes long drawn out instead of engagin in a quick little thing. 2. There is a difference between making a fair 1:3 feat, a slighlty overpowered 1:2.5 feat. and a RIDICULOUS 1:1 piece of crap.
risner 06-19-07, 11:51 AM	The proper ratio for the BEST weapon should be -3 damage, +1 to hit. In a power game, you could boost it up to -5 damage, +2 to hit. Good useful post. You put much more effort into it than I did. Also, responding to the growth of the feat. Because of these issues with balanced, the cases where the feat doesn't work has grown and grown. That alone should be an indicator the ratio is not fair at -1 for +1 as it stands. I don't see any way to make it fair at a 1 for 1 ratio. 1.6 for 1 is the minimum it could be considered non game breaking. At 1.6, you still are getting something with no cost. Going back to Tarkin's money ref, it is like getting the bank to exchange your money for free. It is like in D&D, not having to pay the 10% "money changing" tax when you convert the 20,000 copper coins into gold or plat coins.
BroadStreetBully 06-19-07, 12:01 PM	Again, just discard the feat and be done with it. The good people at WotC designed Power Attack well over 6 years ago, and if they had any intention of designing a "Reverse Power Attack", we'd have seen it by now. there are probably a ton of reasons why they haven't, as previously mentioned by more people than just myself in this thread. Furthermore, there already ARE precision attacks in D&D; they're called sneak attack, skirmish, and sudden strike. And absolutely NONE of them involve taking a penalty on damage to gain a bonus to attack. In fact, believe it or not, they all require hitting a vital area in the first place in order to do MORE damage, which itself scales with level.
CryoSilver 06-19-07, 12:18 PM	There are many, many instances where this feat could be horribly broken. Wounding Weapons come to mind; anything that substantially boosts to-hit at the cost of damage raises a red flag, IMO. Imagine that Swordsage ability thast allows you to take 2 full attacks, combined with Haste, 2 weapon fighting and this feat. As long as your minimum damge is 11 (quite easy to achieve), you can get a free +10 to hit, and who casres what "damage" you're doing when every 2 hits reduces your foe's HP by 1 per Hit Die, as well dropping saves? It's a potential 14 hits in one round, with an extra +10 to hit... It isn't the only broken way to use this feat, either.
NobodyRemembersThis 06-19-07, 12:20 PM	Not trying to be a smart-ass, but with so many people claiming that fighters are underpowered, maybe a few "overpowered" feats aren't out of order.The original feat he provided (as it was not fighter specific) allowed some serious insanity with sneak, skirmish, and touch attacks. As is, this could stil result in some crazy good warblade builds, but I am not concerned with balancing against that. It isn't core :P
BroadStreetBully 06-19-07, 12:49 PM	The original feat he provided (as it was not fighter specific) allowed some serious insanity with sneak, skirmish, and touch attacks. As is, this could stil result in some crazy good warblade builds, but I am not concerned with balancing against that. It isn't core :P to say the least.