Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dual_wielder 09-17-07, 09:45 PM	Hey i'm building a rogue heading towards assassin and would like some help choosing feats. this is my first rogue character (i am relatively new), so any and all help will be much appreciated.
yrogerg 09-17-07, 10:44 PM	Hey i'm building a rogue heading towards assassin and would like some help choosing feats. this is my first rogue character (i am relatively new), so any and all help will be much appreciated. Weapon Finesse and the TWF tree pretty much top the list, methinks.
dman11235 09-17-07, 10:59 PM	More info please.
Keladelros 09-18-07, 01:00 AM	Well. You don't have much of a concept for me to look at... Sooooo.... Be sure to load stuff into Int, Move Silently, Hide, Bluff, and forgery. My vision of an assasin expands beyond the scope of 'i go up and stab you'. Keep your dex and cha high. Disguise works wonders too. IMO Skill Rogues are wayyy more suited to be assasins than combat rogues. Intelligence is something you'll want to increase for the spells, skills, and DA.
dman11235 09-18-07, 01:12 AM	Ditto. Be Bond.
Keladelros 09-18-07, 01:35 AM	Well spoken dman11235... Well spoken.
The_Shaman 09-18-07, 06:25 AM	Hey i'm building a rogue heading towards assassin and would like some help choosing feats. this is my first rogue character (i am relatively new), so any and all help will be much appreciated. How do you want to get your jobs done? You can do it in a more combat-oriented way or in a more stealthy way... As for feats, I think many rogue-oriented feats can't go wrong on assassin, either. My fav is quick reconnoiteur from CAdv (I think, AFB at present): sensory checks as free actions AND a boost to initiative.
Orchomenos 09-18-07, 07:44 AM	Another cool option would be Combat Expertise + Improved Feint, with the highest Bluff possible. Weapon Finesse is probably still required, depending on your STR vs DEX. Your combat round would look like: 1) Feint as a Move Action 2) Sneak Attack the flat-footed foe as a Standard action. Though this tactic is less appealing when you hit BAB +6/+1, because you can't use your iterative attack. Nor does it mesh very well with Two-Weapon Fighting. Do not underestimate skills like Balance & Climb. If you fight on a slippery surface or narrow ledge, you can easily stay on your feet while your foe is loosing his DEX to AC, allowing you to sneak attack at will. The same way, if you ambush your foe from an higher point (a cliff, or a tree), you can force the foe to climb to attack you in melee. And a foe who is climbing doesn't have his DEX to AC... In addition, you can use your natural environment as a cover.
Dheran 09-18-07, 12:21 PM	Hey i'm building a rogue heading towards assassin and would like some help choosing feats. this is my first rogue character (i am relatively new), so any and all help will be much appreciated. You want Weapon Finesse to take advantage of your Rogue's high DEX. Stay away from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. You don't have enough feats available to benefit from this mediocre investment, and the Assassin's Death Attack class feature only works with a single attack so TWF is wasted. Much of your feat selection is dependent on how far you progress in Rogue before switching to Assassin. If you get to level 10+ in Rogue you can select the Opportunist special ability. This will let you make an AoO against an enemy damaged by your ally. If you want to get in the thick of things, Opportunist is greatly aided by the Combat Reflexes and Savvy Rogue feats. Your best bet to sneak attack is when foes are flat-footed, so take Improved Initiative and Quick Reconnoiter to boost your initiative modifier. You'll want to carry a missile weapon ready to fire, because it's criminally wasteful to give up a sneak attack opportunity to close for a melee attack. The Crossbow Sniper feat will let you sneak attack within 60' instead of just the usual 30' range. Because you get rather few feats, concentrate instead on skills and especially skill tricks that you can use in combat.
MICKING 09-18-07, 03:08 PM	You are going to want Quickdraw because that makes it easier to pull off the death attack after 3 rounds of watching, and imp init will be good if you fail to kill right away. get spell compendium or comp adventurer for sweet assassin spells. good luck
Darryl_Licke 09-18-07, 05:49 PM	You want Weapon Finesse to take advantage of your Rogue's high DEX. Stay away from the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. You don't have enough feats available to benefit from this mediocre investment, and the Assassin's Death Attack class feature only works with a single attack so TWF is wasted. why do you feel this way? if he has Weapon Finesse it would stand to reason that he'd have a high enough dex to offset the -2 for using two light weapons. If your comment is strictly regarding the Death Attack please disregard. I only ask this since many of these ideas apply to my shadowdancer build as well.
dman11235 09-18-07, 06:01 PM	Well, I'd stay away from TWF unless you have some other way to up you attack bonus or decrease target AC. That -2 hurts a LOT for a medium BAB character. Also, it's a very feat intensive for a mostly feat starved class. That's three of your 7 from levels, and one more for weapon finesse. Dodge, mobility are usually prereqs for a bunch of stuff, and you have one feat remaining for Savvy Rogue. And then you probably want weapon focus. Improved Buckler defense is also something you want with TWF. Combat Reflexes is another good feat especially if you have Savvy Rogue and Opportunist. And Mage Slayer. There are a lot of feats that a great for rogues, and I'd rather do them and hit about the same as a TWF. If you had, say, a bard with the Words of Creation giving you a +10 or more to attack, go for it. You can't miss anyway. If you had a wand of greater invis or someone casting superior or greater invis or scrolls or superior invis, then it might be worth it, as you'll be targeting flat footed AC.
yrogerg 09-18-07, 07:36 PM	Well, I'd stay away from TWF unless you have some other way to up you attack bonus or decrease target AC. That -2 hurts a LOT for a medium BAB character. Also, it's a very feat intensive for a mostly feat starved class. That's three of your 7 from levels, and one more for weapon finesse. Dodge, mobility are usually prereqs for a bunch of stuff, and you have one feat remaining for Savvy Rogue. And then you probably want weapon focus. Improved Buckler defense is also something you want with TWF. Combat Reflexes is another good feat especially if you have Savvy Rogue and Opportunist. And Mage Slayer. There are a lot of feats that a great for rogues, and I'd rather do them and hit about the same as a TWF. If you had, say, a bard with the Words of Creation giving you a +10 or more to attack, go for it. You can't miss anyway. If you had a wand of greater invis or someone casting superior or greater invis or scrolls or superior invis, then it might be worth it, as you'll be targeting flat footed AC. Don't you gain spellcasting from Assassin levels? Seems to me you'd have access to this stuff. The main reason TWF is useful is that pure rogues' main combat class ability is a massive *per-attack* damage bonus that applies in situations when the targets AC *is* already lowered -when they're flanked or denied their dex bonuses. These things strongly mitigate the -2 to attack from TWF. I mean, you're already planning on playing a rogue/assassin, so you're *already* locking yourself into only being effective against a certain subset of creatures (those whose AC you can hit and who are vulnerable to critical hits), and already locking yourself into a character that's situationally effective in combat, but in those situations, somewhat potent. TWF isn't a bad choice, and the best way to maximize Sneak Attack damage. Effective rogues use attacks as Sneak Attack delivery devices, anyway. Dodge and Mobility, on the other hand, are almost never worth it for a rogue that puts minimal ranks in Tumble. Even the things that they're prerequisites for are usually not worth it for a pure rogue. Actually, there's something rather hilarious about someone saying "The TWF tree is too feat-intensive for a rogue! Go Dodge/Mobility/Blah instead!"
dual_wielder 09-18-07, 08:10 PM	What book is Savvy Rogue in? Also Quick reconnoiter?
dman11235 09-18-07, 08:13 PM	I never said it's bad. Did I, I don't think I did. I just prefer non-TWF. And I do agree that one of the best things to have with TWF is precision based damage. And no, I don't say that it's too feat intensive compared to dodge/mobility stuff, just when combined. Savvy Rogue-Complete Scoundrel Quick Reconnoiter-Complete Adventure.
sijigs 09-18-07, 08:23 PM	At later levels, if you can spare a feat try take the tactical feat: Raptor School (Comp Warrior). Edit: or even better Mage Slayer (Comp Arcane) BUT only if you go non spell casting classes. Combine that with a spiked chain = win.
Dheran 09-18-07, 08:44 PM	What book is Savvy Rogue in? Also Quick reconnoiter? Savvy Rogue is in Complete Scoundrel. Quick Reconnoiter is in Complete Adventurer.
Dheran 09-18-07, 09:14 PM	Dodge and Mobility, on the other hand, are almost never worth it for a rogue that puts minimal ranks in Tumble. Even the things that they're prerequisites for are usually not worth it for a pure rogue. You're correct that these are two rather sucky feats for a Rogue. I'd only recommend the combination if you're taking both a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight; and the Spring Attack feat or the Dervish PrC (which gets Spring Attack at level 3). Even then, I wouldn't go straight Dodge + Mobility. Instead I'd take one of the substitutable Dodge variants, like Expeditious Dodge for highly mobile characters. And I'd buy Mobility as an armor special ability, meaning I'd have saved myself a feat. So an investment in two feats (Expeditious Dodge and Spring Attack) gives a pretty much guaranteed single attack with sneak damage each level (OK offense), and makes you pretty much impossible to hit as you'll Spring away and Hide in Plain Sight (great defense).
yrogerg 09-18-07, 09:44 PM	You're correct that these are two rather sucky feats for a Rogue. I'd only recommend the combination if you're taking both a level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight; and the Spring Attack feat or the Dervish PrC (which gets Spring Attack at level 3). Even then, I wouldn't go straight Dodge + Mobility. Instead I'd take one of the substitutable Dodge variants, like Expeditious Dodge for highly mobile characters. And I'd buy Mobility as an armor special ability, meaning I'd have saved myself a feat. I'm inclined to disagree mildly about Spring. Much like Mobility and Combat Expertise, it's burning a feat to do something your extra ranks in Tumble can do almost as well (albeit more slowly). Its damage is about a 'guaranteed' as a Rogue ever gets, but Spring Attack happens to have the unfortunate side-effect of being rather easily foiled by a readied action. Though, being able to jump in and out of Hide as a non-action is nice. A bit too nice. I almost feel like the "move action after ranged attacks" thing is perhaps mis-applied to ranged attacks only.
yrogerg 09-18-07, 10:07 PM	The thing about TWF is this: Power Attack is considered to be a potent feat at most levels because THW fighters gain a 2 for 1 conversion of attack bonus to damage. TWF shatters this. In the hands of a rogue 20, the three feats give a much higher return when sneak-attack applies. Even TWF by itself gives what is, on average, a 11.66 for 1 return on the lost BAB, unless my math's way off. [35(the average damage of 10d6), divided by(-2*3 handed attacks+-6*1 off-hand attack, all divided by 4 attacks total)]. Yes, your attacks are less likely to hit, but so is the Power Attacking Barbarian's. The only difference is that the Power Attacking Barbarian isn't going out of his way to attack creatures that just lost their Dex bonus.
Keladelros 09-18-07, 11:43 PM	is TWF truly practical for an assasin though? I mean, DA and spells included? Isn't the job to try and kill the guy before combat begins or to keep it from coming at all?
yrogerg 09-19-07, 12:11 AM	is TWF truly practical for an assasin though? I mean, DA and spells included? Isn't the job to try and kill the guy before combat begins or to keep it from coming at all? If there's only one guy and your death attack always works, sure. It's nice to have the ability to be effective in combat more than once every four rounds, though. Note also that you don't need to use a particular action for Death Attack, so you can simply use it to lead off a full-attack.
Nazrat 09-19-07, 12:32 AM	Double post! Whoops.
Nazrat 09-19-07, 12:45 AM	Hey i'm building a rogue heading towards assassin and would like some help choosing feats. this is my first rogue character (i am relatively new), so any and all help will be much appreciated. First of all, check out the Craven feat from Champions of Ruin. It allows you to add your character level in damage to each SA. This will boost your damage output considerably (assuming you hit, of course). That brings me to my second item. I mentioned this in another thread, and its cheesy as hell, but a TWF assassin can benefit a metric ****-ton from a weapon equipped with a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape, p. 34). Just put a wand of Wraithstrike in it , Alter Self into a Troglodyte for an extra bite attack and some natural AC, and then go to town. You get way more out of all your extra attacks when all you have to hit is a bad guy's touch AC.