Rules help: Combat actions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rules help: Combat actions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Romulus68
03-23-07, 10:06 AM Set up:

I am a Cleric.
I'm standing next to a party member.
I'm inside an enemies threat range.
I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member.
We rolled intiative and I got a 5.
The enemy rolled and got a 16.

I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP).

Question:

Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell)

This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc.

For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round?

What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round. Thus, you get your Combat Expertise bonus (and penalities on AOP's) from the start. So, if a bad guy goes before you then your AC is improved for his attack rolls.

Thanks in advance for the help.
Leilond
03-23-07, 10:12 AM Set up:

I am a Cleric.
I'm standing next to a party member.
I'm inside an enemies threat range.
I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member.
We rolled intiative and I got a 5.
The enemy rolled and got a 16.

I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP).

Question:

Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell)

1) You cannot "announce" nothing until your turn
2) "Fighting Defensively" require a "to hit roll"... you cannot "Fighting Defensively" and "cast a spell".

This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc.

For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round?

It starts at your turn and the effect last until the beginning of YOUR next turn
Captain Casualty
03-23-07, 10:16 AM Set up:

I am a Cleric.
I'm standing next to a party member.
I'm inside an enemies threat range.
I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member.
We rolled intiative and I got a 5.
The enemy rolled and got a 16.

I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP).

Question:

Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell)

This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc.

For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round?

What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round. Thus, you get your Combat Expertise bonus (and penalities on AOP's) from the start. So, if a bad guy goes before you then your AC is improved for his attack rolls.

Thanks in advance for the help.The simple guideline is that you cannot do anything until you get to do something!

Yes you have to wait for your action before you get to do anything and that includes fighting defensively.

One init roll is right - declaring at the start of each round your feats seems a bit strange but ok fair enough. The effects only start when you get to start doing something though.
jaelis
03-23-07, 10:25 AM Leilond is right. Your actions all occur on your own turn, so things like fighting defensively, power attack, and dodge all take effect at the beginning of your turn. Also, you can't fight defensively and cast a spell at same time (unless the spell is quickened etc.)
Romulus68
03-23-07, 11:09 AM Leilond is right. Your actions all occur on your own turn, so things like fighting defensively, power attack, and dodge all take effect at the beginning of your turn. Also, you can't fight defensively and cast a spell at same time (unless the spell is quickened etc.)

Ah, misread/misunderstood "Casting Def" and "Fighting Def." I see the differences now. We've only played about 6 sessions on 3.5 rules (comming from 2nd ed).

With everything activating on your action I see the importance of getting the Initaitive.

Small note: While researching this I found we are doing spells a little wrong. With respect to having stuff in your hands. ie....Cleric with a Heavy Shield and a weapon. We need to change that to a Light Shield.
TrustTymora
03-23-07, 02:02 PM It simply appears that you may not be carrying actions for complete round.

Remember your cleric on Init:5 can announce he is fighting defensively. He is not fighting defensively for all those that acted before him but is fighting defensive for all attacks that occur up to the start of his next action which happens again on round 5.

So rnd1:

Init 16: enemy attacks cleric (cleric is not fighting defensively)
Init 5: cleric attacks (fighting defensively)

rnd2:
Init 16: enemy attacks cleric (cleric is fighting defensively at this point and gains benefits)
Init 5: cleric acts choosing to fight defensively or not etc.

Remember that a round has two meanings similar to the word month. Month may be January or it may be a period of time say from the 15th of Sept to 15th of October.

When your cleric fights defensively for a round. It is from his Init 5 to just before his Init 5 the next round.

TT
Kradlo
03-23-07, 05:43 PM There are big differences between 2nd edition and 3.5 (all for the good, in my opinion). When combat occurs, each combatant is flat-footed until he has taken his first action. That means your cleric with initiative 5 would not get the chance to fight defensively, or gain his Dex bonus to AC, or use the Dodge feat, etc., until his action.

As for the heavy shield, a cleric need a free hand to make somatic gestures for his spells that have somatic components (which is most of them). A heavy shield will preclude that hand from being used, and it's a move action to remove the shield. With a light shield, you can hold an item (like a torch), but not do more than that, i.e., you can't make somatic gestures.

Now a buckler is a different matter. A buckler is simply strapped to your forearm, and you can use it for its shield bonus to AC, or you can do just about anything else you want with the hand (but lose the shield bonus to AC). That way, your cleric can have his heavy mace in one hand, a buckler strapped to his other arm, and alternate between casting spells and shielding himself as he chooses.
TrustTymora
03-24-07, 03:03 AM With a light shield, you can hold an item (like a torch), but not do more than that, i.e., you can't make somatic gestures.

Not sure, I would have to look but I think you can make somatic gestures with the hand using a light shield.

TT
Aminvelos
03-24-07, 11:51 AM IDK that's a dm ruling I'd say. Lets say you here something and down a dark corridor which you cannot see and you fire your bow. Lets assume it's a 10 foot wide corridor and you happening to be attacking a large ant 50% for cover since you can't see. you make the roll.

Apparently you can attack the "darkness" if you can attack the darkness you, can attack the air defensively.

While it's not in the rule book I've found most dm's find standing in a defensive stance, making just as much sense as fighting defensively.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-24-07, 12:24 PM > What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat
> and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round.

It's normal to use one initiative roll for the combat - it simply sets the turn order for each round.

However, unlike 1E/2E, 3E does not involve everyone declaring actions at the start of the round. You individually take your actions when your turn comes up.

These actions may have consequences which last until your next turn (or beyond), but the beginning/end of the round is essentially transparent to this. (When you fight defensively or use power attack, the modifiers apply until your next turn, not until the end of the round.)

Moreover, you can decide on what your actions will be as you take them, during your own turn. You don't need to declare your entire turn worth of actions at the start of your turn.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romulus68 03-23-07, 10:06 AM	Set up: I am a Cleric. I'm standing next to a party member. I'm inside an enemies threat range. I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member. We rolled intiative and I got a 5. The enemy rolled and got a 16. I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP). Question: Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell) This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc. For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round? What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round. Thus, you get your Combat Expertise bonus (and penalities on AOP's) from the start. So, if a bad guy goes before you then your AC is improved for his attack rolls. Thanks in advance for the help.
Leilond 03-23-07, 10:12 AM	Set up: I am a Cleric. I'm standing next to a party member. I'm inside an enemies threat range. I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member. We rolled intiative and I got a 5. The enemy rolled and got a 16. I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP). Question: Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell) 1) You cannot "announce" nothing until your turn 2) "Fighting Defensively" require a "to hit roll"... you cannot "Fighting Defensively" and "cast a spell". This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc. For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round? It starts at your turn and the effect last until the beginning of YOUR next turn
Captain Casualty 03-23-07, 10:16 AM	Set up: I am a Cleric. I'm standing next to a party member. I'm inside an enemies threat range. I want to cast Cure ***** Wounds on my party member. We rolled intiative and I got a 5. The enemy rolled and got a 16. I plan to announce that I'm fighting defensively and will make a Concentration check to cast the spell without provoking an Attack of Opportunity (AOP). Question: Do I announce the "Fighting Defensively" at the beginning of the combat round before anyone has taken an action or do I announce I'm "Fighting Defensively" on my Init of 5? (I know I make the Concentration check on Init 5 as I attempt to cast the Cure spell) This same question applies to other Feats/Actions as well. ie.....Combat Expertise, fighting withdraw, Many Shot, etc. For example: Does your combat expertise kick in on your init or does it start at the beginning of that combat round? What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round. Thus, you get your Combat Expertise bonus (and penalities on AOP's) from the start. So, if a bad guy goes before you then your AC is improved for his attack rolls. Thanks in advance for the help.The simple guideline is that you cannot do anything until you get to do something! Yes you have to wait for your action before you get to do anything and that includes fighting defensively. One init roll is right - declaring at the start of each round your feats seems a bit strange but ok fair enough. The effects only start when you get to start doing something though.
jaelis 03-23-07, 10:25 AM	Leilond is right. Your actions all occur on your own turn, so things like fighting defensively, power attack, and dodge all take effect at the beginning of your turn. Also, you can't fight defensively and cast a spell at same time (unless the spell is quickened etc.)
Romulus68 03-23-07, 11:09 AM	Leilond is right. Your actions all occur on your own turn, so things like fighting defensively, power attack, and dodge all take effect at the beginning of your turn. Also, you can't fight defensively and cast a spell at same time (unless the spell is quickened etc.) Ah, misread/misunderstood "Casting Def" and "Fighting Def." I see the differences now. We've only played about 6 sessions on 3.5 rules (comming from 2nd ed). With everything activating on your action I see the importance of getting the Initaitive. Small note: While researching this I found we are doing spells a little wrong. With respect to having stuff in your hands. ie....Cleric with a Heavy Shield and a weapon. We need to change that to a Light Shield.
TrustTymora 03-23-07, 02:02 PM	It simply appears that you may not be carrying actions for complete round. Remember your cleric on Init:5 can announce he is fighting defensively. He is not fighting defensively for all those that acted before him but is fighting defensive for all attacks that occur up to the start of his next action which happens again on round 5. So rnd1: Init 16: enemy attacks cleric (cleric is not fighting defensively) Init 5: cleric attacks (fighting defensively) rnd2: Init 16: enemy attacks cleric (cleric is fighting defensively at this point and gains benefits) Init 5: cleric acts choosing to fight defensively or not etc. Remember that a round has two meanings similar to the word month. Month may be January or it may be a period of time say from the 15th of Sept to 15th of October. When your cleric fights defensively for a round. It is from his Init 5 to just before his Init 5 the next round. TT
Kradlo 03-23-07, 05:43 PM	There are big differences between 2nd edition and 3.5 (all for the good, in my opinion). When combat occurs, each combatant is flat-footed until he has taken his first action. That means your cleric with initiative 5 would not get the chance to fight defensively, or gain his Dex bonus to AC, or use the Dodge feat, etc., until his action. As for the heavy shield, a cleric need a free hand to make somatic gestures for his spells that have somatic components (which is most of them). A heavy shield will preclude that hand from being used, and it's a move action to remove the shield. With a light shield, you can hold an item (like a torch), but not do more than that, i.e., you can't make somatic gestures. Now a buckler is a different matter. A buckler is simply strapped to your forearm, and you can use it for its shield bonus to AC, or you can do just about anything else you want with the hand (but lose the shield bonus to AC). That way, your cleric can have his heavy mace in one hand, a buckler strapped to his other arm, and alternate between casting spells and shielding himself as he chooses.
TrustTymora 03-24-07, 03:03 AM	With a light shield, you can hold an item (like a torch), but not do more than that, i.e., you can't make somatic gestures. Not sure, I would have to look but I think you can make somatic gestures with the hand using a light shield. TT
Aminvelos 03-24-07, 11:51 AM	IDK that's a dm ruling I'd say. Lets say you here something and down a dark corridor which you cannot see and you fire your bow. Lets assume it's a 10 foot wide corridor and you happening to be attacking a large ant 50% for cover since you can't see. you make the roll. Apparently you can attack the "darkness" if you can attack the darkness you, can attack the air defensively. While it's not in the rule book I've found most dm's find standing in a defensive stance, making just as much sense as fighting defensively.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-24-07, 12:24 PM	> What we do now: We currently use only ONE init roll for the whole combat > and we announce feats/actions at the start of each round. It's normal to use one initiative roll for the combat - it simply sets the turn order for each round. However, unlike 1E/2E, 3E does not involve everyone declaring actions at the start of the round. You individually take your actions when your turn comes up. These actions may have consequences which last until your next turn (or beyond), but the beginning/end of the round is essentially transparent to this. (When you fight defensively or use power attack, the modifiers apply until your next turn, not until the end of the round.) Moreover, you can decide on what your actions will be as you take them, during your own turn. You don't need to declare your entire turn worth of actions at the start of your turn.