Runestaffs and UMD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Runestaffs and UMD [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
IMarvinTPA
08-14-07, 11:45 AM Hi,
I can't find too much about if a character can use "Use Magic Device" on a runestaff. If i read what you are attempting to do correctly, you basically try to be a Sorcerer of X level that can cast that level of spell and expend the slot. Thus for a runestaff with a 1st level spell, you'd need to make a DC 21 UMD check to fake being a sorcerer. But if you need a 3rd level spell, you need DC 26 to fake having 3rd level spell slots of a 6th level sorcerer. (I'm not sure using a Wizard would be a good idea from the fact that you don't get a chance to prepare the slot.)

If so, these things are cheap and sweet!

How many spell slots can you fake per day of a level? Could you fake a different class for more slots (Warmage, Beguiler, etc)?

IMarv
jaelis
08-14-07, 12:04 PM Here's what customer service has to say:

Can a character with sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device activate and cast spells with a runestaff or similar item that requires the user to sacrifice spell slots? The argument is that this can be done using the Emulate a Class Feature rules.

No they cannot. They have nothing to sacrifice.

AFAIK, this hasn't made it to the FAQ though.
tarkin
08-14-07, 12:13 PM People read UMD once and forget what it says.

UMD is not "Fool any magic item into doing anything you want it to."

UMD has specific abilities described, both in general and specific.

General/Principle: Unless you are an Artificer or a Warlock with special wierd class abilities: UMD ONLY LETS YOU ACTIVATE A MAGIC ITEM Nothing else.

It does not grant you abilities you do not have. It does not let you use a magic item better than the minimum possible. It does not give you abilities that it improves, it only improves them. Nor does it let you do things that are neccessary for the magic item to be usefull.

Specifics:

Activate blindly
Decipher a written spell
Use a scroll
Use a wand/Staff
Emulate a class feature
Emulate an ability score
Emulate a race
Emulate an alignment

I can see exampanding it to let you use any other magic item that is created with restrictions, but it should not suddenly be granting you powers you don't already have. It lets you use the items, not abuse them.

That kind of thing should be reserved for poorly written class/prestige class powers such as Artificer or Warlock (They both should have used Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana, not UMD. Honestly, don't these people read the skills before they pick one?)
IMarvinTPA
08-14-07, 12:33 PM Here's what customer service has to say:

AFAIK, this hasn't made it to the FAQ though.

It is not yet in the FAQ.

IMarv
IMarvinTPA
08-14-07, 12:41 PM ...
I'm attempting:
Emulate a Class Feature (Sorcerer [Spells])
in the act of activating a Runestaff.

This is all theoretical right now, so I'm not attached to the idea yet.
I'm not sure if you'd need to make two checks. One for having spell slots and another for having a spell list.

Tell me how this is different than a rogue using a magic chalice that takes turn attempts to power.

IMarv
ravenshrike
08-14-07, 12:43 PM 'locks can do it, as could artificers. Simply because they have magic energy with which to power the item, in the case of the warlock more or less infinite magic energy.

After all, it would be pretty ****ing stupid for a 'lock to be able to create a runestaff and then not use it.
Dalthbar
08-14-07, 12:50 PM 'locks can do it, as could artificers. Simply because they have magic energy with which to power the item, in the case of the warlock more or less infinite magic energy.
Warlocks don't have spell slots. I don't believe Artificers have any either.

So how can they sacrifice a spell slot that they don't have?

It's not just "random magical energy" that's being used.

After all, it would be pretty ****ing stupid for a 'lock to be able to create a runestaff and then not use it.
Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different?
jaelis
08-14-07, 12:53 PM Tell me how this is different than a rogue using a magic chalice that takes turn attempts to power.

Once again I can give you Cust Serv's response.

Would the same logic apply to an item or effect that required the sacrifice of a turn undead attempt, a paladin's smite good ability, or other daily-use effect? The Player's Handbook entry talks about a rogue using UMD to activate a chalice that requires a turn undead attempt, and this has always been a little confusing.

It's not the same thing. You're not really "sacrificing" a turn undead attempt. You're emulating an ability.

But with a Runestaff, the required spells to sacrifice are an actual resource outside the activation of the item itself and cannot be performed because you don't have anything to sacrifice.

I should say that I agree with both of these answers. I think the key is the notion of "sacrificing" vs "using". If the chalice required the user to sacrifice a turn undead attempt, then a rogue couldn't UMD it. To see the difference, imaging a cleric activating the chalice while some zombies were around. Would the zombies be turned? If yes, then the cleric is just using the ability to trigger the chalice and a rogue could do the same. If no, then the cleric is actually sacrificing a turn attempt to "power" the chalice, and a rogue couldn't duplicate that.

In the case of the runestaff, you are sacrificing a slot. You could imagine a different item that generated a spell effect whenever the user cast an appropriate spell. Like, I cast a fireball and the staff automatically casts protection from energy (fire) on me. I think a rogue would be able to activate that hypothetical item by emulating the spell casting ability.
Knightblde
08-14-07, 01:06 PM There is no way you could use UMD on a runestaff. It would break the game. Basically you would have an item that is limited in its uses per day/based on the spell you give up, and make it a neverending wand of lots of spells.

Do you think it makes since that just because you have a 'runestaff of fireball' (should one exist) that as long as you roll high enough on a UMD check you can cast a fireball EACH ROUND?!

That alone should tell you that you can't do it.
IMarvinTPA
08-14-07, 01:30 PM Devil's advocate is done.

(The runestaff's power can only be used 3 or fewer times per day per spell, so that would definitely limit you.)

Two more twists:
UMD on a regular staff, use its charge to power a runestaff.

UMD on a Bard's CLW, CMD, CSW runestaff used by a Wizard to emulate having those spells on his list and powering it with his normal wizard slots.

IMarv
jaelis
08-14-07, 02:02 PM UMD on a regular staff, use its charge to power a runestaff.

I'd say no, whether UMD were involved or not. A sorc who was out of 3rd level spells couldn't use a reguar staff or wand to power a runestaff.

UMD on a Bard's CLW, CMD, CSW runestaff used by a Wizard to emulate having those spells on his list and powering it with his normal wizard slots.

I'd say yes. Pretending that a spell is on your spell list is exactly what UMD is supposed to do.
PurinaDragonChow
08-14-07, 04:29 PM Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different?

Exactly. Who makes a suit of magical plate mail? Not a fighter.
ravenshrike
08-14-07, 10:11 PM Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different?

Name one please. Seriously. I want to know. Now, they may not be proficient in it's usage(magical full plate), but they can sure as hell still use it.

In all seriousness, it's not like it comes anywhere near close to breaking the game until epic levels. At which point everything's broken anyway.
jaelis
08-14-07, 10:34 PM Name one please.
Claiming that a wizard can use full plate is pretty bogus. There's lots of items that a wizard can make that would be very non-optimal for him. But if you want examples of wondrous items that a pure wizard could create but simply not use at all, how about:

bronze or iron horn of valhalla
horseshoes of speed (or of a zephyr)
prayer bead of summons
druid's vestment
ksbsnowowl
08-14-07, 11:00 PM What are these runestaffs you speak of, and where are they found?

I'm guessing Magic Item Compendium, but I don't own it to check.
jaelis
08-15-07, 09:09 AM You can read about them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) (and one more sample here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070306a)).
ksbsnowowl
08-15-07, 09:31 AM Thanks!
Merestil Haye
08-15-07, 12:12 PM Hi,
I can't find too much about if a character can use "Use Magic Device" on a runestaff. If i read what you are attempting to do correctly, you basically try to be a Sorcerer of X level that can cast that level of spell and expend the slot. Thus for a runestaff with a 1st level spell, you'd need to make a DC 21 UMD check to fake being a sorcerer. But if you need a 3rd level spell, you need DC 26 to fake having 3rd level spell slots of a 6th level sorcerer. (I'm not sure using a Wizard would be a good idea from the fact that you don't get a chance to prepare the slot.)

If so, these things are cheap and sweet!There was a huge debate around here somewhere when MIC came out about UMD and Runestaffs. I think the general consensus was that you can fool Runestaffs into thinking you have a spell on your class spell list, and then activate the Runestaff if you expend an arcane spellslot of the right level that you have.

These items would be excellent for Beguilers who have a high number of slots, a restricted class spell list, and UMD as a class skill.

How many spell slots can you fake per day of a level? Could you fake a different class for more slots (Warmage, Beguiler, etc)?

IMarvHow many do you have? Not can fake - actually have from levels in spellcasting classes that you have? Of course you're also subject to the individual staff's limitation on activations per day.

As far as the UMD example in the PHB is concerned, either it needs rewriting or CustServ are wrong. The description of the item's activation implies that the user must actually channel energy into the chalice, not merely be able to do it.... a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead.(Bolding mine).

To support CustServ the wording should be something like "... a magic chalice that can be activated only by a character with the ability to turn (not rebuke) undead, such as a good Cleric or experienced Paladin ..."

Thus there appears to be a discrepancy between the actual published text and the interpretation that CustServ are using as a basis for their rulings. Until that is cleared up I'm not going to go by an unpublished interpretation.

Who knows - maybe the new errata system or the Rules Compendium will clear this up?
Jaxgaret
08-15-07, 07:10 PM There was a huge debate around here somewhere when MIC came out about UMD and Runestaffs. I think the general consensus was that you can fool Runestaffs into thinking you have a spell on your class spell list, and then activate the Runestaff if you expend an arcane spellslot of the right level that you have.

These items would be excellent for Beguilers who have a high number of slots, a restricted class spell list, and UMD as a class skill.

I'm currently using Runestaves with a Warmage character in such a manner.

Three cheers for versatility.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IMarvinTPA 08-14-07, 11:45 AM	Hi, I can't find too much about if a character can use "Use Magic Device" on a runestaff. If i read what you are attempting to do correctly, you basically try to be a Sorcerer of X level that can cast that level of spell and expend the slot. Thus for a runestaff with a 1st level spell, you'd need to make a DC 21 UMD check to fake being a sorcerer. But if you need a 3rd level spell, you need DC 26 to fake having 3rd level spell slots of a 6th level sorcerer. (I'm not sure using a Wizard would be a good idea from the fact that you don't get a chance to prepare the slot.) If so, these things are cheap and sweet! How many spell slots can you fake per day of a level? Could you fake a different class for more slots (Warmage, Beguiler, etc)? IMarv
jaelis 08-14-07, 12:04 PM	Here's what customer service has to say: Can a character with sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device activate and cast spells with a runestaff or similar item that requires the user to sacrifice spell slots? The argument is that this can be done using the Emulate a Class Feature rules. No they cannot. They have nothing to sacrifice. AFAIK, this hasn't made it to the FAQ though.
tarkin 08-14-07, 12:13 PM	People read UMD once and forget what it says. UMD is not "Fool any magic item into doing anything you want it to." UMD has specific abilities described, both in general and specific. General/Principle: Unless you are an Artificer or a Warlock with special wierd class abilities: UMD ONLY LETS YOU ACTIVATE A MAGIC ITEM Nothing else. It does not grant you abilities you do not have. It does not let you use a magic item better than the minimum possible. It does not give you abilities that it improves, it only improves them. Nor does it let you do things that are neccessary for the magic item to be usefull. Specifics: Activate blindly Decipher a written spell Use a scroll Use a wand/Staff Emulate a class feature Emulate an ability score Emulate a race Emulate an alignment I can see exampanding it to let you use any other magic item that is created with restrictions, but it should not suddenly be granting you powers you don't already have. It lets you use the items, not abuse them. That kind of thing should be reserved for poorly written class/prestige class powers such as Artificer or Warlock (They both should have used Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana, not UMD. Honestly, don't these people read the skills before they pick one?)
IMarvinTPA 08-14-07, 12:33 PM	Here's what customer service has to say: AFAIK, this hasn't made it to the FAQ though. It is not yet in the FAQ. IMarv
IMarvinTPA 08-14-07, 12:41 PM	... I'm attempting: Emulate a Class Feature (Sorcerer [Spells]) in the act of activating a Runestaff. This is all theoretical right now, so I'm not attached to the idea yet. I'm not sure if you'd need to make two checks. One for having spell slots and another for having a spell list. Tell me how this is different than a rogue using a magic chalice that takes turn attempts to power. IMarv
ravenshrike 08-14-07, 12:43 PM	'locks can do it, as could artificers. Simply because they have magic energy with which to power the item, in the case of the warlock more or less infinite magic energy. After all, it would be pretty ****ing stupid for a 'lock to be able to create a runestaff and then not use it.
Dalthbar 08-14-07, 12:50 PM	'locks can do it, as could artificers. Simply because they have magic energy with which to power the item, in the case of the warlock more or less infinite magic energy. Warlocks don't have spell slots. I don't believe Artificers have any either. So how can they sacrifice a spell slot that they don't have? It's not just "random magical energy" that's being used. After all, it would be pretty ****ing stupid for a 'lock to be able to create a runestaff and then not use it. Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different?
jaelis 08-14-07, 12:53 PM	Tell me how this is different than a rogue using a magic chalice that takes turn attempts to power. Once again I can give you Cust Serv's response. Would the same logic apply to an item or effect that required the sacrifice of a turn undead attempt, a paladin's smite good ability, or other daily-use effect? The Player's Handbook entry talks about a rogue using UMD to activate a chalice that requires a turn undead attempt, and this has always been a little confusing. It's not the same thing. You're not really "sacrificing" a turn undead attempt. You're emulating an ability. But with a Runestaff, the required spells to sacrifice are an actual resource outside the activation of the item itself and cannot be performed because you don't have anything to sacrifice. I should say that I agree with both of these answers. I think the key is the notion of "sacrificing" vs "using". If the chalice required the user to sacrifice a turn undead attempt, then a rogue couldn't UMD it. To see the difference, imaging a cleric activating the chalice while some zombies were around. Would the zombies be turned? If yes, then the cleric is just using the ability to trigger the chalice and a rogue could do the same. If no, then the cleric is actually sacrificing a turn attempt to "power" the chalice, and a rogue couldn't duplicate that. In the case of the runestaff, you are sacrificing a slot. You could imagine a different item that generated a spell effect whenever the user cast an appropriate spell. Like, I cast a fireball and the staff automatically casts protection from energy (fire) on me. I think a rogue would be able to activate that hypothetical item by emulating the spell casting ability.
Knightblde 08-14-07, 01:06 PM	There is no way you could use UMD on a runestaff. It would break the game. Basically you would have an item that is limited in its uses per day/based on the spell you give up, and make it a neverending wand of lots of spells. Do you think it makes since that just because you have a 'runestaff of fireball' (should one exist) that as long as you roll high enough on a UMD check you can cast a fireball EACH ROUND?! That alone should tell you that you can't do it.
IMarvinTPA 08-14-07, 01:30 PM	Devil's advocate is done. (The runestaff's power can only be used 3 or fewer times per day per spell, so that would definitely limit you.) Two more twists: UMD on a regular staff, use its charge to power a runestaff. UMD on a Bard's CLW, CMD, CSW runestaff used by a Wizard to emulate having those spells on his list and powering it with his normal wizard slots. IMarv
jaelis 08-14-07, 02:02 PM	UMD on a regular staff, use its charge to power a runestaff. I'd say no, whether UMD were involved or not. A sorc who was out of 3rd level spells couldn't use a reguar staff or wand to power a runestaff. UMD on a Bard's CLW, CMD, CSW runestaff used by a Wizard to emulate having those spells on his list and powering it with his normal wizard slots. I'd say yes. Pretending that a spell is on your spell list is exactly what UMD is supposed to do.
PurinaDragonChow 08-14-07, 04:29 PM	Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different? Exactly. Who makes a suit of magical plate mail? Not a fighter.
ravenshrike 08-14-07, 10:11 PM	Why would that be stupid? A wizard with the Craft Wondrous Item feat could create all sorts of things that they, themselves couldn't use. Why is this any different? Name one please. Seriously. I want to know. Now, they may not be proficient in it's usage(magical full plate), but they can sure as hell still use it. In all seriousness, it's not like it comes anywhere near close to breaking the game until epic levels. At which point everything's broken anyway.
jaelis 08-14-07, 10:34 PM	Name one please. Claiming that a wizard can use full plate is pretty bogus. There's lots of items that a wizard can make that would be very non-optimal for him. But if you want examples of wondrous items that a pure wizard could create but simply not use at all, how about: bronze or iron horn of valhalla horseshoes of speed (or of a zephyr) prayer bead of summons druid's vestment
ksbsnowowl 08-14-07, 11:00 PM	What are these runestaffs you speak of, and where are they found? I'm guessing Magic Item Compendium, but I don't own it to check.
jaelis 08-15-07, 09:09 AM	You can read about them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) (and one more sample here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070306a)).
ksbsnowowl 08-15-07, 09:31 AM	Thanks!
Merestil Haye 08-15-07, 12:12 PM	Hi, I can't find too much about if a character can use "Use Magic Device" on a runestaff. If i read what you are attempting to do correctly, you basically try to be a Sorcerer of X level that can cast that level of spell and expend the slot. Thus for a runestaff with a 1st level spell, you'd need to make a DC 21 UMD check to fake being a sorcerer. But if you need a 3rd level spell, you need DC 26 to fake having 3rd level spell slots of a 6th level sorcerer. (I'm not sure using a Wizard would be a good idea from the fact that you don't get a chance to prepare the slot.) If so, these things are cheap and sweet!There was a huge debate around here somewhere when MIC came out about UMD and Runestaffs. I think the general consensus was that you can fool Runestaffs into thinking you have a spell on your class spell list, and then activate the Runestaff if you expend an arcane spellslot of the right level that you have. These items would be excellent for Beguilers who have a high number of slots, a restricted class spell list, and UMD as a class skill. How many spell slots can you fake per day of a level? Could you fake a different class for more slots (Warmage, Beguiler, etc)? IMarvHow many do you have? Not can fake - actually have from levels in spellcasting classes that you have? Of course you're also subject to the individual staff's limitation on activations per day. As far as the UMD example in the PHB is concerned, either it needs rewriting or CustServ are wrong. The description of the item's activation implies that the user must actually channel energy into the chalice, not merely be able to do it.... a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead.(Bolding mine). To support CustServ the wording should be something like "... a magic chalice that can be activated only by a character with the ability to turn (not rebuke) undead, such as a good Cleric or experienced Paladin ..." Thus there appears to be a discrepancy between the actual published text and the interpretation that CustServ are using as a basis for their rulings. Until that is cleared up I'm not going to go by an unpublished interpretation. Who knows - maybe the new errata system or the Rules Compendium will clear this up?
Jaxgaret 08-15-07, 07:10 PM	There was a huge debate around here somewhere when MIC came out about UMD and Runestaffs. I think the general consensus was that you can fool Runestaffs into thinking you have a spell on your class spell list, and then activate the Runestaff if you expend an arcane spellslot of the right level that you have. These items would be excellent for Beguilers who have a high number of slots, a restricted class spell list, and UMD as a class skill. I'm currently using Runestaves with a Warmage character in such a manner. Three cheers for versatility.