SA on somthing to big. [Archive] - Wizards Community

SA on somthing to big. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RunLikeHell
10-03-07, 05:29 PM I read somewhere that you can on get a SA on a creature up to 2 sizes bigger then you. What if you had a ranged weapon?
dman11235
10-03-07, 05:32 PM What? That's not true at all. Sneak Attack works on any sized creature. Where did you hear this ruling? I assume that "on" is supposed to be "only"
RobbyPants
10-03-07, 05:35 PM IIRC, I think this is an old 2E rule, or something like that. As dman11235 said, Sneak Attack works regardless of size in 3.x.
Vharuck
10-03-07, 05:38 PM While the OP wasn't totally correct, there is some truth to the idea that Sneak Attack doesn't work on creatures that are too large. Here's the definition of Sneak Attack:

Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

The bold and italicized part being the point of discussion. It gives no set definition, but mentions that it can be impossible to Sneak Attack. In other words, it's a DM's call when the rogue can only reach the limbs.
Orenmir
10-03-07, 05:54 PM This begs the question: What are vitals? Heart, head, neck, stomach, groin. The lowest possible "vital" might be considered the femoral artery or vein (inner leg, just below your crotch). For a large sized creature, that could be 6-8 feet off the ground -- out of reach for a small creature.

I can understand why the OP has concern.
Salla
10-03-07, 06:11 PM This begs the question: What are vitals? Heart, head, neck, stomach, groin. The lowest possible "vital" might be considered the femoral artery or vein (inner leg, just below your crotch). For a large sized creature, that could be 6-8 feet off the ground -- out of reach for a small creature.

I can understand why the OP has concern.

Perhaps, but considering its overall importance, I'd consider the Achilles Tendon to be pretty vital.

But as stated, it is 100 percent pure DM call on whether or not a particular creature's vital points are out of reach.
war_thog
10-04-07, 02:37 AM Vital spots are points vital to life.
Adjudicate as you feel necessary about what they are.

Commonly they are blood vessels and organs.

An achilles tendon, while necessary for walking, is not vital to life.
You wouldnt take extra damage from being stabbed there, you just wouldnt be able to walk *hamstring feat?*

Basically think - Would it kill me if someone shot me there?
Then decide if its vital.

Someone obvious ones....

Head
Neck
Heart
Lungs
Kidneys
Gut
Liver

Some less obvious ones
Femoral artery
Axillary artery

Being shot/stabbed here will kill you.

Having your elbow broken, your achilles cut, etc wont kill you, just disable you.

So yes if you couldnt reach one of these points for whatever reason, youre up **** creek. Go get a bow.
Or grow taller shorty.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-04-07, 03:34 AM I've searched the errata file and the 3.5 FAQ, and I haven't seen a rule that says a rogue can't sneak attack something that's larger than two sizes bigger.

However, I am almost positive that at one point in 3.5's history, that was in fact the rule. However, it's a lame rule and I'm glad there's no trace of it.

Regardless, even if your DM rules you cannot sneak attack with melee attacks against something two sizes larger than you, there's nothing that would say you couldn't sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
war_thog
10-04-07, 07:45 AM Well its not a strict ruling that you can't.

Its just that anything 2+ sizes larger than you is likely to have its vitals beyond your reach.

However a good way to look at it.......

Your reach in D's is 5ft regardless of height, weapon size etc. A weapon, in your arms can strike that distance from your shoulders. Roughly put.

So how far up can you reach? 5ft + height.
If a "vital region" would be within this distance, you can melee SA it. Its a rough guesstimation but it works.

Obviously if you have a reach weapon you can reach further.
ShinAkuma2
10-04-07, 10:08 AM Having your elbow broken, your achilles cut, etc wont kill you, just disable you.

Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :)

Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that.
Orenmir
10-04-07, 10:45 AM I would have to disagree. RAW states that an SA targets the "vitals" of a creature. "Vitals" are organs or body parts (such as crucial parts of the circulatory system) that you can't live without -- some lists of these have already been made on this thread.

Although a Sneak Attack doesn't completely incapacitize the "vital" organ when struck, it deals more than usual damage if it were a non-vital area of the body.
RobbyPants
10-04-07, 11:04 AM Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :)

Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that.
Well, are we talking about real life, or abstarct D&D HP damage? ;)

That's one thing about D&D is that (barring certain special feats or effects), you're still at full fighting capacity and mobility while at 1 HP. There is exactly one spot (0 HP - disabled) when you're still mobile, but not at full capacity. Other than that, you're either up and running (1+ HP), dying (-1 to -9 HP), or dead (-10 or lower HP). It's not a terribly realistic system, but at least it's semi-simple.
Killydd
10-04-07, 02:19 PM From Dictionary.com:
vi·tals /ˈvaɪtlz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vahyt-lz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–plural noun
1. those bodily organs that are essential to life, as the brain, heart, liver, lungs, and stomach.
2. the essential parts of something: the vitals of a democracy.

Using definition number two, the Achilles tendon, fingers, etc. are absolutely vital to continuing to fight effectively. These are also areas where you might score a critical hit that doesn't down the opponent.

Conceivably, cover or the like could prevent a sneak attack in the method described, but any attempt at such starts to break down the abstraction of people being throughout their square moving. Of course, an aberration or the like could conceivably be large enough that you don't get a good sneak attack in. Picture a giant spider-like thing that isn't hurt much by chopping off entire legs and you can only reach its knees, maybe. But even that might not work since it would probably be abstracted in a ton of hp.

hm, I think that last might be important. Anything that is "hard" to envision sneak attacking is also going to be hard to deal normal damage to, especially criticals.
RunLikeHell
10-04-07, 05:17 PM Dm says he found it in the SRD www.d20srd.org
But i cant find a damn things there.
Orenmir
10-04-07, 07:06 PM Dm says he found it in the SRD www.d20srd.org
But i cant find a damn things there.

You gotta look...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
war_thog
10-04-07, 07:53 PM Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :)

Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that.

Not in the same way.

You are disabled through unconsciousness in D's.

Those areas of damage don't affect the rest of the body.

You break an elbow and someone can keep fighting, just their arm is gone.

You knock them out.... :)

There is a variant rule that replaced called shot for those things.

While it is vital to not have a broken arm to fight well, its not the same as a vital region of the body to remain conscious and living.
You die at -10.
That wont happen from breaking your arm *D's ignores infection*

I hope no-one is trying to infer what I will call the "GTA" effect here.

Shoot out the tyre of a car a million times and it explodes.
Which would translate to --> Stab their hand repeatedly and they die.

Some people may go into shock from this and die from that or die from eventual blood loss. However that is a much slower process and completely different.

Basically for SA. If you could be rendered unconscious from striking that area, it can be a SA.
It not. Well take a guess. And I mean for everyone, not for a particular persons pain threshold.

Look at the hamstring feat, you sacrifice damage to reduce mobility.
It recognises that you are striking a less vital area and as such will do less damage. However you reduce their mobility as that area is necessary for something else, movement. Not life.
RunLikeHell
10-04-07, 08:06 PM You gotta look...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

But it doesnt say anything about difference in sizes.
Krusk
10-04-07, 08:28 PM The bold and italicized part being the point of discussion. It gives no set definition, but mentions that it can be impossible to Sneak Attack. In other words, it's a DM's call when the rogue can only reach the limbs.

Id hate to think that the monster/animal can use bite attacks from this high up but the only thing the rogue can reach is his head. Combat in Dnd is supposed to be one fluid round, in which all the actions happen at once. Also the creature is supposed to take up the entire X ft square. That is why there is no facing and such. The creature is assumed to be ducking and twisting and dodging all over that square facing in every direction at once in a constant state of motion. There is plenty of reason to think that a vital spot on the monster/giant/animal would happen during all of that moving to come into reach of the sneak attack.

Now if the animal is standing still and unaware of the attacker, and the defender is say a 40 ft tall giant, and the attacker is a 3 ft gnome, in a ditch. Yeah I can see someone having an issue with a brain stab/throat slit type sneak attack. But they should still have the option to slit the tendons, or stab a leg artery.

I dont claim to know the layout of giants veins and vital arteries and If a DM did as well, id probably ask them how or where they found this out.
wonlee76
10-05-07, 03:20 PM I think this "idea" or "house rule" came from a Rules of the Game Article (All about Sneak Attacks). That may be where lots of people think the +2 size rule sounds familiar but its not in the SRD or PHB.
kriskey
10-05-07, 06:04 PM Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that.

Although the rule specifically states you cannot sneak attack by hitting a creature's limbs. This is probably where the house rule comes from.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RunLikeHell 10-03-07, 05:29 PM	I read somewhere that you can on get a SA on a creature up to 2 sizes bigger then you. What if you had a ranged weapon?
dman11235 10-03-07, 05:32 PM	What? That's not true at all. Sneak Attack works on any sized creature. Where did you hear this ruling? I assume that "on" is supposed to be "only"
RobbyPants 10-03-07, 05:35 PM	IIRC, I think this is an old 2E rule, or something like that. As dman11235 said, Sneak Attack works regardless of size in 3.x.
Vharuck 10-03-07, 05:38 PM	While the OP wasn't totally correct, there is some truth to the idea that Sneak Attack doesn't work on creatures that are too large. Here's the definition of Sneak Attack: Sneak Attack If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. The bold and italicized part being the point of discussion. It gives no set definition, but mentions that it can be impossible to Sneak Attack. In other words, it's a DM's call when the rogue can only reach the limbs.
Orenmir 10-03-07, 05:54 PM	This begs the question: What are vitals? Heart, head, neck, stomach, groin. The lowest possible "vital" might be considered the femoral artery or vein (inner leg, just below your crotch). For a large sized creature, that could be 6-8 feet off the ground -- out of reach for a small creature. I can understand why the OP has concern.
Salla 10-03-07, 06:11 PM	This begs the question: What are vitals? Heart, head, neck, stomach, groin. The lowest possible "vital" might be considered the femoral artery or vein (inner leg, just below your crotch). For a large sized creature, that could be 6-8 feet off the ground -- out of reach for a small creature. I can understand why the OP has concern. Perhaps, but considering its overall importance, I'd consider the Achilles Tendon to be pretty vital. But as stated, it is 100 percent pure DM call on whether or not a particular creature's vital points are out of reach.
war_thog 10-04-07, 02:37 AM	Vital spots are points vital to life. Adjudicate as you feel necessary about what they are. Commonly they are blood vessels and organs. An achilles tendon, while necessary for walking, is not vital to life. You wouldnt take extra damage from being stabbed there, you just wouldnt be able to walk hamstring feat? Basically think - Would it kill me if someone shot me there? Then decide if its vital. Someone obvious ones.... Head Neck Heart Lungs Kidneys Gut Liver Some less obvious ones Femoral artery Axillary artery Being shot/stabbed here will kill you. Having your elbow broken, your achilles cut, etc wont kill you, just disable you. So yes if you couldnt reach one of these points for whatever reason, youre up **** creek. Go get a bow. Or grow taller shorty.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-04-07, 03:34 AM	I've searched the errata file and the 3.5 FAQ, and I haven't seen a rule that says a rogue can't sneak attack something that's larger than two sizes bigger. However, I am almost positive that at one point in 3.5's history, that was in fact the rule. However, it's a lame rule and I'm glad there's no trace of it. Regardless, even if your DM rules you cannot sneak attack with melee attacks against something two sizes larger than you, there's nothing that would say you couldn't sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
war_thog 10-04-07, 07:45 AM	Well its not a strict ruling that you can't. Its just that anything 2+ sizes larger than you is likely to have its vitals beyond your reach. However a good way to look at it....... Your reach in D's is 5ft regardless of height, weapon size etc. A weapon, in your arms can strike that distance from your shoulders. Roughly put. So how far up can you reach? 5ft + height. If a "vital region" would be within this distance, you can melee SA it. Its a rough guesstimation but it works. Obviously if you have a reach weapon you can reach further.
ShinAkuma2 10-04-07, 10:08 AM	Having your elbow broken, your achilles cut, etc wont kill you, just disable you. Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :) Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that.
Orenmir 10-04-07, 10:45 AM	I would have to disagree. RAW states that an SA targets the "vitals" of a creature. "Vitals" are organs or body parts (such as crucial parts of the circulatory system) that you can't live without -- some lists of these have already been made on this thread. Although a Sneak Attack doesn't completely incapacitize the "vital" organ when struck, it deals more than usual damage if it were a non-vital area of the body.
RobbyPants 10-04-07, 11:04 AM	Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :) Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that. Well, are we talking about real life, or abstarct D&D HP damage? ;) That's one thing about D&D is that (barring certain special feats or effects), you're still at full fighting capacity and mobility while at 1 HP. There is exactly one spot (0 HP - disabled) when you're still mobile, but not at full capacity. Other than that, you're either up and running (1+ HP), dying (-1 to -9 HP), or dead (-10 or lower HP). It's not a terribly realistic system, but at least it's semi-simple.
Killydd 10-04-07, 02:19 PM	From Dictionary.com: vi·tals /ˈvaɪtlz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vahyt-lz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –plural noun 1. those bodily organs that are essential to life, as the brain, heart, liver, lungs, and stomach. 2. the essential parts of something: the vitals of a democracy. Using definition number two, the Achilles tendon, fingers, etc. are absolutely vital to continuing to fight effectively. These are also areas where you might score a critical hit that doesn't down the opponent. Conceivably, cover or the like could prevent a sneak attack in the method described, but any attempt at such starts to break down the abstraction of people being throughout their square moving. Of course, an aberration or the like could conceivably be large enough that you don't get a good sneak attack in. Picture a giant spider-like thing that isn't hurt much by chopping off entire legs and you can only reach its knees, maybe. But even that might not work since it would probably be abstracted in a ton of hp. hm, I think that last might be important. Anything that is "hard" to envision sneak attacking is also going to be hard to deal normal damage to, especially criticals.
RunLikeHell 10-04-07, 05:17 PM	Dm says he found it in the SRD www.d20srd.org But i cant find a damn things there.
Orenmir 10-04-07, 07:06 PM	Dm says he found it in the SRD www.d20srd.org But i cant find a damn things there. You gotta look... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm
war_thog 10-04-07, 07:53 PM	Which is exactly what damage does if it's not enough to get the target to -10. :) Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that. Not in the same way. You are disabled through unconsciousness in D's. Those areas of damage don't affect the rest of the body. You break an elbow and someone can keep fighting, just their arm is gone. You knock them out.... :) There is a variant rule that replaced called shot for those things. While it is vital to not have a broken arm to fight well, its not the same as a vital region of the body to remain conscious and living. You die at -10. That wont happen from breaking your arm D's ignores infection I hope no-one is trying to infer what I will call the "GTA" effect here. Shoot out the tyre of a car a million times and it explodes. Which would translate to --> Stab their hand repeatedly and they die. Some people may go into shock from this and die from that or die from eventual blood loss. However that is a much slower process and completely different. Basically for SA. If you could be rendered unconscious from striking that area, it can be a SA. It not. Well take a guess. And I mean for everyone, not for a particular persons pain threshold. Look at the hamstring feat, you sacrifice damage to reduce mobility. It recognises that you are striking a less vital area and as such will do less damage. However you reduce their mobility as that area is necessary for something else, movement. Not life.
RunLikeHell 10-04-07, 08:06 PM	You gotta look... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm But it doesnt say anything about difference in sizes.
Krusk 10-04-07, 08:28 PM	The bold and italicized part being the point of discussion. It gives no set definition, but mentions that it can be impossible to Sneak Attack. In other words, it's a DM's call when the rogue can only reach the limbs. Id hate to think that the monster/animal can use bite attacks from this high up but the only thing the rogue can reach is his head. Combat in Dnd is supposed to be one fluid round, in which all the actions happen at once. Also the creature is supposed to take up the entire X ft square. That is why there is no facing and such. The creature is assumed to be ducking and twisting and dodging all over that square facing in every direction at once in a constant state of motion. There is plenty of reason to think that a vital spot on the monster/giant/animal would happen during all of that moving to come into reach of the sneak attack. Now if the animal is standing still and unaware of the attacker, and the defender is say a 40 ft tall giant, and the attacker is a 3 ft gnome, in a ditch. Yeah I can see someone having an issue with a brain stab/throat slit type sneak attack. But they should still have the option to slit the tendons, or stab a leg artery. I dont claim to know the layout of giants veins and vital arteries and If a DM did as well, id probably ask them how or where they found this out.
wonlee76 10-05-07, 03:20 PM	I think this "idea" or "house rule" came from a Rules of the Game Article (All about Sneak Attacks). That may be where lots of people think the +2 size rule sounds familiar but its not in the SRD or PHB.
kriskey 10-05-07, 06:04 PM	Sneak Attack isn't instant death, it's a targeted attack designed to hit weak points to drop a target faster. Breaking an elbow or slicing a key tendon or two would do exactly that. Although the rule specifically states you cannot sneak attack by hitting a creature's limbs. This is probably where the house rule comes from.