Saves as Skills!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Saves as Skills!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ibitak84
03-31-07, 11:55 AM Why is the base saving throw bonus fixed, like BAB, and why are saves not buyable like skills? The base bonus of a (good) save is nearly identical to the maximum rank in a cross class skill or half that if it is a "bad" save. I'd like to change the rules here so that saves are essentially a special type of skill.

Someone has probably thought of something like this before and came up with a better set of rules than I do here, but that's not gonna stop me now. ;) Still: I like it when players have many options to customize their characters, but I don't want to destroy the fragile balance of power between the different classes. Please tell me if you think the following house rule would be game-breaking!

SAVES AS SKILLS

Using this variant, characters can choose to buy "save ranks" instead of getting a fixed base save bonus (Any save bonus listed in the class table is ignored!).
Characters buy these save ranks the same way as skills and use skill points to do so. They do so at the same time when they'd usually spend skill points, too.

CLASS SAVES AND CROSS-CLASS SAVES
Just like there's class skills and cross-class skills, there are class saves and cross-class saves. Essentially, all the same rules apply. A rank in a class save costs one skill point, a rank in a cross-class save costs two.
The maximum ranks, however, are determined differently:
The maximum rank in a class save is half the maximum rank in a class skill (or equal to the maximum rank in a cross-class skill).
The maximum rank in a cross-class save is half the maximum rank in cross-class skill (or qual to a quarter of the maximum rank in a class skill).
Saves are class saves for a class if they'd usually use the "good" saving throw progression (+2 at first, +12 at twentieth level).

MULTICLASS SAVES AND PRERQUISITES/REQUIREMENTS
Multiclass characters buy saves the same way the buy skills. They spend 1 skill point for one rank in a save that is a class save for a class in which they have leveled, but 2 points for one rank if it was cross-class.
If a save is a class save for any of a character's classes, the maximum rank of that save is that of a class save.

Some feats and prestige classes have a minimum save bonus requirement. To fullfil these, a characters must have a number of ranks in the save equal to the bonus for which is asked.

BONUS SKILL POINTS
Because using this variant, characters have to spend skill points to gain saves, they gain more skill points as to be on par with characters generated via the standard method. Each class gains bonus skill points depending on how many class saves it has:

1 or 2 class saves: +1 skill points/level*
3 class saves: +2 skill points/level*
*At first level, characters gain four times the usual amoint of bonus skill points.

Note that this way, characters still have a lower skill point / save bonus total than usual characters. Such is the price of versality.
Thiez
03-31-07, 12:28 PM I think this is a horrible idea. It will give humans an extra boost (+1 skillpoint / level is nice), it will affect races with a penalty to int, and races with a bonus to int. It will break feats like 'open-minded' (+5 skillpoints IIRC). Skill Focus is nice compared to 'Iron Will', 'Lightning Reflexes', and 'Great Fortitude'.

IMHO, it does not add anything to the game but extra complexity, more min-maxing, and it does screw characters like monks.
Someone
03-31-07, 12:50 PM This new approach seems like more trouble than its worth. What determines how many "save points" a character gets to spend? Would it be a flat 3, or some other number? Could a character spend all or none of their skill points on saves, for example?

Also, the saves are either 1/2 or 1/3, this new way turns into 1/2 and 1/4, so poor saves would get worse. Lastly, how would multiclassing work? Could a character take a level of monk to make all their saves "class saves", and then dump skill points into them to get monk-like saves from non-monk classes?
DarkRhystar
03-31-07, 01:02 PM I also think this is a horrible idea.

It's just another skill sink which is very much not needed. Most classes don't get as many skill points as they could use as it is and skill tricks just made it worse.

Intelligence is a key stat of many classes, a luxury stat for everyone, and modifies the most or second most (Int/Dex are the top two) skills in the game. It doesn't need to be any better.

Once again, a horrible idea. :)
El_Machinae
03-31-07, 09:18 PM Saves can scale better than just regular baseline; class-switching, boosting feats, Kensai's "withstand", etc. It can be a focus if you want it to be.
StalkerEntreri
03-31-07, 09:27 PM Why is the base saving throw bonus fixed, like BAB, and why are saves not buyable like skills? The base bonus of a (good) save is nearly identical to the maximum rank in a cross class skill or half that if it is a "bad" save. I'd like to change the rules here so that saves are essentially a special type of skill.

Someone has probably thought of something like this before and came up with a better set of rules than I do here, but that's not gonna stop me now. ;) Still: I like it when players have many options to customize their characters, but I don't want to destroy the fragile balance of power between the different classes. Please tell me if you think the following house rule would be game-breaking!

SAVES AS SKILLS

Using this variant, characters can choose to buy "save ranks" instead of getting a fixed base save bonus (Any save bonus listed in the class table is ignored!).
Characters buy these save ranks the same way as skills and use skill points to do so. They do so at the same time when they'd usually spend skill points, too.

CLASS SAVES AND CROSS-CLASS SAVES
Just like there's class skills and cross-class skills, there are class saves and cross-class saves. Essentially, all the same rules apply. A rank in a class save costs one skill point, a rank in a cross-class save costs two.
The maximum ranks, however, are determined differently:
The maximum rank in a class save is half the maximum rank in a class skill (or equal to the maximum rank in a cross-class skill).
The maximum rank in a cross-class save is half the maximum rank in cross-class skill (or qual to a quarter of the maximum rank in a class skill).
Saves are class saves for a class if they'd usually use the "good" saving throw progression (+2 at first, +12 at twentieth level).

MULTICLASS SAVES AND PRERQUISITES/REQUIREMENTS
Multiclass characters buy saves the same way the buy skills. They spend 1 skill point for one rank in a save that is a class save for a class in which they have leveled, but 2 points for one rank if it was cross-class.
If a save is a class save for any of a character's classes, the maximum rank of that save is that of a class save.

Some feats and prestige classes have a minimum save bonus requirement. To fullfil these, a characters must have a number of ranks in the save equal to the bonus for which is asked.

BONUS SKILL POINTS
Because using this variant, characters have to spend skill points to gain saves, they gain more skill points as to be on par with characters generated via the standard method. Each class gains bonus skill points depending on how many class saves it has:

1 or 2 class saves: +1 skill points/level*
3 class saves: +2 skill points/level*
*At first level, characters gain four times the usual amoint of bonus skill points.

Note that this way, characters still have a lower skill point / save bonus total than usual characters. Such is the price of versality.

Why don't you just houserule that you can spend skill points to get Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude. Seems a lot easier; and a lot less game breaking since you can't get these feats more than once anyway
andinel
03-31-07, 09:44 PM Bad post. Sorry.
StalkerEntreri
03-31-07, 09:48 PM Bad post. Sorry.

Bad post. Instead of just saying something is bad why not tell him/her why it's bad? That way they can change their idea and maybe make it better and more balanced. Just a thought
andinel
03-31-07, 09:49 PM No, my post was bad. I guess I phrased it wrong.
StalkerEntreri
03-31-07, 09:53 PM Oh; I am sorry.
Leress
03-31-07, 10:20 PM This is not a very wise idea since skills can be easily risen to extremely high levels at very low character levels.
It also makes characters with more skill points per level (rogues, bards) have potential higher saves than ones with lower skills per level (fighter, paladins).
Gagnrath
03-31-07, 10:41 PM Kensia have the ability to turn reflex saves into concentration checks with is very very powerful....
I'd suggest being very careful with this as it makes him able to survive most traps easily and also to laugh at area effect spells.
SunTzuWarmaster
04-01-07, 10:43 AM As long as we are making all of th rogues and bard invincible to magic, I want to buy BAB points for my wizard.

If the fighter can make a will save like a monk, I want my wizard to grapple like a barbarian.

Also, how many people do you think will put ranks in Knowledge(the planes) or any knowledge, profession, or performance skill when they can add to their saves. It makes for ALOT more min/maxing, and it makes for worse roleplaying. Generally, this will suck up your game if your players have any brains.
Tichondrus
04-01-07, 10:56 AM And why not be able to spend ranks in getting better profencies on weapon/armor, or why not 4 ranks in "Thughness" to get the next hit die?
I'd love to have a wizards with no knowledges and d10 for hit points just by using ranks.
ibitak84
04-01-07, 02:11 PM Okay, the tenor seems fairly clear here - This is nothing that one should use in game. Just a few oberservations:

First off, this is not really meant to give characters better saves. The maximum ranks ensure that, by the way: Other then the fact that at levels 1 and 2 a character can have a base bonus of +1 in a bad game, single-class characters cannot really have better saves (even if all saves are maxed)! From level 11 on, their saves will be worse by 1.
The problem I didn't think of enough are the multi-class characters:

Also, the saves are either 1/2 or 1/3, this new way turns into 1/2 and 1/4, so poor saves would get worse. Lastly, how would multiclassing work? Could a character take a level of monk to make all their saves "class saves", and then dump skill points into them to get monk-like saves from non-monk classes?

As written above, yes. It's still two skill points for a Paladin to buy one rank in the Reflex save, but if he has a level of Rogue (or any other class with a good Reflex save) and enough skill points, he can boost it up to nearly the same value as a regular good save.
If I still wanted to implement this, I'd have to find some other way to determine maximum rank for mutliclass characters.

This new approach seems like more trouble than its worth. What determines how many "save points" a character gets to spend? Would it be a flat 3, or some other number? Could a character spend all or none of their skill points on saves, for example?

Up to the maximum rank, a character could choose to spend any number of his skill points on saves. So technically, a character with no ranks in any save would be possible.
(That option, though not to that extreme, is what I hoped to encourage with this. Give up some points on saves that a really good -or bad- anyways and move them to skills.)

I think this is a horrible idea. It will give humans an extra boost (+1 skillpoint / level is nice), it will affect races with a penalty to int, and races with a bonus to int.
Characters with a bonus to Int don't really get anything out of it. They cannot boost their saves higher than usual because of the maximum rank. (With the multiclass rule, however, everyone with a high Int would multiclass, likely taking a level of monk.)

Creatures with low Int would indeed suffer, I didn't think of that (since hardly anyone I know ever voluntarily plays something with a low Int score anyways). I guess this could be prevented by ruling the bonus skill points gained from having many class skills cannot be lost due to a low Int. (As in: Any levels does grant a minimum of 1 skill points as usual but plus those 1 or 2 bonus skill points.)

It will break feats like 'open-minded' (+5 skillpoints IIRC). Skill Focus is nice compared to 'Iron Will', 'Lightning Reflexes', and 'Great Fortitude'.
For Open-Minded, it's the same as with high Int.
Skill Focus, however, just wouldn't apply. :-) Saves would be bought like skills, but they'd still be saves. You'd have to take one of the other three to boost your modifier there.

IMHO, it does not add anything to the game but extra complexity, more min-maxing, and it does screw characters like monks.
Well, the extra complexity is, to a certain degree, what I wanted. More complexity means more means to individualize chars.
As above, everyone would take one-level-dips at multiclassing to gain the class save maximum on all saves, so more min-maxing is true (unless I'd come up with a different rule for multiclassing).
I don't really get the "monks are screwed" part - How do you mean that?
Thiez
04-02-07, 02:19 PM They gain 2 extra skillpoints per level, but they have 3 good saves, meaning (if they want to keep your good saves) you'll be losing1 skillpoint / level. And it's not like monks are the most powerful class in the game...
Maraxus
04-02-07, 02:43 PM All the characters loose points, that's why this is definitly bad.

Imagine Joe the Half-Orc fighter of average Intelligence (for Half-Orcs, this is 8 ). Woohoo, 2 skill points per level, he can't even pay for all the 3 saves if he choosed to never ever get a single point into a (normal) skill.

At least make it, that all characters get +3 skill points.
This should roughly create characters of the same power then now.

Sometimes the characters might exchange a bit of a save into some skill and sometimes characters with a lot of skills to spare and a good multi-classing-combination will put spare skill points into his saves.
Marcotic
04-02-07, 04:08 PM Perhaps, instead of just adding it on to the skills, you have 3 brackets for "save skills" Classes with one good save get 1 "Save skill" point per level. You would follow the 3+level rule of regular skills, it's just that this way, your not using your regular skill points to get your saves up. you wouldn't apply INT bonus to the number of skill points you could have. just a thought
Kurama Youko
04-02-07, 06:00 PM you know in ToB they have three maneuvers that work off your concentration skill score that can be used to replace your fort, reflex or will saves. However with maneuvers once you use them you have to use a recovery method to get them back.
Selfless_Id
04-02-07, 07:12 PM What I don't like about this idea is that one of the current classes are all balanced to eachother based on many factors -- one of which is Base Saves. If a class like Rogue wanted to be physically more withstanding they could simply expend more effort into raising their Constitution stat and aquire feats to off set the basic training as a rogue (ie high reflex).

I remember, a while ago, someone made a very respectable class creation system simular to 2nd edition. Two of the most expensive aspects you could purchase for your custom class were Warrior Base Attack Bonus and Monk Base Saves. I really feel that the rules already have a great deal of options for customizing your character and more specifically the saves.
liquidhypnotic
04-27-07, 12:50 AM I somewhat dig the core idea but I wouldn't tie the saves to skill points; why not have an entirely separate pool of "save points"?

This might get messy but: For every Good class save of the class you're going into, you get 3 save points, and for every Poor one, you get 2. In order to truly raise a save by 1, you need to spend 6 such points. It's ugly, certainly, but it's just a dismantling of how the save bonus works right now, except that it's hardcoded. (I assume you are familiar with the fractional save bonuses from UA? Check d20srd.org) This seems to be the best way to ensure that power levels cannot fluctuate much, as one can just dump all of their points into the same saves as before, and nothing changes.

Now, for added balance, I'd add that all saves must be lower than or equal to the higher of character level (or HD or whatever), or 3. That way, later on, someone like, say, a monk would be free to start shifting his saves around a little bit, allowing him to customize. Any character could siphon some points off from his or best saves and shore up some weaknesses.

Once again, this variant, as with all variants, would need to be played carefully and with discretion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ibitak84 03-31-07, 11:55 AM	Why is the base saving throw bonus fixed, like BAB, and why are saves not buyable like skills? The base bonus of a (good) save is nearly identical to the maximum rank in a cross class skill or half that if it is a "bad" save. I'd like to change the rules here so that saves are essentially a special type of skill. Someone has probably thought of something like this before and came up with a better set of rules than I do here, but that's not gonna stop me now. ;) Still: I like it when players have many options to customize their characters, but I don't want to destroy the fragile balance of power between the different classes. Please tell me if you think the following house rule would be game-breaking! SAVES AS SKILLS Using this variant, characters can choose to buy "save ranks" instead of getting a fixed base save bonus (Any save bonus listed in the class table is ignored!). Characters buy these save ranks the same way as skills and use skill points to do so. They do so at the same time when they'd usually spend skill points, too. CLASS SAVES AND CROSS-CLASS SAVES Just like there's class skills and cross-class skills, there are class saves and cross-class saves. Essentially, all the same rules apply. A rank in a class save costs one skill point, a rank in a cross-class save costs two. The maximum ranks, however, are determined differently: The maximum rank in a class save is half the maximum rank in a class skill (or equal to the maximum rank in a cross-class skill). The maximum rank in a cross-class save is half the maximum rank in cross-class skill (or qual to a quarter of the maximum rank in a class skill). Saves are class saves for a class if they'd usually use the "good" saving throw progression (+2 at first, +12 at twentieth level). MULTICLASS SAVES AND PRERQUISITES/REQUIREMENTS Multiclass characters buy saves the same way the buy skills. They spend 1 skill point for one rank in a save that is a class save for a class in which they have leveled, but 2 points for one rank if it was cross-class. If a save is a class save for any of a character's classes, the maximum rank of that save is that of a class save. Some feats and prestige classes have a minimum save bonus requirement. To fullfil these, a characters must have a number of ranks in the save equal to the bonus for which is asked. BONUS SKILL POINTS Because using this variant, characters have to spend skill points to gain saves, they gain more skill points as to be on par with characters generated via the standard method. Each class gains bonus skill points depending on how many class saves it has: 1 or 2 class saves: +1 skill points/level* 3 class saves: +2 skill points/level* *At first level, characters gain four times the usual amoint of bonus skill points. Note that this way, characters still have a lower skill point / save bonus total than usual characters. Such is the price of versality.
Thiez 03-31-07, 12:28 PM	I think this is a horrible idea. It will give humans an extra boost (+1 skillpoint / level is nice), it will affect races with a penalty to int, and races with a bonus to int. It will break feats like 'open-minded' (+5 skillpoints IIRC). Skill Focus is nice compared to 'Iron Will', 'Lightning Reflexes', and 'Great Fortitude'. IMHO, it does not add anything to the game but extra complexity, more min-maxing, and it does screw characters like monks.
Someone 03-31-07, 12:50 PM	This new approach seems like more trouble than its worth. What determines how many "save points" a character gets to spend? Would it be a flat 3, or some other number? Could a character spend all or none of their skill points on saves, for example? Also, the saves are either 1/2 or 1/3, this new way turns into 1/2 and 1/4, so poor saves would get worse. Lastly, how would multiclassing work? Could a character take a level of monk to make all their saves "class saves", and then dump skill points into them to get monk-like saves from non-monk classes?
DarkRhystar 03-31-07, 01:02 PM	I also think this is a horrible idea. It's just another skill sink which is very much not needed. Most classes don't get as many skill points as they could use as it is and skill tricks just made it worse. Intelligence is a key stat of many classes, a luxury stat for everyone, and modifies the most or second most (Int/Dex are the top two) skills in the game. It doesn't need to be any better. Once again, a horrible idea. :)
El_Machinae 03-31-07, 09:18 PM	Saves can scale better than just regular baseline; class-switching, boosting feats, Kensai's "withstand", etc. It can be a focus if you want it to be.
StalkerEntreri 03-31-07, 09:27 PM	Why is the base saving throw bonus fixed, like BAB, and why are saves not buyable like skills? The base bonus of a (good) save is nearly identical to the maximum rank in a cross class skill or half that if it is a "bad" save. I'd like to change the rules here so that saves are essentially a special type of skill. Someone has probably thought of something like this before and came up with a better set of rules than I do here, but that's not gonna stop me now. ;) Still: I like it when players have many options to customize their characters, but I don't want to destroy the fragile balance of power between the different classes. Please tell me if you think the following house rule would be game-breaking! SAVES AS SKILLS Using this variant, characters can choose to buy "save ranks" instead of getting a fixed base save bonus (Any save bonus listed in the class table is ignored!). Characters buy these save ranks the same way as skills and use skill points to do so. They do so at the same time when they'd usually spend skill points, too. CLASS SAVES AND CROSS-CLASS SAVES Just like there's class skills and cross-class skills, there are class saves and cross-class saves. Essentially, all the same rules apply. A rank in a class save costs one skill point, a rank in a cross-class save costs two. The maximum ranks, however, are determined differently: The maximum rank in a class save is half the maximum rank in a class skill (or equal to the maximum rank in a cross-class skill). The maximum rank in a cross-class save is half the maximum rank in cross-class skill (or qual to a quarter of the maximum rank in a class skill). Saves are class saves for a class if they'd usually use the "good" saving throw progression (+2 at first, +12 at twentieth level). MULTICLASS SAVES AND PRERQUISITES/REQUIREMENTS Multiclass characters buy saves the same way the buy skills. They spend 1 skill point for one rank in a save that is a class save for a class in which they have leveled, but 2 points for one rank if it was cross-class. If a save is a class save for any of a character's classes, the maximum rank of that save is that of a class save. Some feats and prestige classes have a minimum save bonus requirement. To fullfil these, a characters must have a number of ranks in the save equal to the bonus for which is asked. BONUS SKILL POINTS Because using this variant, characters have to spend skill points to gain saves, they gain more skill points as to be on par with characters generated via the standard method. Each class gains bonus skill points depending on how many class saves it has: 1 or 2 class saves: +1 skill points/level* 3 class saves: +2 skill points/level* *At first level, characters gain four times the usual amoint of bonus skill points. Note that this way, characters still have a lower skill point / save bonus total than usual characters. Such is the price of versality. Why don't you just houserule that you can spend skill points to get Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, and Great Fortitude. Seems a lot easier; and a lot less game breaking since you can't get these feats more than once anyway
andinel 03-31-07, 09:44 PM	Bad post. Sorry.
StalkerEntreri 03-31-07, 09:48 PM	Bad post. Sorry. Bad post. Instead of just saying something is bad why not tell him/her why it's bad? That way they can change their idea and maybe make it better and more balanced. Just a thought
andinel 03-31-07, 09:49 PM	No, my post was bad. I guess I phrased it wrong.
StalkerEntreri 03-31-07, 09:53 PM	Oh; I am sorry.
Leress 03-31-07, 10:20 PM	This is not a very wise idea since skills can be easily risen to extremely high levels at very low character levels. It also makes characters with more skill points per level (rogues, bards) have potential higher saves than ones with lower skills per level (fighter, paladins).
Gagnrath 03-31-07, 10:41 PM	Kensia have the ability to turn reflex saves into concentration checks with is very very powerful.... I'd suggest being very careful with this as it makes him able to survive most traps easily and also to laugh at area effect spells.
SunTzuWarmaster 04-01-07, 10:43 AM	As long as we are making all of th rogues and bard invincible to magic, I want to buy BAB points for my wizard. If the fighter can make a will save like a monk, I want my wizard to grapple like a barbarian. Also, how many people do you think will put ranks in Knowledge(the planes) or any knowledge, profession, or performance skill when they can add to their saves. It makes for ALOT more min/maxing, and it makes for worse roleplaying. Generally, this will suck up your game if your players have any brains.
Tichondrus 04-01-07, 10:56 AM	And why not be able to spend ranks in getting better profencies on weapon/armor, or why not 4 ranks in "Thughness" to get the next hit die? I'd love to have a wizards with no knowledges and d10 for hit points just by using ranks.
ibitak84 04-01-07, 02:11 PM	Okay, the tenor seems fairly clear here - This is nothing that one should use in game. Just a few oberservations: First off, this is not really meant to give characters better saves. The maximum ranks ensure that, by the way: Other then the fact that at levels 1 and 2 a character can have a base bonus of +1 in a bad game, single-class characters cannot really have better saves (even if all saves are maxed)! From level 11 on, their saves will be worse by 1. The problem I didn't think of enough are the multi-class characters: Also, the saves are either 1/2 or 1/3, this new way turns into 1/2 and 1/4, so poor saves would get worse. Lastly, how would multiclassing work? Could a character take a level of monk to make all their saves "class saves", and then dump skill points into them to get monk-like saves from non-monk classes? As written above, yes. It's still two skill points for a Paladin to buy one rank in the Reflex save, but if he has a level of Rogue (or any other class with a good Reflex save) and enough skill points, he can boost it up to nearly the same value as a regular good save. If I still wanted to implement this, I'd have to find some other way to determine maximum rank for mutliclass characters. This new approach seems like more trouble than its worth. What determines how many "save points" a character gets to spend? Would it be a flat 3, or some other number? Could a character spend all or none of their skill points on saves, for example? Up to the maximum rank, a character could choose to spend any number of his skill points on saves. So technically, a character with no ranks in any save would be possible. (That option, though not to that extreme, is what I hoped to encourage with this. Give up some points on saves that a really good -or bad- anyways and move them to skills.) I think this is a horrible idea. It will give humans an extra boost (+1 skillpoint / level is nice), it will affect races with a penalty to int, and races with a bonus to int. Characters with a bonus to Int don't really get anything out of it. They cannot boost their saves higher than usual because of the maximum rank. (With the multiclass rule, however, everyone with a high Int would multiclass, likely taking a level of monk.) Creatures with low Int would indeed suffer, I didn't think of that (since hardly anyone I know ever voluntarily plays something with a low Int score anyways). I guess this could be prevented by ruling the bonus skill points gained from having many class skills cannot be lost due to a low Int. (As in: Any levels does grant a minimum of 1 skill points as usual but plus those 1 or 2 bonus skill points.) It will break feats like 'open-minded' (+5 skillpoints IIRC). Skill Focus is nice compared to 'Iron Will', 'Lightning Reflexes', and 'Great Fortitude'. For Open-Minded, it's the same as with high Int. Skill Focus, however, just wouldn't apply. :-) Saves would be bought like skills, but they'd still be saves. You'd have to take one of the other three to boost your modifier there. IMHO, it does not add anything to the game but extra complexity, more min-maxing, and it does screw characters like monks. Well, the extra complexity is, to a certain degree, what I wanted. More complexity means more means to individualize chars. As above, everyone would take one-level-dips at multiclassing to gain the class save maximum on all saves, so more min-maxing is true (unless I'd come up with a different rule for multiclassing). I don't really get the "monks are screwed" part - How do you mean that?
Thiez 04-02-07, 02:19 PM	They gain 2 extra skillpoints per level, but they have 3 good saves, meaning (if they want to keep your good saves) you'll be losing1 skillpoint / level. And it's not like monks are the most powerful class in the game...
Maraxus 04-02-07, 02:43 PM	All the characters loose points, that's why this is definitly bad. Imagine Joe the Half-Orc fighter of average Intelligence (for Half-Orcs, this is 8 ). Woohoo, 2 skill points per level, he can't even pay for all the 3 saves if he choosed to never ever get a single point into a (normal) skill. At least make it, that all characters get +3 skill points. This should roughly create characters of the same power then now. Sometimes the characters might exchange a bit of a save into some skill and sometimes characters with a lot of skills to spare and a good multi-classing-combination will put spare skill points into his saves.
Marcotic 04-02-07, 04:08 PM	Perhaps, instead of just adding it on to the skills, you have 3 brackets for "save skills" Classes with one good save get 1 "Save skill" point per level. You would follow the 3+level rule of regular skills, it's just that this way, your not using your regular skill points to get your saves up. you wouldn't apply INT bonus to the number of skill points you could have. just a thought
Kurama Youko 04-02-07, 06:00 PM	you know in ToB they have three maneuvers that work off your concentration skill score that can be used to replace your fort, reflex or will saves. However with maneuvers once you use them you have to use a recovery method to get them back.
Selfless_Id 04-02-07, 07:12 PM	What I don't like about this idea is that one of the current classes are all balanced to eachother based on many factors -- one of which is Base Saves. If a class like Rogue wanted to be physically more withstanding they could simply expend more effort into raising their Constitution stat and aquire feats to off set the basic training as a rogue (ie high reflex). I remember, a while ago, someone made a very respectable class creation system simular to 2nd edition. Two of the most expensive aspects you could purchase for your custom class were Warrior Base Attack Bonus and Monk Base Saves. I really feel that the rules already have a great deal of options for customizing your character and more specifically the saves.
liquidhypnotic 04-27-07, 12:50 AM	I somewhat dig the core idea but I wouldn't tie the saves to skill points; why not have an entirely separate pool of "save points"? This might get messy but: For every Good class save of the class you're going into, you get 3 save points, and for every Poor one, you get 2. In order to truly raise a save by 1, you need to spend 6 such points. It's ugly, certainly, but it's just a dismantling of how the save bonus works right now, except that it's hardcoded. (I assume you are familiar with the fractional save bonuses from UA? Check d20srd.org) This seems to be the best way to ensure that power levels cannot fluctuate much, as one can just dump all of their points into the same saves as before, and nothing changes. Now, for added balance, I'd add that all saves must be lower than or equal to the higher of character level (or HD or whatever), or 3. That way, later on, someone like, say, a monk would be free to start shifting his saves around a little bit, allowing him to customize. Any character could siphon some points off from his or best saves and shore up some weaknesses. Once again, this variant, as with all variants, would need to be played carefully and with discretion.