Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Izzy 05-07-07, 10:24 AM	How do you do it? As an archer goes up in level the dmg from a bow does not. I was looking for any tips or suggestions the forum communtiy might have on how they have done it.
RobbyPants 05-07-07, 10:34 AM	How do you do it? As an archer goes up in level the dmg from a bow does not. I was looking for any tips or suggestions the forum communtiy might have on how they have done it. Well, typically, when any martial-based class goes up in level, their weapon damage does not. A 20th level fighter's greatsword still does 2d6 damage. Granted, he will be adding lots to it in modifiers... Still, there are lots of ways to add the damage to each attack for an archer: Be a fighter with Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery, etc... Be a ranger with favored enemy that you encounter often Be a rogue and sneak attack (you'll have to be within 30 feet and find a way to deny them their Dex bonus to AC) Be a scout and meerly move 10 feet between attacks (auto-damage boost from skirmish) Buy/find a magic bow with some damage-increasing mod on it (like flaming, shock, or frost). Remember that you can have multiple mods on one weapon (so, yes, flaming frost is a legal combo). Also, don't forget alignment based mods like holy, or bane weapons as well.
tarkin 05-07-07, 11:16 AM	Good advice for bow users. 1. Get Bracers of Archery. They are a key instrument and add as much as +2 to hit and +1 damage. 2. Take the feat Point Blank Shot. Well worth it. 3. Magic enchantments on bows and arrows overlap. So if you have a +5 bow, get +1 arrows with funky stuff on them like Holy, Bane, etc. Or do it the other way around, +1 bow with Speed, etc. and +5 arrows.
Izzy 05-07-07, 11:23 AM	If you look at all the modifiers you get in just str dmg from swinging a sword it starts to outdistance a bow dramatically. A level 20 fighters attack sequence using a +5 greatsword, and a 22 str, looks like this (assuming all attacks hit): Dmg from Greatsword w/ 5 attacks 10 -60 (average of 35) total points of damage. Dmg from str modifier landing 5 attacks 45 points of dmg Dmg from Magic enhancement +4 with 5 attacks is 20 points of dmg. 35 + 45 + 20 = 100 points of dmg. All this is figured without feats to modify the dmg, since the feats can be applied to either weapon with the same efficiency. The same fighter using a +4 Mighty Composite bow(4), will have an attack sequence that looks like this. Dmg from Bow w/ 5 attacks 5-40 (average of 23) total points of damgae. Dmg from str landing 5 attacks 20 Dmg from Magic enhancement +4 with 5 attacks 20 points of dmg. 23 + 20 + 20 = 63 points of dmg. All of this is figured without feats also. Looking that the full attack sequence of a scout using Skirmish you will realize that you are better off (for pure dmg) to use your full attack sequence. Dmg from Bow 1-8 average of 4 points of dmg. Dmg from Str 4 Dmg from Magic enhancement +4 with 1 attack is 4 dmg 5d6 dmg from skirmish 5-30 average of 18 4 + 4 + 4 + 18 = 30 points of dmg. :( So... bleh I am no brainiac so if these numbers seem screwy I am sorry.
starfire311 05-07-07, 12:06 PM	If you look at all the modifiers you get in just str dmg from swinging a sword it starts to outdistance a bow dramatically. A level 20 fighters attack sequence using a +5 greatsword, and a 22 str, looks like this (assuming all attacks hit): Dmg from Greatsword w/ 5 attacks 10 -60 (average of 35) total points of damage. Dmg from str modifier landing 5 attacks 45 points of dmg Dmg from Magic enhancement +4 with 5 attacks is 20 points of dmg. 35 + 45 + 20 = 100 points of dmg. All this is figured without feats to modify the dmg, since the feats can be applied to either weapon with the same efficiency. The same fighter using a +4 Mighty Composite bow(4), will have an attack sequence that looks like this. Dmg from Bow w/ 5 attacks 5-40 (average of 23) total points of damgae. Dmg from str landing 5 attacks 20 Dmg from Magic enhancement +4 with 5 attacks 20 points of dmg. 23 + 20 + 20 = 63 points of dmg. All of this is figured without feats also. you are comparing 1D8+str to 2D6+ 1.5str. You will ge tthe same results by comparing a longsword to a great sword as a long bow to a great swod why not compare the level 20 fighter using a long bow and a long sword one other huge advantage the level 20 archer has of over the level 20 meleer is that he will almost always get his full attack while the melee guy won't.
starfire311 05-07-07, 12:14 PM	how to increase damage with level is a whole other story though. archer should get bonuses from feats like Weapon spec, rapid shot or many shot et al. or get bonuses from class abilities like skirmish, favered enemy or sneak attack or get bonuses from magic items like bracers of archery, and enhancements on both bows and arrows. At level 20 you can afford to have a whole slew of different arrows, my old archer had +1 arrows various Banes, elements, holy and lawful, and of all different materials, +1 holy Evil outsider bane cold iron and +1 holy evil outsider bane silver arrows are great.
runestar 05-07-07, 12:23 PM	Don't forget the splitting weapon enhancement...:D
RobbyPants 05-07-07, 12:26 PM	One other thing that will make the melee characters shine is judicious use of Power Attack. When done properly, you can get some pretty potent returns for a relatively small penalty to hit. Now, I can't remember if this was a home-brew feat, or if I found it in some splatbook, but I remember seeing a feat that allowed you to do the same thing as Power Attack (-X to hit, +X to damage) with ranged weapons. The only two problems with this are: It's only a 1-for-1 return on damage. With a two-hander, Power Attack gives you a 2-for-1, and with the right PrCs and feats, you can get this much higher. There is a lack of feats that will increase the return on this one.
rone_leah 05-07-07, 12:30 PM	wait how did the greatsword guy get 5 attacks? without feats.
Dragonteuthis 05-07-07, 12:35 PM	Some people are pointing out that a melee fighter, when using a two-handed weapon, will be getting better damage modifiers than an archer. That's true, but they are forgetting one thing: The archer can easily keep himself out of reach of the monster's nasty claws/bite/trample/etc. The melee fighter is giving up a great deal of safety, but in return he's getting more damage modifiers. The archer is giving up those damage modifiers for a great deal of security. It's a trade-off. Incidentally, the archer can approximate a full attack with the Manyshot feat, as well. True, it's at a penalty to hit and all, but being able to move and *almost* full attack is an often underestimated tactical advantage. Don't begrudge melee their modifiers.
Izzy 05-07-07, 01:45 PM	Rone wins! I warned you all I am not good at this math thing! The numbers will have the same disparity though because the archer is not using feats either. Starfire I was doing all of this without using any feats to modify. And I understand that the str return on a greatsword is 1.5, but there is no bow that gives you str 1.5. The utility that range gives is not in question, I fully understand the benefits of range increments. The question was, does anyone have a good way to scale archery damage? I think Tarkin suggested the most viable route so far. But thanks for all the input.
Lotus Crane 05-07-07, 01:55 PM	The utility that range gives is not in question, I fully understand the benefits of range increments. The question was, does anyone have a good way to scale archery damage? Ah, but that's the thing: it's only fair that melee increases in damage faster than archery, because melee also increases in risk faster than archery. As an archer, you get to make a full attack from practically anywhere, and are at risk of taking anywhere from 0-1 attacks in return. A melee combatant has to close with his foes (meaning that for at least 1 turn, the archer out-damages him, because a ranged full attack still deals more than a melee standard attack), and is at risk of taking anywhere from 3-7 attacks in return. Do you really think it would be fair if archers could deal as much damage as melee characters? That being said, the main way for all characters to scale their damage with level, is through the use of magic items. Yes, I know it doesn't seem very heroic or cool, but D&D is designed in such a way that if you don't have roughly 760,000 gp worth of gear by 20th level, you'll die horribly. If your DM is being stingy with loot, it doesn't matter whether you're an archer or a melee combatant; if you don't have a +5 with-lots-of-properties weapon, you'll quickly become useless.
Derren S. 05-07-07, 02:56 PM	One thing you forget that bows have to be weaker than melee weapons. If they were not no one would use swords. The advantage ranged weapons have, namely range, is huge. While the fighter has to run around and often only gets a single attack a archer gets full attacks nearly all the times. And many opponents do not have a ranged weapon which means ranged fighters can damage enemies without being damaged in return. Also a bow user can stack twice the enchantments on his weapon than a swordfighter can (bow+arrow). That also increases his damage output.
Inigo Carmine 05-07-07, 04:53 PM	Advantage of bows over melee: - Almost always have a target in range - Almost always able to full attack - Can usually choose the best target on an immediate basis. Meleers have decisions like "Do I make 4 attacks on this dangerous yet less important enemy and kill him, or do I take an AoO from him, charge the enemy wizard and get one attack and hope to kill him before he has a chance of killing me and all of my allies. - Magic from bows and arrows overlap. If you know what you're up against, you can buy ammunition specifically for that threat, unlike melee weapons. If you know you're going up against an ancient evil Lich, you can get 20 undead Bane arrows to add to your +5 bow for much much cheaper than a meleer can turn his +5 sword into a +5 Undead bane sword. If later on you know you're going up against a dragon, you can buy dragonbane arrows for *much, much* less $$ than the meleer can turn his his +5 undead bane sword into a +5 undead bane dragon bane sword. - Defensive benefits: You are the target of less attacks, because it is difficult for enemies to full attack you because you aren't standing right next to them. Enemies that use ranged attacks are excluded of course ;). Meleers have their benefits as well, but I find their benefits lie mostly in the tactics available to them. Tripping, disarming, grappling and AoOs/reach (preferably without a dougnut hole). Their increased damage output per attack is usually the least of their strengths, no pun intended.
ravidubey 05-07-07, 07:20 PM	- Almost always able to full attack This is a massive advantage. The only counter balance is that ammunition is usually limited. Another huge advantage is Rapid Shot gives you another attack at a minimal penalty and the cost of a feat. Two-Weapon Fighting does so with the same penalties and lesser damage in the off hand weapon (unless you use a double-weapon-- another feat). How about Point Blank Shot giving +1/+1 within 30 feat. There is no melee equivalent. Lastly, someone mentioned Bracers of Archery-- there's no melee equivalent (that I've heard of, anyway). Competance bonuses of +1 attack and +2 damage can a big difference maker because the bonuses stack with Weapon focus and Weapon Specialization. At 6th level: MW Long Sword +6 BAB, +4 Str, +1 WF, +1 MW = +12/+7 1d8+6 per hit. Average damage vs AC 20 is 9.975. MW Mighty Longbow (+3) +6 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 WF, +1 MW, +1PB, -2RS = +11/+11/+6 1d8+6 per hit. Average damage vs AC 20 is 14.7. At 20th level: Long Sword+4 +20 BAB, +8 Str, +2 GWF, +4 Enh = +34/+29/+24/+19 1d8+16 per hit. Average damage vs AC 35 is 47.15. +4 Mighty Longbow (+4) and BArch +20 BAB, +8 Dex, +2 WF, +4 Enh, +1PB, +1BArch, -2RS = +34/+34/+29/+24/+19 1d8+14 per hit. Average damage vs AC 35 is 60.125. The bow is also more flexible since you can easily swap out different kinds of ammunition or differing effects, DR, etc. The LS can have power attack added, doesn't need ammo, and can benefit from the Two-Weapon fighting tree, but you won't get full attacks nearly as often. Imagine a melee fighter trying to hit flying opponents, enemies behind cover on a ledge above, or even ground-based opponents beyond his ability to reach via charge. He must close to gain his full attack. Usually all the archer needs is arrows and 5 feet of space.