Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 09-22-07, 06:30 PM	I know it's a bit late in the game to be working on a rules change, what with 4th Edition around the corner, but I'm currently gathering all of my 3/3.5 material together into a house rule document. My new job actually gives me evenings off now, so I'm running two weekly games. The Jump skill has always been odd to me. The first oddity is that an untrained jumper, according to the skill, could jump 20 feet 5% of the time, but only 1 foot 5% of the time as well; the variance in the jumps are excessive. Additionally, while Climb and Swim use essentially the same mechanic (set DC to move 1/4th speed as one move action), Jump uses its own mechanic (DC equals feet jumped with a multiplier). The World record for long jumps sets the top men's jumps at between 8.62 meters (28ish feet) and 8.95 meters (29ish feet) and women's jumps at between 7.3 meters and 7.5 meters. For the men's jumps, that's a DC 30 jump, rounding up for simplicity. The jumpers jump multiple times and get to take the best of their results, so we can assume that their "jump checks" are fairly high rolls; above 15 lets say; this means we need to make up another 15 points in modifiers. I'm under the assumption that they all have the Run feat, as most long jumpers are also sprinters, so that's +4. One could go as far and say that the specially made track and their shoes provide a +2 circumstance bonus (tool use), bringing us to +6. Giving them a base 15 strength seems reasonable enough, as sprinters are going to care more about speed then endurance (going off of default array stats for simplicity here); this brings the total modifier to +8 so far. This means we only need 7 skill points, which can be reached by 4th level (which also could bring a strength increase; meaning we wouldn't need the equipment bonus). So, all I've proved here is that those jumps are perfectly reasonable within the confines of the game, even assuming relatively low level stats. The problem is that even with a +15 Jump modifier, such a character could jump anywhere from 16 to 35 feet, with differences on the foot increments. My suggested change is to make it based on speed, with a set DC for long jump, running long jump, and high jump (I don't think there needs to be a running high jump, unless you're trying to clear distance and height; running doesn't seem to improve the height of my jumps when I'm trying to reach a basketball hoop). A long jump and high jump will be move actions, while a running long jump will be a full-round action (requiring 20 feet of running before the jump). The jumps will allow one to move one-quarter their speed (so the running long jump will have the lowest DC, the high jump the highest), with a -5 check penalty to move one-half speed (as with balance, climb, move silently, and other movement skills), and a -20 penalty to move one's full speed. With such a system, jumps will be more consistent. Let's say the running long jump is a flat DC 10 for a one-quarter speed jump; that sets the effective DC for a 30 foot jump (assuming 30 foot speed, as humans have) at DC 30, the same as before. But the range between one-half and full speed is 15 points; if a character could only hit that DC 30 jump check on a roll of 20 (having a +10 modifier), they'll make that jump 5% of the time, make a 15 foot jump on a roll of 5 to 19, and only a 5 foot jump on a roll of 1 to 4; that seems more consistent to me. I'm unsure what to set the other DCs at, though. And, even if I get reasonable DCs for the other jumps, I'm not sure if this would even model reality better than the other system; I'm searching for economy of actions here (having the jump skill require actions, instead of being made within other actions), but I am aware that someone could run and make multiple leaps within the span of 6 seconds (and if someone can run 120 to 150 feet in 6 seconds, I'm sure there could make numerous small jumps; that's what the triple jump is about after all). I'm at a point where I need some input. I'd like to consolidate things and have Jump use the same mechanics as Climb and Swim, but only if it makes things more realistic. I may have to find another solution to correct the oddity of the current jump rules.
BigBobSr6000 09-22-07, 07:47 PM	A quick rule of thumb or house rule I use is a DC10 + one-half of number of feet in long distance jump. EX: Pit is 18 feet across = DC19 to clear. If fail by 5 or less hit opposite ledge and have chance to grab edge and pull themselves up. They must have at least 10 feet of running distance prior to attempt. Standing long jump no room to run base DC15 instead of DC10 is used as above. Standing high jump is DC10 + height of Character. Of course all penalites and circumstance bounuses apply before final roll is made. Hope this helps. Feel free to use and abuse as needed.
FoulQ 09-22-07, 08:13 PM	If you are going for the realistic approach you might as well just eliminate magic
Xeviat-DM 09-22-07, 08:29 PM	If you are going for the realistic approach you might as well just eliminate magic Thanks for not helping. Honestly, what is the issue with trying to make the realistic mechanics of the game more realistic?
Tyler Do'Urden 09-22-07, 11:53 PM	The Jump skill has always been odd to me. ...the variance in the jumps are excessive. Agreed. Using 3d6 instead of 1d20 for jump checks normalizes it quite a bit.
Someone 09-23-07, 02:43 AM	The system you describe is the normal way you're supposed to do it. You don't roll the dice and then figure out the distance you jumped, you set a DC according to the distance to be jumped, and then you either succeed at the skill check or you don't.
AAB 09-23-07, 04:53 AM	Don't know if this will help you or not: In 3.5 the distance jumped is essentially your Jump result (check the table for the benchmarks) In 3.0 the distance jumped was basically your Jump result - 5. This is actually very close to real-world jumps on average. Don't know how to change the high variability of the checks. It's just a part of the system.
groveborn 09-23-07, 07:01 AM	D&D assumes that with improvements, your character can achieve godhood. Jumping seems less than important given that. Besides, no matter how great you are, at level 400, you still miss 5% of the time against a level 1 goblin. Eh.
Kouk 09-23-07, 09:23 AM	My suggested change is to make it based on speed, with a set DC for long jump, running long jump, and high jump (I don't think there needs to be a running high jump, unless you're trying to clear distance and height; running doesn't seem to improve the height of my jumps when I'm trying to reach a basketball hoop). A long jump and high jump will be move actions, while a running long jump will be a full-round action (requiring 20 feet of running before the jump). The jumps will allow one to move one-quarter their speed (so the running long jump will have the lowest DC, the high jump the highest), with a -5 check penalty to move one-half speed (as with balance, climb, move silently, and other movement skills), and a -20 penalty to move one's full speed. It might just be because I haven't slept in ... some amount of time, but I don't quite understand. You want to make Jumping into checks to move a quarter of your base move speed horizontally, a half your base move speed horizontally, etc.? I'm not sure how this is a helpful system to introduce as a house rule. If you just want to limit how far an untrained character can potentially Jump, while keeping things simple, maybe just say you can use the Jump skill untrained, but can't go past a DC 10 regardless of your actual result? Anyhow, PCs can do all sorts of crazy **** that makes no sense, due to pure skill or just luck. Just like they can "accidentally" hit a moving pixie with a bow at 300 yards at first level (roll of 20), or manage to miss the colossal-sized (and Prone) beached whale 1 foot away (with a roll of 1), they might just miraculously make a 20 foot long jump with no prior experience. EDIT: It is easier to think of "Jumping" as an attempt to hit a certain DC rather than a totally random amount of distance jumped. You set your sights on a 20ft long jump, and you either make it with inertia to spare, or you fall short by some amount. A low-level, untrained PC might have the capability of making a 20ft long jump on a roll of a 20, but if he was to aim for a 20ft Jump (say, across a chasm) he would most likely be... disappointed. An unskilled PC would usually set his sights lower or else accept the huge gamble that falling short would bring. If not rushed, you could just "Take 10" though, couldn't you? So could the Olympic runners, but they are trying to push as much out of themselves as possible (and are under a lot of pressure) so they probably wouldn't even want to "Take 10". I don't think you would normally rule that a character with an exceptional Jump check that happened to get a result of 40 would have to move that far when he only wanted to hop 5 feet right? It is a matter of "aiming" where you want to land. You succeed, or you fall short by some amount.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-23-07, 02:54 PM	Besides, no matter how great you are, at level 400, you still miss 5% of the time against a level 1 goblin. Eh. INFALLIBLE SWORDSMANSHIP [EPIC] Prerequsites: Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, BAB +30. Benefit: When wielding the weapon you chose for Epic Weapon Focus, you do not automatically miss on a natural 1. Add your attack bonus and compare to the target's AC as normal. Normal: A natural 1 on an attack roll always misses. I'm debating whether the save version should be three separate feats.
Someone 09-24-07, 02:14 AM	Isn't there also the epic variant rule where a 1 is treated as a -10, and a 20 is treated as a 30? That way there are tasks that are still beyond ability (or inability), regardless of luck.
Kouk 09-24-07, 10:33 AM	Isn't there also the epic variant rule where a 1 is treated as a -10, and a 20 is treated as a 30? That way there are tasks that are still beyond ability (or inability), regardless of luck. It's not an epic variant, just in the DMG.
Nephlite 09-24-07, 11:10 AM	Don't know if this will help you or not: In 3.5 the distance jumped is essentially your Jump result (check the table for the benchmarks) In 3.0 the distance jumped was basically your Jump result - 5. This is actually very close to real-world jumps on average. Don't know how to change the high variability of the checks. It's just a part of the system. In 3.0 DC =jump when making standing jump. Also hieght limit. Only monks could bypass. 3.5: 2 x DC = Jump when standing jump. No height limit.
StruckingFuggle 09-24-07, 01:57 PM	If you are going for the realistic approach you might as well just eliminate magic I'd like to introduce you to the 'big-small problem'. For a fantasy setting, people find it easier to accept the big different strange things, so long as the small things make sense. A cat can talk, and that's just fine; but if a normal human can pull of DC 30 skill checks regularly, something's wrong.
BilopTheFleshwarper 09-24-07, 02:47 PM	hmm.... lets see, with the way the rules go most characters run the four minute mile (assuming they can make a bunch of con checks) but as far as the jump checks it's really not too unreasonable so let's break it down into dnd terms... 2 str 14 (not super strong but it's a runner so this will do) 4 max ranks 4 Run feat( with running start that you should always have) 3 skill focus 4 quick trait(not unreasonable, speed above 30 gives bonus) so a hypothetical level one character with all the right training can beat world records on a 13 and shatter them with a 15 or higher. give this hypothetical person 2 more levels and the check can go up by at least 4 (2 ranks, 2 from the 2&2 feat) and could go up another 2 if they spent the 5 points on tumble. now at third level making world record jumps on a roll of 7 and otherwise shattering the record. and all of that is off the top of my head without the use of barbarian speed increase for another +4, magic items(min +5), other feats and class abilities. the idea that someone can only jump 1 foot 5% of the time is a low assummption that means the person is weak, with no training or other enhancements to alter it, and usually people like that would circumvent the need to jump with the use of magics.
war_thog 09-25-07, 12:23 AM	Youre idea is a reasonably good one. I agree that the variability in dice rolls doesnt fit with jumping. If I standing jump 20 times im not going to have a 19ft difference in my jump distances. However I think that there should be a DC realm for jumping > speed if you use your variant. So take a - lots and do well :) Or soemthing like that. Alternatively use the jump rules as - DC = jump. Failure = you miss. Rather than you go 1ft/1 check. Works similarly, but saywe try to jump a 4ft hole we just fail, rather than going 1 ft, and if we roll a 20 we pass, rather than going 20 ft.
AAB 09-25-07, 01:37 AM	If I standing jump 20 times im not going to have a 19ft difference in my jump distances. Just a nitpick, but if you did a standing long jump many times (enough to get a 1-20 on your roll) the difference between would be 10 feet. Standing jump DCs are doubled. So on a roll of 1 you would actually, if you had no strength bonus, not jump at all.
Someone 09-25-07, 01:59 PM	Alternatively use the jump rules as - DC = jump. Failure = you miss.Those are the normal Jump rules, there's nothing alternative about them.
BW0222 09-25-07, 02:56 PM	Xeviat-DM, >FoulQ >If you are going for the realistic approach you might as well just eliminate >magic Thanks for not helping. Honestly, what is the issue with trying to make the realistic mechanics of the game more realistic? His point is obvious. If you want to add realism into the game, you've got some major problems. First, how to you apply D&D mechanics to reality. What class and level is an Olympic long-jumper? 5th, 10th, 15th? What is their strength, ranks, and skills? How do they gain experience? If they are such levels... why can't they get hit by six arrows and stay standing and why aren't they better hitting things (i.e. BAB)? And are you honestly suggesting that women get a -4 to jump checks? Second, even if you could make the first work (good luck), how can you have any real world rational for extending them to a fantasy setting. Ok, so you figure out a jump system for a normal human (horses, cats, dogs, leopards, etc.) how does that help figure out what a monk jumps at, or a hasted troll, or a monk-druid in leopard form with longstider going? Is a monk 10%, 20%, or 50% better than a normal person. Well, since monks, trolls, and monk-druids don't exist in the real world, any number is just as good. Third, you open the game to realism arguements. How about we figure out the physics of an arrow in D&D? Humm... an elven ranger with rapid shot and far shot can fire 5 arrows, 2200 feet, in six seconds. The final arrow travels 2200 feet in 6/5 of a second (1.2 seconds). That is 2200 ft / 1.2 s. = 1833 ft/s. = 1250 miles/hour. That is about the velocity of a 0.5 calibre round at 500m and both are about 500 grain. Now... we all know that a 0.5 calibre round will happy go through a few feet of wood (and with wood has a hardness of 5 and 10hp/inch), an arrows should average 250 or so points of damage. Of course folks will say that is silly, but then again so it that fact an arrow can travel 2200 ft. in six seconds.
war_thog 09-26-07, 09:20 PM	Just a nitpick, but if you did a standing long jump many times (enough to get a 1-20 on your roll) the difference between would be 10 feet. Standing jump DCs are doubled. So on a roll of 1 you would actually, if you had no strength bonus, not jump at all. Whatever, the point remains the same. Even a 10ft variance wont happen.
war_thog 09-26-07, 09:21 PM	Those are the normal Jump rules, there's nothing alternative about them. Youre right. I always thought it was you just go what you score. So if you roll to high you overshoot and so on. Well ive been doing that wrong! :P
Tyler Do'Urden 09-27-07, 12:17 PM	Isn't there also the epic variant rule where a 1 is treated as a -10, and a 20 is treated as a 30? Actually, the epic version of that is open-ended rolling. When you roll a 1, roll again and subtract 20. Continue doing this as long ask you keep rolling 1s. Similarly, when you roll a 20, roll again and add 20, and continue as long as you keep rolling 20s. With this rule in place, a 1st-level commoner with a +0 to Escape Artist has a 1 in 64,000,000 chance of slipping through a wall of force.
Xeviat-DM 09-29-07, 10:25 PM	BW0222, so it's more realistic for an average, untrained person to be able to, 5% of the time, successfully jump 20 feet? I haven't tried myself, but I'm pretty sure I can't jump 20 feet, and I used to do hurdles. How is my desire to remove this inconsistency from the game going to destroy it? I recognize that it's a game, and 100% realism can't be made. That's not what I'm seeking. I'm seeking to change one skill to make it a little more reasonable, and perhaps a little more consistent within the rules.
BW0222 09-30-07, 01:44 PM	Xeviat-DM, BW0222, so it's more realistic for an average, untrained person to be able to, 5% of the time, successfully jump 20 feet? Yes. It is more realistic than arrows flying 2200' in 6/5ths of a second. It is more realistic than the physics of a 20 ton dragon flying using natural flight. It is more realistic than magic missiles coming out of someone's hands. IMO, it is more realistic than 99% of the mechanics, spells, skills, and abilities in the game. I haven't tried myself, but I'm pretty sure I can't jump 20 feet, and I used to do hurdles. I'm pretty sure no one in the world can shoot a supersonic arrow either? How is my desire to remove this inconsistency from the game going to destroy it? Inconsistent with what? Reality or a fanasty game. First, it sets up a bad precident. You are applying reality at the sole factor in whether a fanasty roleplaying game needs to be altered. At which point, someone can bring their physics book to the game and prove half the things in the game impossible. What is your response that you can't fire arrows in D&D because they end up travelling at supersonic speeds? What is your response that natural flight does not allow 20 ton dragons to fly? Second, you won't get it right. Honestly, you'll do all these "fixes" and I'll start applying your system to house cats, mountain lions, horses, and mules and get equally unrealistic numbers. Third, anything you can come up with using "reality" as a guide obviously won't work for fantastic creatures. How about a monk troll, how far should on of them be able to jump? Where is your real world argument to support that? Forth, it is a huge waste of time. It doesn't make the game any more believable, unless we are role-playing rabbits in the zoo, rather than fantasy heros tossing spells, fighting demons, and slaying orcs in the flying citadel. I recognize that it's a game, and 100% realism can't be made. That's not what I'm seeking. I'm seeking to change one skill to make it a little more reasonable, and perhaps a little more consistent within the rules. Reasonable? * Is it breaking your game? Are folks jumping around like kangaroos? Is it so broken than they can jump a 10' pit? * Are folks unhappy with the game? Do they hate the fact that they need to roll a jump check (and didn't forget they can often take 10) any more than needing to make spot checks to see a troll behind a tree? * Are your players so interested in comparing a fanstasy game to reality and yet jump is their biggest issue? Do they bring out the Olympic record books or run physics calculations on jump yet hide the books on everytime they deal with hit points, movement, magic, etc., etc. The points against "reality" arguements are obvious. They entire game is anti-reality. You either need to all of it, or you are going to have to accept that your players are going to let their imagination rule and ignore the other twenty thousand unreal things which the game is based on.
RobbyPants 10-01-07, 01:16 PM	Honestly, what is the issue with trying to make the realistic mechanics of the game more realistic? The problem is that often (not always) it results in a drastic increase in complexity with little return in the form of realism. Also, some "realistic" fixes end up being absurdly broken in some way or another (high ability scores, spells like True Strike, and general interactions with magic). I'm not saying what you want to do is a bad idea, but rather that a lot of posters will generally assume it's a bad idea to modify things like this for realism. I agree that the Jump skill isn't very realistic, but most things in the game aren't. It's designed for fantasy characters who can do great and wonderful things. One easy "fix" is to reinstate the 3.0 limiation on jumps based on your height, and give monks back Leap of the Clouds. It isn't a perfect fix, but it's simple, and it prevents a normal character from making huge jumps. Another thing to remember is the taking 10 rules. If the PCs aren't distracted, they can take 10 on a jump (which helps with the range of numbers complaint you had about the d20). If they are distracted, then they have to roll as normal, and good or bad d20 rolls can be explained by adreniline rushes or bad footing respectively.
StruckingFuggle 10-01-07, 06:53 PM	Isn't the problem with Jump's non-realism more in with the fact that it's rolled on a d20 curve with it's 1-20 variance, rather than the modifiers or DCs?
Tyler Do'Urden 10-02-07, 04:43 PM	Isn't the problem with Jump's non-realism more in with the fact that it's rolled on a d20 curve with it's 1-20 variance, rather than the modifiers or DCs? Agreed. Using 3d6 instead of 1d20 for jump checks normalizes it quite a bit. Hmm...
RobbyPants 10-02-07, 04:46 PM	Isn't the problem with Jump's non-realism more in with the fact that it's rolled on a d20 curve with it's 1-20 variance, rather than the modifiers or DCs? Which is why I brought up the issue of taking 10. If you're "ready" to make a jump, it seems to make sense that your distance will be based on skill and natural talent (read: ranks + Str mod). If you're somehow distracted (i.e. cannot take 10), then other random factors are more likely to come into play. Granted, the roll of a d20 compared to your total modifiers may still be more variance than what is "realistic", but this at least comes closer to fixing that problem. Another issue I would think would involve the insanely high modifiers you can get from level + (superhuman high) Str mod, not counting magical Skill boosters. Or even if you just keep the Str mod within the realm of human feasibility, picture the jumps a 20th level character with Jump as a class skill can make (assuming maxed ranks). A +23 Jump check (skill points alone) can acomplish some insane jumps.