Shadow blade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadow blade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
taragol
03-11-08, 11:47 PM Hi! The shadow blade feat text says that you add your dex mod as a bonus on melee damage rolls. The table says that you use your dex mod INSTEAD OF your str mod for damage rolls. I know that the text takes precedence over the table, but it seems too overpowered to simply add dex to damage in addition to str.

¿What do you think?

Thanks!
dman11235
03-11-08, 11:48 PM It's fine. You have to be using a shadow hand weapon in a shadow hand stance.
Suspect_Unusual
03-12-08, 12:12 AM Is there actually a direct contradiction between table and text? Shadow Blade's never explicitly states you gain the Dexterity modifier AS WELL AS the Strength modifier, it simply states you gain your Dexterity damage as a bonus to damage. If there is no contradiction, then the table can still be correct.
runestar
03-12-08, 07:13 AM I know that the text takes precedence over the table, but it seems too overpowered to simply add dex to damage in addition to str.

It depends actually. If my str was negative (as might be the case for a halfling with 6 str), I would prefer for shadow blade to use dex instead of str, instead of just adding dex.:P
Mad_Jack
03-12-08, 11:29 AM It's not really overpowered. It really only gives a secondary combatant a better chance of keeping up with the front-line melee guys. It'd be different if you could use it without restrictions, but it has very strict requirements.
It requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance, and using one of the half-dozen or so Shadow Hand weapons, only one of which does more than 1d6 for damage. Few characters have high strength *and* high dexterity - with a 14 Str and a 14 Dex that's only +4 total, which means damage for a shortsword is only 5-10 points, which is comparable to the damage of a longsword. Your average character is going to have a score of 10 or 12 in one ability and 14 or 16 in the other - which is essentially equal to the damage you'd get just from a high strength score.

The absolute best case scenario... If you use a spiked chain and had 18 in both Str and Dex, that's 2d4 +10 (6 for str x 1.5 and 4 for dex) which is 12-18 points... Good minimum damage, but still only about the same maximum damage as swinging a greatsword.
taragol
03-12-08, 11:36 AM Well, I was thinking more of a two short swords wielder, but twf stinks so much that now I think it's ok with shadow blade.

Thanks!
luedre
03-12-08, 03:49 PM Actually, I was thinking Unarmed would be the way to go with this. I was actually going to build an Exalted Monk 2, Warblade 12, Shadow Sun Ninja 1, and Master of nine 5. Of course, two levels of Master of nine would come before the Shadow Sun Ninja to qualify, but with this build, you could use wisdom instead of str for both attack and damage. Meaning you could easilly pump up your wisdom to 28 by level 20, and not only does it do your damage, attack, but it's also giving you AC bonus along with an awsome DC for stunning fist. Also, with superior unarmed strike, your doing damage based on your character level, which is very decent. It is a very feat intensive build, but it's one that has good damage at high levels, though medium to low levels are rather poor. The build would give you 3 9th level manuevers along with 3 or so 8ths. Well, just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
dman11235
03-12-08, 10:40 PM Problem: SUS adds 4 to your effective monk level. However, add in a Monk's Belt and a Monk's Tattoo, and you're doing monk 16 damage (assuming SSN adds to monk level, if not monk 15 damage).
luedre
03-13-08, 02:09 AM Not a problem actually, you do 2d6 at level 16 regardless of your monk level thanks to Superior unarmed strike, and you missed the exalted part, IE no monk belt, but it's not your fist damage that will be doing the damage, it'll be your wisdom/manuevers.
dman11235
03-13-08, 10:38 AM You said exalted, not VoP. Exalted doesn't mean not getting rid of items, taking VoPov does. And the only exalted feat you need to add wis to attack is Intuitive Attack, which does not require VoPov.

And re-read SUS. If you have monk levels, it only adds +4 to your effective level. And monk 6 or 7 is not 2d6. If you don't have monk levels, then SUS gives you the alternate progression.

Now, I'm going to expand on your build a little bit, because it lacks in some areas. Namely defense. Take at least one level of Fist of the Forest to get con to AC. Now you have a high AC (if focusing on wis>con>dex>everything else). Also, take one level of Shiba Protector (or more if your saves are lacking). This adds wis to attack and damage again, meaning you now get wisx2 to attack and wisx2 to damage. And yes, it does stack. Start with the unarmed swordsage instead of monk and take Shadow Blade. Hmm, this build might make me break my ToB not playing policy...
luedre
03-13-08, 04:37 PM You said exalted, not VoP. Exalted doesn't mean not getting rid of items, taking VoPov does. And the only exalted feat you need to add wis to attack is Intuitive Attack, which does not require VoPov.

And re-read SUS. If you have monk levels, it only adds +4 to your effective level. And monk 6 or 7 is not 2d6. If you don't have monk levels, then SUS gives you the alternate progression.

Now, I'm going to expand on your build a little bit, because it lacks in some areas. Namely defense. Take at least one level of Fist of the Forest to get con to AC. Now you have a high AC (if focusing on wis>con>dex>everything else). Also, take one level of Shiba Protector (or more if your saves are lacking). This adds wis to attack and damage again, meaning you now get wisx2 to attack and wisx2 to damage. And yes, it does stack. Start with the unarmed swordsage instead of monk and take Shadow Blade. Hmm, this build might make me break my ToB not playing policy...

My appologies on the bad wording, but VOP monk is what I was refering to. The SUS has two options, one is for a monk to have damage four over itself, the other is that the damage is based on character level. This is argueable, but considering the basis of the feat, you should be able to choose the character level as your weapon advancement(Boy does ToB in need of Errata), since that is benefit of it. It later says that if a monk takes the feat, they can consider their damage four levels higher then their progression, but if you have all of two levels in monk, the character level out strips the 'benefit'. So honestly, it's DMs call at this point. With the VoP, you don't need any other classes for AC, unless you just really wish to beef it up, ie your AC could easilly reach 40 ac. If you take other classes to supliment this, you lose manuevers and your 9th level manuevers, of which you get five from the master of nine. I was hestitant to even say monk, though I suppose you could just take two levels of sword sage instead, using the variant to get unarmed strike, along with using your manuevers to qualify for entry into mastery of nine, the main difference is that you would lose evasion.
dman11235
03-13-08, 05:36 PM Dude, I'm all for making it be a choice, but RAW monks who multi-class out ASAP get shafted. It does not say can, it say they do.

40 AC is strong? Boy, what game have you been playing in? AC 70 is strong. AC 40 is low. VoP gives you a lower AC than with wealth as well (unless you add a third stat to AC and have VoPea). AC 40 is what my high AC characters have at level 10. My normal AC characters (which are a rareity, I tend to go high on the defensive end over offense) have AC 50 at 20. Even core only: +5 full plate, +5 heavy shield, +5 deflection and natural armor is already AC 38. Now +3 dex (your full plate is mithral), +1 luck (luck stone), +1 insight (ioun stone), +1 something (something, I can't remember) gives you 44. Add in spells from non-core and that goes up easy.
runestar
03-13-08, 07:46 PM Too high an AC is problematic. If the enemy cannot hit you save on a natural 20, what is to stop him from just channeling all his bab to power attack while waiting for those natural 20s to come up?
Jay_Ibero_911
03-13-08, 08:36 PM Too high an AC is problematic. If the enemy cannot hit you save on a natural 20, what is to stop him from just channeling all his bab to power attack while waiting for those natural 20s to come up?

Elusive Target FTW
dman11235
03-13-08, 08:59 PM Exactly. Also, reasonable AC is 45+ at 20. Most guys are nearly auto-hitting that at 20 (hit on a 5-7), but their lower iteratives suffer. High AC would be 55+, where they need to roll well to hit (15-17). However, some monsters have +ridiculous attack bonus, and they just win. Really high AC is 65+, where those monsters that are nothing but to-hit gods have a good amount of trouble hitting you (15-17).

But if you're AC is struggling to get to 35, what's to stop them from PAing for +20-+30 damage , when they can still hit you with their primary on a 6 or 7? And again: Elusive Target FTW. I do keep forgetting to put that in my high AC build just for that reason. The problem with one of them (my monk/barbarian monstrosity) is that he has int 8, and therefore can't qualify. I do love that (nigh un-killable) build though.
runestar
03-13-08, 09:25 PM Where is this elusive target?

My PC can easily get AC44 at lv20 with no problem. Or 54 with expertise and defending weapon (but it severely degrades his attack roll, so I really only use it as a last resort), and is not an option for casters, since it robs them of their standard action for casting spells.

How else do you go about boosting your AC (besides the standard ring of prot/amulet of NA/animated shield/armour+5?
dman11235
03-13-08, 09:46 PM Spells if not core only. If core only, you're stuck with a slightly lower AC, or being a psion or psywar (if you count the XPH as core) and semi nova-ing on AC. And monks get shafted. Outside of core, the best AC builds typically are lower armor to know armor. I know the best ACs I've gotten (120+ theoretical, 70 on a nova AC practical with my monk/barbarian) have been no armor. That 44 was what I got with my standard core high AC. Recitation adds 2 to it if you worship the same deity as the cleric, if you are a sorc/wiz/druid or have access to their spells the higher Bite of the Wear XXX have higher NA enhancement bonuses, PrCs can add stats to AC, stuff like that.
Neutronium_Dragon
03-13-08, 10:37 PM To go back to the original post: The table is wrong, the text is right. (The rule is that text trumps tables when there's a conflict between the two.) It is not overpowered; it essentially allows those otherwise-weak weapons which you can use with the feat to be competitive with a Strength/two-hander approach.
kalstrand
03-15-08, 12:49 PM Where is this elusive target?

My PC can easily get AC44 at lv20 with no problem. Or 54 with expertise and defending weapon (but it severely degrades his attack roll, so I really only use it as a last resort), and is not an option for casters, since it robs them of their standard action for casting spells.

How else do you go about boosting your AC (besides the standard ring of prot/amulet of NA/animated shield/armour+5?

Elusive Target is a tactical feat in Complete Warrior.
Baninor
03-16-08, 07:32 AM Alright lets break this down into 2 groups. 1 is balance, 2 is the rules

1: Balance. So lets ignore all the crazy damage you do with burning blade with 2 weapons or other such feats and just focus on the feat. Lets assume Point Buy System, for a Wood Elf its -easy- to get 18 str and 18dex. That means with your fancy shortswords your doing 1d6 + 8, and 1d6 + 6. Mean while similar Woodelf with his now seemingly less fancy greatsword is stuck doing 2d6 + 6.
I mean this is first level we're talking about here, lets not get into what happens at 20th level when both str and dex are 30ish, or the magical bonuses on each sword will give for damage.

Now that the balance factor is out of the way, rules. Suspect_Unusual is very correct the long description says -nothing- about getting both strength and dexterity, so assume both is correct since they don't cause any direct contradictions and dex replaces strength as your + to damage.

Maybe well get lucky and they'll put out an errata for it (not that it always fixes everything) before 4th ed hits.

EDIT: Uck It appears according to the current Q&A Shadow Blade gives both Str and Dex, so unless an errata comes out to balance some things in this book... Thats how it is.
dman11235
03-16-08, 10:03 AM Conversely, how are you getting that high a strength and dex? At the expense of your other stats. And how are your getting that high a strength at 20 (not to mention that you are still doing melee damage, which isn't all that great at the high levels compared to some stuff: you need high power shenanigans to stay viable)? 18+2+4+6=30, and so does 18+3+5+6, but that same character focusing on just one could have as high as a 36 in one, meaning a +3 attack bonus over the other guy, which is more important than damage (can't deal that awesome damage if you can't hit). And what if you aren't wood elf and aren't playing with a high point buy? Using standard PB and a human, you can have a 15 and a 14 in them. Maybe a 16 and a 14 (if you have two 8s). Suddenly it's not anywhere near as awesome, when you use the standard PB instead of a high power one. And sure, that wood elf can get two 18s with standard, but you are suffering with your other stats having 13/8/8/8. And at least one of those will be a 6, and the 13 might be an 11 (con and int are penalized), if not that's two 6s. That's not a very good character. And to top it all off you are restricted to using a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon, the best of which is 2d4, the second is 1d6 (as opposed to 2d6 for the greatsword or Goliath Warhammer).

As for rules wise: it would say if it replaced strength. It has the option of not saying if it just provides a bonus. It says "you add your dexterity to damage". The "in place of strength" is conspicuously absent.
Baninor
03-16-08, 10:26 AM each 18 only cost the woodelf 10 points.
Standard still leaves 8 points left. Which can give you 2 12s.
Probably left with
18 18 10 10 8 8. Bit of a glass cannon I know but I'm just showing an extreme. (I'd drop the str down to 14 or 16 and redistribute the points around)

So whats wrong with being forced to stay in Shadow hand stance and using Shadow Hand Weapons. Last time I checked shortswords are really good weapons. As is Island of Blades or Assassins Stance.

So lets assume we have a regular elf. 12 18 12 12 12 8. Your doing 1d6 + 5, and 1d6 +4. Still better than the 2d6 + 6 than a greatsword can do.

Say you have 14 str and 16 dex (easy to get even for a human). If we compare this feat to any other feat in the game it flat out trumps every single one of them in terms of + damage.
dman11235
03-16-08, 04:42 PM Standard is 25 points. That's the elite array. And like I showed: in order for your wood elf to get two 18s he needs a 13/8/8/8 in the others, probably 13 in con, so that leaves in order 11/6/8/8. For a melee guy. A skill focused melee guy. And the point of restricting you to shadow hand weapon/stance is that it limits you. A lot. Wouldn't you rather be using a greatsword? Or maybe you wanted to use a different weapon still? And one of those awesome other stances? Sure SH has some good ones, but so do others. And if you can only use shadow hand, it really limits you. It's sort of the same reason the sorcerer isn't as powerful as a wizard: limits.

And your regular elf can do a respectable amount of damage. Yipee. He also suffers HP wise, skill check wise (other than dex based), and doesn't do as much damage as that raging barbarian. Who does 2d6+7 (that's without stretching your stats and using the elite array (three points less than yours) with a +2 racial) with his greatsword. And that damage will grow much faster than yours, due to the 1.5xstr rule. And I'm wondering how 1d6+5 is better than 2d6+6.

Power. Attack. Which is better now, +12 damage at 20 or +30? Leap Attack. Same issue. Then the abstracts like Shock Trooper which hightens your attack bonus. There are a lot that give better return. This feat is really good for finesse based builds. Heck, it makes non-rogue finesse builds viable damage wise.
Baninor
03-16-08, 10:28 PM Power Attack is not a direct comparison because you take a large penalty to your attack, while Shadow Blade has no penalty.

And remember Shadow Blade keeps scaling.
rjsilverthorn
03-16-08, 10:40 PM Power Attack is not a direct comparison because you take a large penalty to your attack, while Shadow Blade has no penalty.

And remember Shadow Blade keeps scaling.

There is no penalty for Shadow Blade, but there are far more limitations in its use than there is for PA.

Power Attack's only prereq is Str 13, and its usable with any weapon.

Shadow Blade has a prereq of a Shadow Hand maneuver and requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance to gain the benefits. Its also limited to only five weapons (three of which are exotic) and unarmed strike.
dman11235
03-16-08, 11:04 PM And how does shadow blade scale? By increasing dex. PA scales by increasing BAB. And Shock Trooper: have PA take away from your AC instead of attack. Leap Attack: increase the amount of damage PA does.
Wih
03-17-08, 01:08 AM What people need to remember is that Shadow Blade adds DEX to damage. People get STR*1.5 to damage by weilding a weapon in 2 hands. Most of the Shadow Blade wepaons are light weapons, meaning you can't do this.
Secondly, Shadow Blade doesn't let you use DEX to hit - that's a seperate feat. You're spending either a feat in order to use a second stat that isn't as efficient as the origonal and STILL be MAD, or two feats in order to be SAD but still not as effective as a straight STR based fighter.
The example with a Wood Elf use 10 points in each. Let's use an example of a Orc Barbarian putting 10 points into STR. They end up with 20 STR, 24 when in a rage, which equates to 2d6+10. The Elf is spending an extra feat on TWF, which the Orc can buy Power Attack with, dropping 2 points of BAB in for 2d6+14 - equalling the Elf's output with a net investment of 1 less feat and not having to put 10 points into DEX either.
Shadow Blade is merely a way of making TWF slightly more viable. THF has far more damage output. And this isn't even taking into account the small amount of weapons you can use it with, or that you always have to be in a Shadow Hand stance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
taragol 03-11-08, 11:47 PM	Hi! The shadow blade feat text says that you add your dex mod as a bonus on melee damage rolls. The table says that you use your dex mod INSTEAD OF your str mod for damage rolls. I know that the text takes precedence over the table, but it seems too overpowered to simply add dex to damage in addition to str. ¿What do you think? Thanks!
dman11235 03-11-08, 11:48 PM	It's fine. You have to be using a shadow hand weapon in a shadow hand stance.
Suspect_Unusual 03-12-08, 12:12 AM	Is there actually a direct contradiction between table and text? Shadow Blade's never explicitly states you gain the Dexterity modifier AS WELL AS the Strength modifier, it simply states you gain your Dexterity damage as a bonus to damage. If there is no contradiction, then the table can still be correct.
runestar 03-12-08, 07:13 AM	I know that the text takes precedence over the table, but it seems too overpowered to simply add dex to damage in addition to str. It depends actually. If my str was negative (as might be the case for a halfling with 6 str), I would prefer for shadow blade to use dex instead of str, instead of just adding dex.:P
Mad_Jack 03-12-08, 11:29 AM	It's not really overpowered. It really only gives a secondary combatant a better chance of keeping up with the front-line melee guys. It'd be different if you could use it without restrictions, but it has very strict requirements. It requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance, and using one of the half-dozen or so Shadow Hand weapons, only one of which does more than 1d6 for damage. Few characters have high strength and high dexterity - with a 14 Str and a 14 Dex that's only +4 total, which means damage for a shortsword is only 5-10 points, which is comparable to the damage of a longsword. Your average character is going to have a score of 10 or 12 in one ability and 14 or 16 in the other - which is essentially equal to the damage you'd get just from a high strength score. The absolute best case scenario... If you use a spiked chain and had 18 in both Str and Dex, that's 2d4 +10 (6 for str x 1.5 and 4 for dex) which is 12-18 points... Good minimum damage, but still only about the same maximum damage as swinging a greatsword.
taragol 03-12-08, 11:36 AM	Well, I was thinking more of a two short swords wielder, but twf stinks so much that now I think it's ok with shadow blade. Thanks!
luedre 03-12-08, 03:49 PM	Actually, I was thinking Unarmed would be the way to go with this. I was actually going to build an Exalted Monk 2, Warblade 12, Shadow Sun Ninja 1, and Master of nine 5. Of course, two levels of Master of nine would come before the Shadow Sun Ninja to qualify, but with this build, you could use wisdom instead of str for both attack and damage. Meaning you could easilly pump up your wisdom to 28 by level 20, and not only does it do your damage, attack, but it's also giving you AC bonus along with an awsome DC for stunning fist. Also, with superior unarmed strike, your doing damage based on your character level, which is very decent. It is a very feat intensive build, but it's one that has good damage at high levels, though medium to low levels are rather poor. The build would give you 3 9th level manuevers along with 3 or so 8ths. Well, just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
dman11235 03-12-08, 10:40 PM	Problem: SUS adds 4 to your effective monk level. However, add in a Monk's Belt and a Monk's Tattoo, and you're doing monk 16 damage (assuming SSN adds to monk level, if not monk 15 damage).
luedre 03-13-08, 02:09 AM	Not a problem actually, you do 2d6 at level 16 regardless of your monk level thanks to Superior unarmed strike, and you missed the exalted part, IE no monk belt, but it's not your fist damage that will be doing the damage, it'll be your wisdom/manuevers.
dman11235 03-13-08, 10:38 AM	You said exalted, not VoP. Exalted doesn't mean not getting rid of items, taking VoPov does. And the only exalted feat you need to add wis to attack is Intuitive Attack, which does not require VoPov. And re-read SUS. If you have monk levels, it only adds +4 to your effective level. And monk 6 or 7 is not 2d6. If you don't have monk levels, then SUS gives you the alternate progression. Now, I'm going to expand on your build a little bit, because it lacks in some areas. Namely defense. Take at least one level of Fist of the Forest to get con to AC. Now you have a high AC (if focusing on wis>con>dex>everything else). Also, take one level of Shiba Protector (or more if your saves are lacking). This adds wis to attack and damage again, meaning you now get wisx2 to attack and wisx2 to damage. And yes, it does stack. Start with the unarmed swordsage instead of monk and take Shadow Blade. Hmm, this build might make me break my ToB not playing policy...
luedre 03-13-08, 04:37 PM	You said exalted, not VoP. Exalted doesn't mean not getting rid of items, taking VoPov does. And the only exalted feat you need to add wis to attack is Intuitive Attack, which does not require VoPov. And re-read SUS. If you have monk levels, it only adds +4 to your effective level. And monk 6 or 7 is not 2d6. If you don't have monk levels, then SUS gives you the alternate progression. Now, I'm going to expand on your build a little bit, because it lacks in some areas. Namely defense. Take at least one level of Fist of the Forest to get con to AC. Now you have a high AC (if focusing on wis>con>dex>everything else). Also, take one level of Shiba Protector (or more if your saves are lacking). This adds wis to attack and damage again, meaning you now get wisx2 to attack and wisx2 to damage. And yes, it does stack. Start with the unarmed swordsage instead of monk and take Shadow Blade. Hmm, this build might make me break my ToB not playing policy... My appologies on the bad wording, but VOP monk is what I was refering to. The SUS has two options, one is for a monk to have damage four over itself, the other is that the damage is based on character level. This is argueable, but considering the basis of the feat, you should be able to choose the character level as your weapon advancement(Boy does ToB in need of Errata), since that is benefit of it. It later says that if a monk takes the feat, they can consider their damage four levels higher then their progression, but if you have all of two levels in monk, the character level out strips the 'benefit'. So honestly, it's DMs call at this point. With the VoP, you don't need any other classes for AC, unless you just really wish to beef it up, ie your AC could easilly reach 40 ac. If you take other classes to supliment this, you lose manuevers and your 9th level manuevers, of which you get five from the master of nine. I was hestitant to even say monk, though I suppose you could just take two levels of sword sage instead, using the variant to get unarmed strike, along with using your manuevers to qualify for entry into mastery of nine, the main difference is that you would lose evasion.
dman11235 03-13-08, 05:36 PM	Dude, I'm all for making it be a choice, but RAW monks who multi-class out ASAP get shafted. It does not say can, it say they do. 40 AC is strong? Boy, what game have you been playing in? AC 70 is strong. AC 40 is low. VoP gives you a lower AC than with wealth as well (unless you add a third stat to AC and have VoPea). AC 40 is what my high AC characters have at level 10. My normal AC characters (which are a rareity, I tend to go high on the defensive end over offense) have AC 50 at 20. Even core only: +5 full plate, +5 heavy shield, +5 deflection and natural armor is already AC 38. Now +3 dex (your full plate is mithral), +1 luck (luck stone), +1 insight (ioun stone), +1 something (something, I can't remember) gives you 44. Add in spells from non-core and that goes up easy.
runestar 03-13-08, 07:46 PM	Too high an AC is problematic. If the enemy cannot hit you save on a natural 20, what is to stop him from just channeling all his bab to power attack while waiting for those natural 20s to come up?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-08, 08:36 PM	Too high an AC is problematic. If the enemy cannot hit you save on a natural 20, what is to stop him from just channeling all his bab to power attack while waiting for those natural 20s to come up? Elusive Target FTW
dman11235 03-13-08, 08:59 PM	Exactly. Also, reasonable AC is 45+ at 20. Most guys are nearly auto-hitting that at 20 (hit on a 5-7), but their lower iteratives suffer. High AC would be 55+, where they need to roll well to hit (15-17). However, some monsters have +ridiculous attack bonus, and they just win. Really high AC is 65+, where those monsters that are nothing but to-hit gods have a good amount of trouble hitting you (15-17). But if you're AC is struggling to get to 35, what's to stop them from PAing for +20-+30 damage , when they can still hit you with their primary on a 6 or 7? And again: Elusive Target FTW. I do keep forgetting to put that in my high AC build just for that reason. The problem with one of them (my monk/barbarian monstrosity) is that he has int 8, and therefore can't qualify. I do love that (nigh un-killable) build though.
runestar 03-13-08, 09:25 PM	Where is this elusive target? My PC can easily get AC44 at lv20 with no problem. Or 54 with expertise and defending weapon (but it severely degrades his attack roll, so I really only use it as a last resort), and is not an option for casters, since it robs them of their standard action for casting spells. How else do you go about boosting your AC (besides the standard ring of prot/amulet of NA/animated shield/armour+5?
dman11235 03-13-08, 09:46 PM	Spells if not core only. If core only, you're stuck with a slightly lower AC, or being a psion or psywar (if you count the XPH as core) and semi nova-ing on AC. And monks get shafted. Outside of core, the best AC builds typically are lower armor to know armor. I know the best ACs I've gotten (120+ theoretical, 70 on a nova AC practical with my monk/barbarian) have been no armor. That 44 was what I got with my standard core high AC. Recitation adds 2 to it if you worship the same deity as the cleric, if you are a sorc/wiz/druid or have access to their spells the higher Bite of the Wear XXX have higher NA enhancement bonuses, PrCs can add stats to AC, stuff like that.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-13-08, 10:37 PM	To go back to the original post: The table is wrong, the text is right. (The rule is that text trumps tables when there's a conflict between the two.) It is not overpowered; it essentially allows those otherwise-weak weapons which you can use with the feat to be competitive with a Strength/two-hander approach.
kalstrand 03-15-08, 12:49 PM	Where is this elusive target? My PC can easily get AC44 at lv20 with no problem. Or 54 with expertise and defending weapon (but it severely degrades his attack roll, so I really only use it as a last resort), and is not an option for casters, since it robs them of their standard action for casting spells. How else do you go about boosting your AC (besides the standard ring of prot/amulet of NA/animated shield/armour+5? Elusive Target is a tactical feat in Complete Warrior.
Baninor 03-16-08, 07:32 AM	Alright lets break this down into 2 groups. 1 is balance, 2 is the rules 1: Balance. So lets ignore all the crazy damage you do with burning blade with 2 weapons or other such feats and just focus on the feat. Lets assume Point Buy System, for a Wood Elf its -easy- to get 18 str and 18dex. That means with your fancy shortswords your doing 1d6 + 8, and 1d6 + 6. Mean while similar Woodelf with his now seemingly less fancy greatsword is stuck doing 2d6 + 6. I mean this is first level we're talking about here, lets not get into what happens at 20th level when both str and dex are 30ish, or the magical bonuses on each sword will give for damage. Now that the balance factor is out of the way, rules. Suspect_Unusual is very correct the long description says -nothing- about getting both strength and dexterity, so assume both is correct since they don't cause any direct contradictions and dex replaces strength as your + to damage. Maybe well get lucky and they'll put out an errata for it (not that it always fixes everything) before 4th ed hits. EDIT: Uck It appears according to the current Q&A Shadow Blade gives both Str and Dex, so unless an errata comes out to balance some things in this book... Thats how it is.
dman11235 03-16-08, 10:03 AM	Conversely, how are you getting that high a strength and dex? At the expense of your other stats. And how are your getting that high a strength at 20 (not to mention that you are still doing melee damage, which isn't all that great at the high levels compared to some stuff: you need high power shenanigans to stay viable)? 18+2+4+6=30, and so does 18+3+5+6, but that same character focusing on just one could have as high as a 36 in one, meaning a +3 attack bonus over the other guy, which is more important than damage (can't deal that awesome damage if you can't hit). And what if you aren't wood elf and aren't playing with a high point buy? Using standard PB and a human, you can have a 15 and a 14 in them. Maybe a 16 and a 14 (if you have two 8s). Suddenly it's not anywhere near as awesome, when you use the standard PB instead of a high power one. And sure, that wood elf can get two 18s with standard, but you are suffering with your other stats having 13/8/8/8. And at least one of those will be a 6, and the 13 might be an 11 (con and int are penalized), if not that's two 6s. That's not a very good character. And to top it all off you are restricted to using a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon, the best of which is 2d4, the second is 1d6 (as opposed to 2d6 for the greatsword or Goliath Warhammer). As for rules wise: it would say if it replaced strength. It has the option of not saying if it just provides a bonus. It says "you add your dexterity to damage". The "in place of strength" is conspicuously absent.
Baninor 03-16-08, 10:26 AM	each 18 only cost the woodelf 10 points. Standard still leaves 8 points left. Which can give you 2 12s. Probably left with 18 18 10 10 8 8. Bit of a glass cannon I know but I'm just showing an extreme. (I'd drop the str down to 14 or 16 and redistribute the points around) So whats wrong with being forced to stay in Shadow hand stance and using Shadow Hand Weapons. Last time I checked shortswords are really good weapons. As is Island of Blades or Assassins Stance. So lets assume we have a regular elf. 12 18 12 12 12 8. Your doing 1d6 + 5, and 1d6 +4. Still better than the 2d6 + 6 than a greatsword can do. Say you have 14 str and 16 dex (easy to get even for a human). If we compare this feat to any other feat in the game it flat out trumps every single one of them in terms of + damage.
dman11235 03-16-08, 04:42 PM	Standard is 25 points. That's the elite array. And like I showed: in order for your wood elf to get two 18s he needs a 13/8/8/8 in the others, probably 13 in con, so that leaves in order 11/6/8/8. For a melee guy. A skill focused melee guy. And the point of restricting you to shadow hand weapon/stance is that it limits you. A lot. Wouldn't you rather be using a greatsword? Or maybe you wanted to use a different weapon still? And one of those awesome other stances? Sure SH has some good ones, but so do others. And if you can only use shadow hand, it really limits you. It's sort of the same reason the sorcerer isn't as powerful as a wizard: limits. And your regular elf can do a respectable amount of damage. Yipee. He also suffers HP wise, skill check wise (other than dex based), and doesn't do as much damage as that raging barbarian. Who does 2d6+7 (that's without stretching your stats and using the elite array (three points less than yours) with a +2 racial) with his greatsword. And that damage will grow much faster than yours, due to the 1.5xstr rule. And I'm wondering how 1d6+5 is better than 2d6+6. Power. Attack. Which is better now, +12 damage at 20 or +30? Leap Attack. Same issue. Then the abstracts like Shock Trooper which hightens your attack bonus. There are a lot that give better return. This feat is really good for finesse based builds. Heck, it makes non-rogue finesse builds viable damage wise.
Baninor 03-16-08, 10:28 PM	Power Attack is not a direct comparison because you take a large penalty to your attack, while Shadow Blade has no penalty. And remember Shadow Blade keeps scaling.
rjsilverthorn 03-16-08, 10:40 PM	Power Attack is not a direct comparison because you take a large penalty to your attack, while Shadow Blade has no penalty. And remember Shadow Blade keeps scaling. There is no penalty for Shadow Blade, but there are far more limitations in its use than there is for PA. Power Attack's only prereq is Str 13, and its usable with any weapon. Shadow Blade has a prereq of a Shadow Hand maneuver and requires you to be in a Shadow Hand stance to gain the benefits. Its also limited to only five weapons (three of which are exotic) and unarmed strike.
dman11235 03-16-08, 11:04 PM	And how does shadow blade scale? By increasing dex. PA scales by increasing BAB. And Shock Trooper: have PA take away from your AC instead of attack. Leap Attack: increase the amount of damage PA does.
Wih 03-17-08, 01:08 AM	What people need to remember is that Shadow Blade adds DEX to damage. People get STR*1.5 to damage by weilding a weapon in 2 hands. Most of the Shadow Blade wepaons are light weapons, meaning you can't do this. Secondly, Shadow Blade doesn't let you use DEX to hit - that's a seperate feat. You're spending either a feat in order to use a second stat that isn't as efficient as the origonal and STILL be MAD, or two feats in order to be SAD but still not as effective as a straight STR based fighter. The example with a Wood Elf use 10 points in each. Let's use an example of a Orc Barbarian putting 10 points into STR. They end up with 20 STR, 24 when in a rage, which equates to 2d6+10. The Elf is spending an extra feat on TWF, which the Orc can buy Power Attack with, dropping 2 points of BAB in for 2d6+14 - equalling the Elf's output with a net investment of 1 less feat and not having to put 10 points into DEX either. Shadow Blade is merely a way of making TWF slightly more viable. THF has far more damage output. And this isn't even taking into account the small amount of weapons you can use it with, or that you always have to be in a Shadow Hand stance.