Shape soulmeld [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shape soulmeld [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Serge_P
05-25-07, 02:18 PM Lets say, Lance has shape soulmeld feat, and is a gestalt warlock/wizard, And may shape strongheart vest.

Does he need a feat/class level in something to bind that soulmeld to a chakra?

May he bind it to his heart-chakra without any special class levels or feats?
strenoth
05-25-07, 08:40 PM he needs class levels or feats. that's why the Bind [xx] chakra feats exist.
Sleepwalker13666
05-25-07, 08:45 PM Unfortunately the heart chakra is one of the hardest to bind, soulmeldering classes need to be 15+ level before they have that option, if your not meldshaper class it's an epic feat.
utilitarian
05-26-07, 04:27 PM You'll also need to get Open Least, Open Lesser, AND Open Greater Chakra, on account of prerequisites.
Tempest Stormwind
05-26-07, 05:04 PM Alternatively, Lance is a WIZARD and thus has access to the Open Chakra spells, which do it for him.

Do note that if he's doing what I think he's doing (Hellfire), it won't work with the strongheart vest since the damage needs to be done to have an effect. (You can, however, get the same general idea using Bind Vestige (Naberius) from the Tome of Magic.)
Serge_P
05-27-07, 08:01 AM It does work with hellfire, since hellfire need to cause damage, and strongheart vest auto-heal the damage, so he does only get damaged in theory, but the damage is restored so fast that it has no effect. And strong heart vest does not make him immune to con damage, which prevents hellfire, it just make him regenerate the con damage realy fast.

So, unless there's a FaQ that says otherwise, he can use hellfire with that vest, and I haven't seen any FaQ that says otherwise. And if that FaQ exists, please give me a link so I could shut up. And I hope that if that FaQ exists, it has warlock starting gold in it.
Tempest Stormwind
05-27-07, 01:37 PM It does work with hellfire, since hellfire need to cause damage, and strongheart vest auto-heal the damage, so he does only get damaged in theory, but the damage is restored so fast that it has no effect. And strong heart vest does not make him immune to con damage, which prevents hellfire, it just make him regenerate the con damage realy fast.

So, unless there's a FaQ that says otherwise, he can use hellfire with that vest, and I haven't seen any FaQ that says otherwise. And if that FaQ exists, please give me a link so I could shut up. And I hope that if that FaQ exists, it has warlock starting gold in it.

Reread Strongheart Vest, sparky. Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of zero.

...

...if you ... would take 1 point of Dexterity damage, you take no Dexterity damage instead.It doesn't auto-heal. It reduces damage. If you would take 1 point of Con damage, you instead take 0. If you had 1 Con remaining and a Strongheart Vest, if you tried to use a hellfire blast, you would survive because you didn't take the damage (and the blast wouldn't be a hellfire one). This is why the strongheart vest doesn't work for the hellfire warlock -- essentially the same reason why it doesn't work for undead warlocks (that is, you are essentially immune to the constitution damage).

If you want fast ability healing, you must use Bind Vestige (Naberius), as I mentioned above. (Either that or one level in binder, which opens your possibilities a bit more and lets Naberius provide you with some wonderful speaking powers... at the cost of fewer warlock levels.) His faster ability healing does not reduce damage, but rather alters the rate at which it restores itself. If you had 1 Con remaining and a pact with Naberius, and you used a hellfire blast, you would die, because you took the Con damage. However, if you had 15 Con, or whatever, and used the blast, you'd drop to 14, but thanks to your pact with Naberius it would return to 15 the following round (because it's ability damage, not ability drain).

Do note that I consider all of this patently silly, since Wizards actually did have a mechanic for spending your ability scores as a resource (ability burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn), used to power things like the Body Fuel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#bodyFuel) feat or Psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm)), and they forgot about it when they wrote the Hellfire Warlock.
DreamerInsane
05-27-07, 01:45 PM Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder.
Serge_P
05-27-07, 01:51 PM Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder.

He's gestalt warlock/wizard with devil bloodline.

I can sacrifice a wizard level for one binder level.
Tempest Stormwind
05-27-07, 01:51 PM Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder.(Serves me right for going from memory; I forgot which component he gained from the pact. Still, the idea holds -- Naberius will work where Strongheart Vest will not.)
Sleepwalker13666
05-27-07, 03:58 PM Tempest, I know you know the rules really well, but I'm not seeing why the Hellfire Blast and Strongheart Vest wouldn't work together.

The Hellfire blast only says if you are somehow immune to the damage can it not be done, where the Strongheart Vest prevents the damage, the character is not immune to damage, the damage is just being prevented. I know the intent of Hellfire Blast wouldn't allow this to work, but the rules as written imply (at least to me) that it could. I agree with you they should have written Hellfire Blast like the ability burn of body fuel, and I would tell my players that it's like that if they tried to do it with me
DreamerInsane
05-28-07, 11:37 AM Hey, yeah! Strongheart Vest DOES work.
"if you are somehow immune to Constitution damage"

It doesn't have the all important "THE Constitution damage" wording. You're immune to the Hellfire Blasts Con drain, you're not immune to Con damage altogether.

Brilliant. My gods, the cheese.
Fallenangel359
05-28-07, 02:23 PM a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways.

Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain.
Serge_P
05-28-07, 02:33 PM a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways.

Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain.

Makes sence to me.
Tempest Stormwind
05-28-07, 02:35 PM a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways.

Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain.

Or, using an equivalent fluff-based argument on why it doesn't work:
The strongheart vest shelters your body and soul, reducing drain from it like armor. The hell-pact tries to draw out your life-force, but the vest prevents it.

It also isn't YOUR soul, according to Magic of Incarnum; it's shaped from the soul energy of the multiverse. (Essentia is your personal soul energy, but the melds are not.)

Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work:

If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated.

...

If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated.

...Hmm. Now isn't that interesting?

Far more consistent with the rules than arguing that the absence of a definite article enables it in a fringe case, no?

DR isn't the same, mechanically, as fast healing. It reduces and in some cases negates the damage. If you need to take damage to trigger something and it's reduced to 0 by DR, you don't get the trigger. This holds true everywhere that uses damage as a trigger, including effects like Fate Link (if you are hit for 6 and DR reduces it to 4, your linked partner loses 4 HP, not 6), the crusader's Steely Resolve (if you're hit for 13 and DR reduces it to 3, your Furious Counterstrike triggers off of 3 damage, not 13), poison, and, yes, Hellfire Blast.

Either suck up the damage like a big boy (especially if the DM does the sensible thing and calls it ability burn) or take the binder level for Naberius. The strongheart vest won't work.
Serge_P
05-28-07, 03:08 PM :banghead:
Why isn't there a FaQ?!
Tempest Stormwind
05-28-07, 03:15 PM :banghead:
Why isn't there a FaQ?!

For what? Incarnum (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=533094)? Simple rules questions (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=570753)? There are.

However, for things like this (and indeed, most of the simple rules questions), there doesn't need to be an FAQ. Just read the rules and do what they say -- any interactions like this will be explained just by understanding what the rules say.

And by "rules" I mean "rules", not "description".
Serge_P
05-28-07, 03:27 PM :surrender
Cifer
05-28-07, 05:52 PM By RAW, it works.
By common sense and decency, it doesn't.

Decide for yourself which one is more important to your game.
Harliquinn
05-29-07, 09:59 AM I will respectfully disagree with Tempest Stormwind here due to the wording of the rules as written:

if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability.

Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of zero...

There are two conditions under which Hellfire Blast cannot be used:

1) The character has no Constitution score
2) The character is immune to Constitution damage

Issue 1 is easy to deal with and doesn't apply.

Issue 2 is the contention. It really comes down to whether resistance to something is the same as immunity. Based upon the rules of d20, they are not the same thing. Being resistant to something or having something reduced is not the same as being immune to it.

The Hellfire Blast is still doing 1 point of Constitution damage to you. The Strongheart Vest is reducing damage done to you by 1. Therefore you are still taking damage, it is just 0 damage. You are not immune. If something did 2 points of Constitution damage to you, you would take 1 point of Constitution damage. If you were immune, you would take nothing.

Some examples from the rules that support this:
1) Spell Immunity: This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. (analogy: Immunity to Constitution damage cannot be overcome. A reduction in Constitution damage can.)

2) Energy Resistance: A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity. (analogy: Can reduce some Constitution damage but does not have total immunity)

3) Energy Immunity (fire): A creature with fire immunity never takes fire damage. (analogy: A character with Immunity to Constitution damage would never take that damage every)

4) Certain creatures have No Constitution and are Immune to Constitution damage (constructs, undead). Other creatures have similar immunities (not just reduction or resistance) to other effects like petrification, fire, etc.

5) There are numerous cases in the rules where an effect "cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means". This effect does not state that, therefore, it does not adhere to the same restrictions. Only the two restrictions stated matter.

Personally I think it is fine to use Strongheart Vest as a means around this just as much as the Binder level. You are A) sacrificing a feat and B) it can be dispelled / surpressed so it's always on necessarily.

Harliquinn
Sleepwalker13666
05-29-07, 12:32 PM [QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind;12528038]
Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work:

If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated.

...

If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated.
[QUOTE]

Not bad, I agree with this explanation.
Harliquinn
05-29-07, 02:21 PM Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work:

If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated.

...

If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated.

Not bad, I agree with this explanation.

Except that Hellfire Blast does not say "If you negate or reduce this damage, the effect doesn't work." The Hellfire Blast states "If you are immune to Constitution damage." They are very different things.

Given that there are effects which state "this loss of <whatever> cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means," it is reasonable to assume if they meant that in the rules, they would have said it.

Harliquinn
Tempest Stormwind
05-29-07, 05:19 PM It's obvious what the intent was, although that's a very weak argument for me to be making.

What's more likely is they left off a definite article. If you add "the" (as in, "immune to the Constitution damage") it patches this particular dilemma.

That said, it's your game. My opinion on this (that it should have been ability burn) is already stated, and far be it from me to tell you how to have fun with your game.
Sleepwalker13666
05-30-07, 12:40 AM Except that Hellfire Blast does not say "If you negate or reduce this damage, the effect doesn't work." The Hellfire Blast states "If you are immune to Constitution damage." They are very different things.

Given that there are effects which state "this loss of <whatever> cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means," it is reasonable to assume if they meant that in the rules, they would have said it.

Harliquinn

I know it is written in a manner which makes it work, however the Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire blast was poorly written, it didn't attempt to cover what "somehow immune to the damage" meant, I wasn't trying to prove Tempest wrong (such and act would be difficult and probably not worth the effort even if successful).

To me the intent of the ability is more important than a rule working because it is poorly written, I figured if anybody could have it not work and make sense by the rules it would be Tempest, which is why I questioned him.

But like he said if you want to use it as written go for it. At least you have an explanation as to why it would and would not work now and can decide whats best for your game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serge_P 05-25-07, 02:18 PM	Lets say, Lance has shape soulmeld feat, and is a gestalt warlock/wizard, And may shape strongheart vest. Does he need a feat/class level in something to bind that soulmeld to a chakra? May he bind it to his heart-chakra without any special class levels or feats?
strenoth 05-25-07, 08:40 PM	he needs class levels or feats. that's why the Bind [xx] chakra feats exist.
Sleepwalker13666 05-25-07, 08:45 PM	Unfortunately the heart chakra is one of the hardest to bind, soulmeldering classes need to be 15+ level before they have that option, if your not meldshaper class it's an epic feat.
utilitarian 05-26-07, 04:27 PM	You'll also need to get Open Least, Open Lesser, AND Open Greater Chakra, on account of prerequisites.
Tempest Stormwind 05-26-07, 05:04 PM	Alternatively, Lance is a WIZARD and thus has access to the Open Chakra spells, which do it for him. Do note that if he's doing what I think he's doing (Hellfire), it won't work with the strongheart vest since the damage needs to be done to have an effect. (You can, however, get the same general idea using Bind Vestige (Naberius) from the Tome of Magic.)
Serge_P 05-27-07, 08:01 AM	It does work with hellfire, since hellfire need to cause damage, and strongheart vest auto-heal the damage, so he does only get damaged in theory, but the damage is restored so fast that it has no effect. And strong heart vest does not make him immune to con damage, which prevents hellfire, it just make him regenerate the con damage realy fast. So, unless there's a FaQ that says otherwise, he can use hellfire with that vest, and I haven't seen any FaQ that says otherwise. And if that FaQ exists, please give me a link so I could shut up. And I hope that if that FaQ exists, it has warlock starting gold in it.
Tempest Stormwind 05-27-07, 01:37 PM	It does work with hellfire, since hellfire need to cause damage, and strongheart vest auto-heal the damage, so he does only get damaged in theory, but the damage is restored so fast that it has no effect. And strong heart vest does not make him immune to con damage, which prevents hellfire, it just make him regenerate the con damage realy fast. So, unless there's a FaQ that says otherwise, he can use hellfire with that vest, and I haven't seen any FaQ that says otherwise. And if that FaQ exists, please give me a link so I could shut up. And I hope that if that FaQ exists, it has warlock starting gold in it. Reread Strongheart Vest, sparky. Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of zero. ... ...if you ... would take 1 point of Dexterity damage, you take no Dexterity damage instead.It doesn't auto-heal. It reduces damage. If you would take 1 point of Con damage, you instead take 0. If you had 1 Con remaining and a Strongheart Vest, if you tried to use a hellfire blast, you would survive because you didn't take the damage (and the blast wouldn't be a hellfire one). This is why the strongheart vest doesn't work for the hellfire warlock -- essentially the same reason why it doesn't work for undead warlocks (that is, you are essentially immune to the constitution damage). If you want fast ability healing, you must use Bind Vestige (Naberius), as I mentioned above. (Either that or one level in binder, which opens your possibilities a bit more and lets Naberius provide you with some wonderful speaking powers... at the cost of fewer warlock levels.) His faster ability healing does not reduce damage, but rather alters the rate at which it restores itself. If you had 1 Con remaining and a pact with Naberius, and you used a hellfire blast, you would die, because you took the Con damage. However, if you had 15 Con, or whatever, and used the blast, you'd drop to 14, but thanks to your pact with Naberius it would return to 15 the following round (because it's ability damage, not ability drain). Do note that I consider all of this patently silly, since Wizards actually did have a mechanic for spending your ability scores as a resource (ability burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn), used to power things like the Body Fuel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#bodyFuel) feat or Psychofeedback (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychofeedback.htm)), and they forgot about it when they wrote the Hellfire Warlock.
DreamerInsane 05-27-07, 01:45 PM	Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder.
Serge_P 05-27-07, 01:51 PM	Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder. He's gestalt warlock/wizard with devil bloodline. I can sacrifice a wizard level for one binder level.
Tempest Stormwind 05-27-07, 01:51 PM	Bind Vestige doesn't work. Using it to bind Naberius grants you Naberius' Skills, not Faster Ability Healing. You need a level in Binder.(Serves me right for going from memory; I forgot which component he gained from the pact. Still, the idea holds -- Naberius will work where Strongheart Vest will not.)
Sleepwalker13666 05-27-07, 03:58 PM	Tempest, I know you know the rules really well, but I'm not seeing why the Hellfire Blast and Strongheart Vest wouldn't work together. The Hellfire blast only says if you are somehow immune to the damage can it not be done, where the Strongheart Vest prevents the damage, the character is not immune to damage, the damage is just being prevented. I know the intent of Hellfire Blast wouldn't allow this to work, but the rules as written imply (at least to me) that it could. I agree with you they should have written Hellfire Blast like the ability burn of body fuel, and I would tell my players that it's like that if they tried to do it with me
DreamerInsane 05-28-07, 11:37 AM	Hey, yeah! Strongheart Vest DOES work. "if you are somehow immune to Constitution damage" It doesn't have the all important "THE Constitution damage" wording. You're immune to the Hellfire Blasts Con drain, you're not immune to Con damage altogether. Brilliant. My gods, the cheese.
Fallenangel359 05-28-07, 02:23 PM	a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways. Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain.
Serge_P 05-28-07, 02:33 PM	a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways. Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain. Makes sence to me.
Tempest Stormwind 05-28-07, 02:35 PM	a decent roleplaying explaination on why strongheart vest actually legitimentally allow hellfire blast is because you are giving them a tiny part of your soul, that rapidly regenerates anyways. Remember, the soulmeld is your actual soul. So instead of physical life drain, your soul which rapidly regenerates, takes drain. Or, using an equivalent fluff-based argument on why it doesn't work: The strongheart vest shelters your body and soul, reducing drain from it like armor. The hell-pact tries to draw out your life-force, but the vest prevents it. It also isn't YOUR soul, according to Magic of Incarnum; it's shaped from the soul energy of the multiverse. (Essentia is your personal soul energy, but the melds are not.) Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work: If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated. ... If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated. ...Hmm. Now isn't that interesting? Far more consistent with the rules than arguing that the absence of a definite article enables it in a fringe case, no? DR isn't the same, mechanically, as fast healing. It reduces and in some cases negates the damage. If you need to take damage to trigger something and it's reduced to 0 by DR, you don't get the trigger. This holds true everywhere that uses damage as a trigger, including effects like Fate Link (if you are hit for 6 and DR reduces it to 4, your linked partner loses 4 HP, not 6), the crusader's Steely Resolve (if you're hit for 13 and DR reduces it to 3, your Furious Counterstrike triggers off of 3 damage, not 13), poison, and, yes, Hellfire Blast. Either suck up the damage like a big boy (especially if the DM does the sensible thing and calls it ability burn) or take the binder level for Naberius. The strongheart vest won't work.
Serge_P 05-28-07, 03:08 PM	:banghead: Why isn't there a FaQ?!
Tempest Stormwind 05-28-07, 03:15 PM	:banghead: Why isn't there a FaQ?! For what? Incarnum (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=533094)? Simple rules questions (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=570753)? There are. However, for things like this (and indeed, most of the simple rules questions), there doesn't need to be an FAQ. Just read the rules and do what they say -- any interactions like this will be explained just by understanding what the rules say. And by "rules" I mean "rules", not "description".
Serge_P 05-28-07, 03:27 PM	:surrender
Cifer 05-28-07, 05:52 PM	By RAW, it works. By common sense and decency, it doesn't. Decide for yourself which one is more important to your game.
Harliquinn 05-29-07, 09:59 AM	I will respectfully disagree with Tempest Stormwind here due to the wording of the rules as written: if you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use this ability. Any time you would take ability damage, such as Constitution damage or Strength damage, the amount of the damage is reduced by 1 point, to a minimum of zero... There are two conditions under which Hellfire Blast cannot be used: 1) The character has no Constitution score 2) The character is immune to Constitution damage Issue 1 is easy to deal with and doesn't apply. Issue 2 is the contention. It really comes down to whether resistance to something is the same as immunity. Based upon the rules of d20, they are not the same thing. Being resistant to something or having something reduced is not the same as being immune to it. The Hellfire Blast is still doing 1 point of Constitution damage to you. The Strongheart Vest is reducing damage done to you by 1. Therefore you are still taking damage, it is just 0 damage. You are not immune. If something did 2 points of Constitution damage to you, you would take 1 point of Constitution damage. If you were immune, you would take nothing. Some examples from the rules that support this: 1) Spell Immunity: This works exactly like spell resistance, except that it cannot be overcome. (analogy: Immunity to Constitution damage cannot be overcome. A reduction in Constitution damage can.) 2) Energy Resistance: A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity. (analogy: Can reduce some Constitution damage but does not have total immunity) 3) Energy Immunity (fire): A creature with fire immunity never takes fire damage. (analogy: A character with Immunity to Constitution damage would never take that damage every) 4) Certain creatures have No Constitution and are Immune to Constitution damage (constructs, undead). Other creatures have similar immunities (not just reduction or resistance) to other effects like petrification, fire, etc. 5) There are numerous cases in the rules where an effect "cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means". This effect does not state that, therefore, it does not adhere to the same restrictions. Only the two restrictions stated matter. Personally I think it is fine to use Strongheart Vest as a means around this just as much as the Binder level. You are A) sacrificing a feat and B) it can be dispelled / surpressed so it's always on necessarily. Harliquinn
Sleepwalker13666 05-29-07, 12:32 PM	[QUOTE=Tempest Stormwind;12528038] Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work: If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated. ... If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated. [QUOTE] Not bad, I agree with this explanation.
Harliquinn 05-29-07, 02:21 PM	Now, as for a rules-based reason why it doesn't work: If you're bitten by a viper that deals 1 point of lethal damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from barbarian levels), you don't get hit by its poison. It tried to deal you lethal damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the poison) is negated. ... If you're using Hellfire Blast that deals 1 point of Constitution damage to you, and you have damage reduction (such as from the strongheart vest), you don't get the effect of Hellfire Blast. It tried to deal you Constitution damage, yes, but DR reduced the damage to 0 and thus any special effect linked to taking the damage (that is, the Hellfire Blast) is negated. Not bad, I agree with this explanation. Except that Hellfire Blast does not say "If you negate or reduce this damage, the effect doesn't work." The Hellfire Blast states "If you are immune to Constitution damage." They are very different things. Given that there are effects which state "this loss of <whatever> cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means," it is reasonable to assume if they meant that in the rules, they would have said it. Harliquinn
Tempest Stormwind 05-29-07, 05:19 PM	It's obvious what the intent was, although that's a very weak argument for me to be making. What's more likely is they left off a definite article. If you add "the" (as in, "immune to the Constitution damage") it patches this particular dilemma. That said, it's your game. My opinion on this (that it should have been ability burn) is already stated, and far be it from me to tell you how to have fun with your game.
Sleepwalker13666 05-30-07, 12:40 AM	Except that Hellfire Blast does not say "If you negate or reduce this damage, the effect doesn't work." The Hellfire Blast states "If you are immune to Constitution damage." They are very different things. Given that there are effects which state "this loss of <whatever> cannot be mitigated or reduced by any means," it is reasonable to assume if they meant that in the rules, they would have said it. Harliquinn I know it is written in a manner which makes it work, however the Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire blast was poorly written, it didn't attempt to cover what "somehow immune to the damage" meant, I wasn't trying to prove Tempest wrong (such and act would be difficult and probably not worth the effort even if successful). To me the intent of the ability is more important than a rule working because it is poorly written, I figured if anybody could have it not work and make sense by the rules it would be Tempest, which is why I questioned him. But like he said if you want to use it as written go for it. At least you have an explanation as to why it would and would not work now and can decide whats best for your game.