Shield Bashing = Dual Wielding? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shield Bashing = Dual Wielding? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
reiguarani
05-08-07, 12:15 PM I have several questions here, so please bear with me.

First of all, does the Two Weapon Fighting feat affect shield bash attacks? If not, why not? A shield is treated as a one-handed martial bludgeoning weapon and is an off-hand weapon (per shield descriptions in the PH, 125).

Secondly, does Agile Shield Fighting stack with Two Weapon Fighting?

The feat description for ASF says that the penalties on each attack are -2, and that "these penalties replace the normal ones" (PH2, 74).
The feat description for TWF, however, says that the penalties are "reduced," and that the "primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6" (PH, 102). This is a reduction in penalty, not a replacement.

So, if I take ASF and then TWF, would they stack, and what would my attack rolls be if they do?

An *official* ruling would be nice.
tarkin
05-08-07, 04:41 PM 1. Yes, TWF can use Shields as your off hand attack. Note, you want the Light one usually, to get the penalty of -2 instead of the penalty of -4 for a Heavy shield.

2. Agile shield fighter lets you use any shield at -2, it never allows anything better than -2.

Normally using TWF would give a penalty of -4 with a Heavy shield.

In effect it is an improved version of the TWF feat, as it has less prequistes.

Having the feat TWF does not make you a better shield fighter in any way shape or form if you already have Agile Shield Fighter.

But TWF is a neccessary feat to get Improved TWF and Greater TWF.

For that reason, some fighter types take both TWF and Agile Shield Fighter.
Frozen Yakman
05-08-07, 04:42 PM Deleted
reiguarani
05-08-07, 06:21 PM Having the feat TWF does not make you a better shield fighter in any way shape or form if you already have Agile Shield Fighter.

Thanks for the input.
Not to be argumentative, but where is this written, and how was it decided? I have been unable to find anything that asserts what you have asserted. Is this an example of an unwritten cultural understanding, or can you direct me to hard evidence of your assessments? Or perhaps even justify the logic behind it?
Sorry, just trying to understand the source of the information you provided.
Thanks again.
KarmaInferno
05-15-07, 11:10 AM Technically, the two feats should stack.

Agile Shield Fighter replaces your normal base -6/-10 penalties with -2/-2 if you use a shield as one of your two weapons.

Two Weapon Fighting specifies that it reduces the normal penalties by 2/6.

Net result is 0/0 in penalties, as that's the lowest a penalty can be reduced to.

Others however feel that the two should not stack, in which case TWF does absolutely nothing for you that ASF does not already do, assuming you always use a shield.

So there will be some table variation between DMs.

-karma
tarkin
05-15-07, 11:49 AM The Sage/FAQ has repeatedly stated that there is no way to eliminate the -2 penalty for TWF. Agil Shield Fighter is a valuable feat and works well as intended (not stacking with TWF). The ability to use a a Heavy shield by itself is worth a feat, combinign it with a replacement for TWF makes sense and is fair.

If you add on ANOTHER power, this becomes one feat that duplicates three other feats (a. replaces TWF, b. replaces Oversized TWF, and c. reduces twf penalties), then this feat now is clearly overpowered (three feats for the price of one? come on.)

You may choose to ignore all of this and ignore the stated facts about how Agile Shield Fighter works.

But you will be House Ruling.

One feat does the same thing as one feat, not 3 feats.
Daeva
05-15-07, 07:42 PM yes but you never get a second offhand attack with agile shield fighter, but i dont care large spiked shield of bashing is ana wesome extra attack, make it spined and its funner.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
reiguarani 05-08-07, 12:15 PM	I have several questions here, so please bear with me. First of all, does the Two Weapon Fighting feat affect shield bash attacks? If not, why not? A shield is treated as a one-handed martial bludgeoning weapon and is an off-hand weapon (per shield descriptions in the PH, 125). Secondly, does Agile Shield Fighting stack with Two Weapon Fighting? The feat description for ASF says that the penalties on each attack are -2, and that "these penalties replace the normal ones" (PH2, 74). The feat description for TWF, however, says that the penalties are "reduced," and that the "primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6" (PH, 102). This is a reduction in penalty, not a replacement. So, if I take ASF and then TWF, would they stack, and what would my attack rolls be if they do? An official ruling would be nice.
tarkin 05-08-07, 04:41 PM	1. Yes, TWF can use Shields as your off hand attack. Note, you want the Light one usually, to get the penalty of -2 instead of the penalty of -4 for a Heavy shield. 2. Agile shield fighter lets you use any shield at -2, it never allows anything better than -2. Normally using TWF would give a penalty of -4 with a Heavy shield. In effect it is an improved version of the TWF feat, as it has less prequistes. Having the feat TWF does not make you a better shield fighter in any way shape or form if you already have Agile Shield Fighter. But TWF is a neccessary feat to get Improved TWF and Greater TWF. For that reason, some fighter types take both TWF and Agile Shield Fighter.
Frozen Yakman 05-08-07, 04:42 PM	Deleted
reiguarani 05-08-07, 06:21 PM	Having the feat TWF does not make you a better shield fighter in any way shape or form if you already have Agile Shield Fighter. Thanks for the input. Not to be argumentative, but where is this written, and how was it decided? I have been unable to find anything that asserts what you have asserted. Is this an example of an unwritten cultural understanding, or can you direct me to hard evidence of your assessments? Or perhaps even justify the logic behind it? Sorry, just trying to understand the source of the information you provided. Thanks again.
KarmaInferno 05-15-07, 11:10 AM	Technically, the two feats should stack. Agile Shield Fighter replaces your normal base -6/-10 penalties with -2/-2 if you use a shield as one of your two weapons. Two Weapon Fighting specifies that it reduces the normal penalties by 2/6. Net result is 0/0 in penalties, as that's the lowest a penalty can be reduced to. Others however feel that the two should not stack, in which case TWF does absolutely nothing for you that ASF does not already do, assuming you always use a shield. So there will be some table variation between DMs. -karma
tarkin 05-15-07, 11:49 AM	The Sage/FAQ has repeatedly stated that there is no way to eliminate the -2 penalty for TWF. Agil Shield Fighter is a valuable feat and works well as intended (not stacking with TWF). The ability to use a a Heavy shield by itself is worth a feat, combinign it with a replacement for TWF makes sense and is fair. If you add on ANOTHER power, this becomes one feat that duplicates three other feats (a. replaces TWF, b. replaces Oversized TWF, and c. reduces twf penalties), then this feat now is clearly overpowered (three feats for the price of one? come on.) You may choose to ignore all of this and ignore the stated facts about how Agile Shield Fighter works. But you will be House Ruling. One feat does the same thing as one feat, not 3 feats.
Daeva 05-15-07, 07:42 PM	yes but you never get a second offhand attack with agile shield fighter, but i dont care large spiked shield of bashing is ana wesome extra attack, make it spined and its funner.