shooting related feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

shooting related feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cptevil
01-09-08, 05:17 PM i have a ranged fighter and i was wondering how using more then one of them works like many shots and double shot works

and if i use either do they work with presice shot

i have another question but i forgot it :(
Kouk
01-09-08, 07:05 PM The main point about ranged feat conflicts to remember is that Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and Shot on the Run are all not compatible with each other.

Using Manyshot requires a Standard Action. Using Rapid Shot requires a full attack action, which is a Full-round Action. Using Shot on the Run uses a normal attack action, which is also a kind of Standard Action.

Otherwise, everything else should work fine as far as I can remember. Precise Shot always work, Point Blank Shot always works (when within 30ft), Far Shot always works. Just be mindful of the kinds of Actions required.
BananaB
01-09-08, 08:20 PM I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM.
Talisman
01-09-08, 08:39 PM It's not a judgement call; it's the rules. Rapid Shot requires a full attack action. Manyshot requires a standard action. The two action types are mutually exclusive; you can't take a standard action as part of a full attack action.

Your GM made a house rule in your favor.
Cartigan
01-09-08, 08:43 PM I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM.
That isn't even remotely correct. Rapid Shot is ranged flurry - you get one extra attack at your highest BAB when taking a full attack action (a specific type of action). Using Manyshot is specifically a standard action. Using the manyshot feat is using your standard action for the round, you can't full attack.
BugHunter
01-09-08, 09:08 PM I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM.

This is covered in the FAQ.

Can other feats like Precise Shot and Rapid Shot be used in connection with Manyshot?
Precise Shot, yes; Rapid Shot, no. The latter requires the full attack action, and using Manyshot is a standard action.
MrCustomer
01-11-08, 11:21 PM This makes little sense to not be able to use Manyshot as part of a full attack action.

You need +6 base attack in order to get the Many shot feat, Many SHot allows you to fire 2 arrows but only 30 feet range max and you take a -4 to your attack and only roll for one arrow, you can also only get 1 critical hit for the first arrow.

However, if you have a +6 base attack, you also have an additional +1 attack (+6/+1) That means you could fire one arrow at +6 and annother at +1 and gain potential critical hits with both arrows, and attack at your full range.

The Many Shot feat therefore makes you inferior, as you only roll once with only a +2 attack, risking missing with both arrows, rather then twice with a +6/+1.

Then you can fire three arrows when you have +11 attack, but at a -6 penelty. That is all three arrows with only a +5 to hit, rather then a full round attack with a solid +11/+6/+1.

It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action.
Cartigan
01-12-08, 12:33 AM Manyshot is a pre-req for other, better archery feats. Like Greater Manyshot and Improved Rapidshot.
smeagol_lied
01-12-08, 01:51 PM This makes little sense to not be able to use Manyshot as part of a full attack action.

You need +6 base attack in order to get the Many shot feat, Many SHot allows you to fire 2 arrows but only 30 feet range max and you take a -4 to your attack and only roll for one arrow, you can also only get 1 critical hit for the first arrow.

However, if you have a +6 base attack, you also have an additional +1 attack (+6/+1) That means you could fire one arrow at +6 and annother at +1 and gain potential critical hits with both arrows, and attack at your full range.

The Many Shot feat therefore makes you inferior, as you only roll once with only a +2 attack, risking missing with both arrows, rather then twice with a +6/+1.

Then you can fire three arrows when you have +11 attack, but at a -6 penelty. That is all three arrows with only a +5 to hit, rather then a full round attack with a solid +11/+6/+1.

It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action.
The point of manyshot, IMHO, is to allow an archer to fire as many arrows as he can in one full attack (excluding rapid shot, speed weapons and such) as a standard action, so he can then move, such as with shot on the run or mounted archery, so you have the choice to either stand still for a full round carefully aiming each shot, leaving you open to melee attacks and AoOs if melee warriors can close next round, or to fire as many arrows as you would be able to with less chance to hit, and then move so as to take less damage.
Kouk
01-13-08, 12:54 AM It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action.

If you are assuming that you will not move more than 5ft in any given round, then sure... The main consideration is the Actions required.

Let's say you only have a Standard Action to spend. So Manyshot will give you 2 arrows as a Standard at -4, which you can aim at multiple targets. The targets have to be within 30ft so you also have Point Blank to counter the penalty to a -3 total attack roll penalty but also +1 damage each. You can only crit once. At higher levels, Manyshot allows you to put more arrows into the air at slightly higher attack penalty, but not as much as the penalties for iterative attacks would be.

Using a "normal" Standard Action attack you can attack once at any range you normally could at whatever your normal attack roll is. You may not benefit from Point Blank Shot depending on range. You still get only a single possible crit. This never improves.

Comparing Manyshot to a full attack action at minimum level you can shoot 2 arrows at -3 penalties to both, or your can shoot 2 arrows with no penalty to the first but a -5 penalty to the second. You also have the option of moving or doing something else with a Move Action if you used Manyshot.

Since Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot, if you are going to spend a Full-round Action attacking with 2 shots, you could instead shoot 3 shots with a -2 to all. This is probably better than using a normal full attack unless you need every scrap of attack bonus to hit.

Why would you only have a Standard Action to spend? Maybe it is the surprise round and your side is attacking the other. Maybe you are Slowed. Maybe your target just moved around a corner so you want to follow him before firing. Maybe you were knocked Prone and have to stand up. Maybe you need to draw your bow first and can't/don't want to move. Maybe there is an enemy closing in on you and you want to get to a better position in some way before or after you shoot. Plenty of reasons.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cptevil 01-09-08, 05:17 PM	i have a ranged fighter and i was wondering how using more then one of them works like many shots and double shot works and if i use either do they work with presice shot i have another question but i forgot it :(
Kouk 01-09-08, 07:05 PM	The main point about ranged feat conflicts to remember is that Manyshot, Rapid Shot, and Shot on the Run are all not compatible with each other. Using Manyshot requires a Standard Action. Using Rapid Shot requires a full attack action, which is a Full-round Action. Using Shot on the Run uses a normal attack action, which is also a kind of Standard Action. Otherwise, everything else should work fine as far as I can remember. Precise Shot always work, Point Blank Shot always works (when within 30ft), Far Shot always works. Just be mindful of the kinds of Actions required.
BananaB 01-09-08, 08:20 PM	I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM.
Talisman 01-09-08, 08:39 PM	It's not a judgement call; it's the rules. Rapid Shot requires a full attack action. Manyshot requires a standard action. The two action types are mutually exclusive; you can't take a standard action as part of a full attack action. Your GM made a house rule in your favor.
Cartigan 01-09-08, 08:43 PM	I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM. That isn't even remotely correct. Rapid Shot is ranged flurry - you get one extra attack at your highest BAB when taking a full attack action (a specific type of action). Using Manyshot is specifically a standard action. Using the manyshot feat is using your standard action for the round, you can't full attack.
BugHunter 01-09-08, 09:08 PM	I've never heard that you can't use Rapid Shot and Manyshot together. An attack is a standard action, in which you can use manyshot. Rapid Shop gives you an extra attack and thus another use of manyshot. I can see how this can be interpreted both ways but every DM i've played with allowed their use together. I guess it is a judgement call so ask your DM. This is covered in the FAQ. Can other feats like Precise Shot and Rapid Shot be used in connection with Manyshot? Precise Shot, yes; Rapid Shot, no. The latter requires the full attack action, and using Manyshot is a standard action.
MrCustomer 01-11-08, 11:21 PM	This makes little sense to not be able to use Manyshot as part of a full attack action. You need +6 base attack in order to get the Many shot feat, Many SHot allows you to fire 2 arrows but only 30 feet range max and you take a -4 to your attack and only roll for one arrow, you can also only get 1 critical hit for the first arrow. However, if you have a +6 base attack, you also have an additional +1 attack (+6/+1) That means you could fire one arrow at +6 and annother at +1 and gain potential critical hits with both arrows, and attack at your full range. The Many Shot feat therefore makes you inferior, as you only roll once with only a +2 attack, risking missing with both arrows, rather then twice with a +6/+1. Then you can fire three arrows when you have +11 attack, but at a -6 penelty. That is all three arrows with only a +5 to hit, rather then a full round attack with a solid +11/+6/+1. It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action.
Cartigan 01-12-08, 12:33 AM	Manyshot is a pre-req for other, better archery feats. Like Greater Manyshot and Improved Rapidshot.
smeagol_lied 01-12-08, 01:51 PM	This makes little sense to not be able to use Manyshot as part of a full attack action. You need +6 base attack in order to get the Many shot feat, Many SHot allows you to fire 2 arrows but only 30 feet range max and you take a -4 to your attack and only roll for one arrow, you can also only get 1 critical hit for the first arrow. However, if you have a +6 base attack, you also have an additional +1 attack (+6/+1) That means you could fire one arrow at +6 and annother at +1 and gain potential critical hits with both arrows, and attack at your full range. The Many Shot feat therefore makes you inferior, as you only roll once with only a +2 attack, risking missing with both arrows, rather then twice with a +6/+1. Then you can fire three arrows when you have +11 attack, but at a -6 penelty. That is all three arrows with only a +5 to hit, rather then a full round attack with a solid +11/+6/+1. It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action. The point of manyshot, IMHO, is to allow an archer to fire as many arrows as he can in one full attack (excluding rapid shot, speed weapons and such) as a standard action, so he can then move, such as with shot on the run or mounted archery, so you have the choice to either stand still for a full round carefully aiming each shot, leaving you open to melee attacks and AoOs if melee warriors can close next round, or to fire as many arrows as you would be able to with less chance to hit, and then move so as to take less damage.
Kouk 01-13-08, 12:54 AM	It seems that Many Shot feat would be inferior in almost every way and pointless to take unless it stacked with the Full Attack Action. If you are assuming that you will not move more than 5ft in any given round, then sure... The main consideration is the Actions required. Let's say you only have a Standard Action to spend. So Manyshot will give you 2 arrows as a Standard at -4, which you can aim at multiple targets. The targets have to be within 30ft so you also have Point Blank to counter the penalty to a -3 total attack roll penalty but also +1 damage each. You can only crit once. At higher levels, Manyshot allows you to put more arrows into the air at slightly higher attack penalty, but not as much as the penalties for iterative attacks would be. Using a "normal" Standard Action attack you can attack once at any range you normally could at whatever your normal attack roll is. You may not benefit from Point Blank Shot depending on range. You still get only a single possible crit. This never improves. Comparing Manyshot to a full attack action at minimum level you can shoot 2 arrows at -3 penalties to both, or your can shoot 2 arrows with no penalty to the first but a -5 penalty to the second. You also have the option of moving or doing something else with a Move Action if you used Manyshot. Since Rapid Shot is a prerequisite for Manyshot, if you are going to spend a Full-round Action attacking with 2 shots, you could instead shoot 3 shots with a -2 to all. This is probably better than using a normal full attack unless you need every scrap of attack bonus to hit. Why would you only have a Standard Action to spend? Maybe it is the surprise round and your side is attacking the other. Maybe you are Slowed. Maybe your target just moved around a corner so you want to follow him before firing. Maybe you were knocked Prone and have to stand up. Maybe you need to draw your bow first and can't/don't want to move. Maybe there is an enemy closing in on you and you want to get to a better position in some way before or after you shoot. Plenty of reasons.