Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korlall 02-11-08, 02:23 AM	Hey. On this feat description, it says "when you use attack option"... this sounds like you can only make a single attack while moving... Am I right... can't a make a full-attack then ? If not, that's bad for 2 reasons... 1- ranged skirmish is not really useful then... better not moving and shoting with 3 attacks than one with skirmish... let's say you have a +2 frost composite longbow (with +1 Str bonus)... better shoot 3 arrows doing then (1d8+1+2+1d4)X3 for an average of 35 damage than a single arrow doing 1d8+1+2+1d4+5d6 which you make an average of 27.5 dmg... 2- I think the feat is quite useless if not. Comapred to his melee counterpart, Spring attack, shot on the run is no big deal... In melee, I can imagine a fighter wanting to move foward big foe, slashing a weaker foe on his route... But in ranged combat, the character is likely to shoot the foe whether he is shooting DURING of AFTER moving... The only situation in which i see benefits from this is that if there is a corridor with a room at the end or even a "T" corridor, the shooter can be out the sight of creature within the corridor. He can move to cover and shooting in the corridor way as he walks... So the foes will just see at the end of the corridor a shooter pass by and shoot at them... Even that, this is quite useless because : 1- If the foes in the corridor has no ranged attacks, they couldn't shoot back at the character even if he hasn't Shot on the run feat... The character could jsut has been standing at the end of corridor and making a full round attack at foes, which would have been more efficient. 2- If the foes in the corridor do have range arsenal, even if they could have been hit by a single arrow, they still could counter attack the next round using ready action as "Whenever some dude walks in my line of sight, i full attack him" in this way, the feat is still useless. So except if there's something i didn't saw about the feat, if the shot on the run doesn't permit FULL RANGED ATTACK, then the feat is totally useless... Literally talking, for me, shot on the run is walking and shooting at the same time.. if a 20th scout can make 3 shots in a 6 seconds rounds, then he could shot the same amount of arrows in the same time if he is moving... So, does Shot-On-The-Run permit FUll attack.... and if not, why should a scout or even character without skirmish would take this feat....?
Optimator 02-11-08, 02:42 AM	So, does Shot-On-The-Run permit FUll attack.... and if not, why should a scout or even character without skirmish would take this feat....? Of course you can't full attack with Shot on the Run. The advantage is darting out behind cover, attacking, then going back.
Kouk 02-11-08, 03:13 AM	You can only make a single shot with it. "Cover" can also be cover that your enemies are making use of, including allies being in the way of your shot. You could move to get a clear shot, then move right back where you were, so now your ally is granting you cover against a retaliatory ranged attack :P Normally for a single attack, you Move and then Attack, or else you Attack, and then Move. With Shot on the Run, you Move, Attack, Move, which can get you quite a long distance with a Scout's movement boost. With this ability to move very long distances and still shoot, you now can keep your scout well out of reach of an enemy or enemies who is/are pursuing you, and still get Skirmish damage and AC bonuses. EDIT: This is opposed to Moving all the way and then shooting, which might put you out of a range increment or block your line of sight or allow an enemy to benefit from cover. Certain feats which allow you to do special maneuvers with arrows can also be used with Shot on the Run, such as Ranged Pin or Ranged Disarm.
mplindustries 02-11-08, 03:26 AM	Hey. On this feat description, it says "when you use attack option"... this sounds like you can only make a single attack while moving... Am I right... can't a make a full-attack then ? If not, that's bad for 2 reasons... 1- ranged skirmish is not really useful then... better not moving and shoting with 3 attacks than one with skirmish... let's say you have a +2 frost composite longbow (with +1 Str bonus)... better shoot 3 arrows doing then (1d8+1+2+1d4)X3 for an average of 35 damage than a single arrow doing 1d8+1+2+1d4+5d6 which you make an average of 27.5 dmg... This is what Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) is for. 2- I think the feat is quite useless if not. Comapred to his melee counterpart, Spring attack, shot on the run is no big deal... In melee, I can imagine a fighter wanting to move foward big foe, slashing a weaker foe on his route... But in ranged combat, the character is likely to shoot the foe whether he is shooting DURING of AFTER moving... The only situation in which i see benefits from this is that if there is a corridor with a room at the end or even a "T" corridor, the shooter can be out the sight of creature within the corridor. He can move to cover and shooting in the corridor way as he walks... So the foes will just see at the end of the corridor a shooter pass by and shoot at them... Even that, this is quite useless because : 1- If the foes in the corridor has no ranged attacks, they couldn't shoot back at the character even if he hasn't Shot on the run feat... The character could jsut has been standing at the end of corridor and making a full round attack at foes, which would have been more efficient. 2- If the foes in the corridor do have range arsenal, even if they could have been hit by a single arrow, they still could counter attack the next round using ready action as "Whenever some dude walks in my line of sight, i full attack him" in this way, the feat is still useless. So except if there's something i didn't saw about the feat, if the shot on the run doesn't permit FULL RANGED ATTACK, then the feat is totally useless... Literally talking, for me, shot on the run is walking and shooting at the same time.. if a 20th scout can make 3 shots in a 6 seconds rounds, then he could shot the same amount of arrows in the same time if he is moving... So, does Shot-On-The-Run permit FUll attack.... and if not, why should a scout or even character without skirmish would take this feat....? Yes, it is in fact a pretty lousy feat. I honestly think Spring Attack is overrated as well, though. Getting only a single attack action is pretty terrible, for almost any class.
Zog_Jakome 02-11-08, 03:52 AM	where is that feat???!!! (greater manyshot) but yes you only get one attack with shot on the run. I used to have a scout that had this feat I realized that most of the time he never needed to move again after firing so I switched out the feat for improved critical. also consider other items and feats you could use to optimize skirmish, skirmisher boots(magic item compendium), rogue's vest(magic item compendium), improved skirmish(complete scoundrel) just those 3 right there adds 3d6+2 to your already existing 5d6 skirmish and you have a chance to make 2 skirmish attacks instead of 1 twice per day. and on top of that the skirmish damage is guaranteed if you hit just once, with the 3 attacks you need to hit 3 seperate times to deal extra damage.
dman11235 02-11-08, 12:37 PM	SotR is a pretty bad feat for dealing lots of damage. It's only useful for ducking in and out of cover to get clear shots, especially since you can't manyshot with it. Greater Many Shot is in the XPH, or the SRD in my sig. It's not psionic, so no worries there. The benefit here is that you get it all the time as opposed to magic items that don't always work (AMF) and have limited use. Another feat route is Travel Devotion (CC). I'd like to make a paladin or cleric/scout sometime and see how it works out.
StruckingFuggle 02-11-08, 05:52 PM	where is that feat???!!! (greater manyshot) Right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm). Well, on that page, at least.
Bopple 02-11-08, 11:49 PM	Sorry for sidetracking, but.. Mplindustries, this thread reminded me of having forgotten to tell you something in the OotBI thread. You cannot skirmish while riding a mount.
mplindustries 02-12-08, 01:06 AM	Sorry for sidetracking, but.. Mplindustries, this thread reminded me of having forgotten to tell you something in the OotBI thread. You cannot skirmish while riding a mount. That wasn't me who suggested that. I'm well aware of that rule, and I only didn't bring that up myself because there was someone who was even more wrong that I felt deserved more attention at the time. ;) In any case, it is a good thing to have known for someone who appears new to scouts.
Bopple 02-12-08, 07:45 AM	Oops.. my memory played tricks on me...
runestar 02-12-08, 08:14 AM	Note that you cannot combine shot on the run with manyshot (or greater manyshot). The latter requires a standard action to use, shot on the run only allows you 1 attack (which is not analogous to a standard action, else, a wizard with bab+16 could cast 4 spells each round).;)
Lyndis 02-13-08, 03:43 AM	It's too bad you can't Skirmish while mounted. Would Scouts be broken if they could?
dman11235 02-13-08, 12:44 PM	It would change things, yes. When mounted, an archer can full attack afterwards. Also, it wouldn't make sense.
mplindustries 02-13-08, 08:06 PM	I'm pretty sure there is an option from an issue of Dragon that gives scouts something from horseback. I think it was skirmish, but the drawback was you couldn't actually do it when you weren't mounted anymore. I don't remember, its on the base class list at Crystal Keep.
Lyndis 02-13-08, 08:22 PM	It would change things, yes. When mounted, an archer can full attack afterwards. Also, it wouldn't make sense. change things how? you can already get off all your shots while moving anyways. Mounts just provide another option to do so.
dman11235 02-13-08, 10:21 PM	You can't make a full attack after you move. If mounted, an archer can.
Lyndis 02-13-08, 11:24 PM	You can already use (Greater) manyshot to shoot all of your arrows. Plus, with Travel Devotion, you can move as a swift action, and then full-attack. Using this while mounted isn't giving anything that isn't already possible. It just provides an alternate method.
dman11235 02-13-08, 11:52 PM	Does mounted require a lot of investment? No, it doesn't. Grt Manyshot requires quite a few feats and incurs a penalty. Travel Devotion only works 1/day unless you pur more resources into it. Also, while mounted, you aren't ducking and weaving around like you would be on foot. That's why it doesn't work flavor wise.
mplindustries 02-14-08, 12:40 AM	Does mounted require a lot of investment? No, it doesn't. Grt Manyshot requires quite a few feats and incurs a penalty. Travel Devotion only works 1/day unless you pur more resources into it. Also, while mounted, you aren't ducking and weaving around like you would be on foot. That's why it doesn't work flavor wise. No, skirmish doesn't work at all flavorwise. "I move around a lot, so I can hit you really precisely now!" No, it makes very little sense and is a metagame system band-aid intended to provide some power to a very common tactic in real combat that was previously quite suboptimal in D&D. Its purely abstracted. The only reason it does more damage is because you gave up easy extra attacks to get it. The only reason it counts as precision damage is that everything else dealing extra d6s is as well. "Dear Wizards, I want to play a very mobile character, but I can't do enough damage! WHINE!" "Ok, well, here's skirmish." "Dear Wizards, skirmish is cool, but it doesn't work because I wanted to look like those anime samurai duels where they run by the other guy and he falls in half 3 seconds later. Skirmish is more like I'm some guy in the woods." "Ok, well, here's the Tome of Battle." Don't get me wrong, I like both. Not so much the manuevers, but the Stances definitely, and I love Swift Hunters. However, neither makes any sense at all from even D&D's skewed believability. Its all abstraction, just a math game, and in my opinion, its just the way the system should be. I don't want any roleplaying company spilling their obnoxious fluff into my delicious crunch. I can tell my own story, thank you, I just need your dice mechanics. Anyway, so why shouldn't you get skirmish from a mount? What dman already said. It would take literally zero effort. The Skirmisher would lose absolutely nothing. Its all about math, and the math says everyone can ride a horse. Not everyone can use Greater Manyshot. I'd be surprised to see skirmishing and greater manyshot in any build significantly before level 9. Look at it this way: You don't get skirmish from scout, you get dangerous melee skirmish from a dip into Barbarian for Pounce, and you get safer, but slightly weaker archery skirmish from four feat slots, 17 Dex, and a +6 BAB.
Sinfire Titan 02-14-08, 01:00 AM	SotR is a pretty bad feat for dealing lots of damage. It's only useful for ducking in and out of cover to get clear shots, especially since you can't manyshot with it. Greater Many Shot is in the XPH, or the SRD in my sig. It's not psionic, so no worries there. The benefit here is that you get it all the time as opposed to magic items that don't always work (AMF) and have limited use. Another feat route is Travel Devotion (CC). I'd like to make a paladin or cleric/scout sometime and see how it works out. Isn't there a variant of the Paladin that gives FE over Smite Evil? If so, that would qualify you for Swift Hunter, and thus give you the Awesome.
Korlall 02-14-08, 01:26 AM	It is I who started the thread I think this went away from the origin... With your help, I know I can't use skirmish while mounting (which from my point of view was obvious anyway), i can't rapid shot nor manyshot using skirmish (since the character will not have enough action)... So is there anyway i can fire more than one arrow using skirmish. I don't want to know about some spell-like ability that can be used X times a day or the like... I mean a passive way, by mean of feats or class. So maybe even with spells (so the wizard or cleric can help) that will allow me to benefit from skirmish damage on more than one ranged attack per round ?
mplindustries 02-14-08, 01:32 AM	It is I who started the thread I think this went away from the origin... With your help, I know I can't use skirmish while mounting (which from my point of view was obvious anyway), i can't rapid shot nor manyshot using skirmish (since the character will not have enough action)... So is there anyway i can fire more than one arrow using skirmish. I don't want to know about some spell-like ability that can be used X times a day or the like... I mean a passive way, by mean of feats or class. So maybe even with spells (so the wizard or cleric can help) that will allow me to benefit from skirmish damage on more than one ranged attack per round ? Scroll up to post #4 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15062163&postcount=4) where I answered just that. Here's the link again: Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) Its in the SRD, so I consider it core, though it first appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook despite not being psionic related.
Lyndis 02-14-08, 01:51 AM	Does mounted require a lot of investment? No, it doesn't. Grt Manyshot requires quite a few feats and incurs a penalty. Travel Devotion only works 1/day unless you pur more resources into it. Also, while mounted, you aren't ducking and weaving around like you would be on foot. That's why it doesn't work flavor wise. Umm...it requires that you maintain a mount, which can be killed easily.
Captain_Kobold 02-14-08, 08:50 AM	Failing that, the only way that occurs to me would be if you are high level and have access to Tome of Battle. The 5th level White Raven maneuver Press the Advantage allows you to take an additional 5ft step each round, giving you skirmish on a full attack action. Downside is that if you want to stay as a single-class scout, you can't take it until level 18. :weep: Your best bet is, as pointed out earlier, Greater Manyshot. You can't use it with Shot on the run, but with a normal move then attack, you are fine.
Korlall 02-14-08, 10:27 AM	Scroll up to post #4 where I answered just that. Here's the link again: Greater Manyshot Its in the SRD, so I consider it core, though it first appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook despite not being psionic related. Failing that, the only way that occurs to me would be if you are high level and have access to Tome of Battle. The 5th level White Raven maneuver Press the Advantage allows you to take an additional 5ft step each round, giving you skirmish on a full attack action. Downside is that if you want to stay as a single-class scout, you can't take it until level 18. :weep: Your best bet is, as pointed out earlier, Greater Manyshot. You can't use it with Shot on the run, but with a normal move then attack, you are fine. Thank you guys, I have my answer :)
Merestil Haye 02-14-08, 10:40 AM	It is I who started the thread I think this went away from the origin... With your help, I know I can't use skirmish while mounting (which from my point of view was obvious anyway), i can't rapid shot nor manyshot using skirmish (since the character will not have enough action)... So is there anyway i can fire more than one arrow using skirmish. I don't want to know about some spell-like ability that can be used X times a day or the like... I mean a passive way, by mean of feats or class. So maybe even with spells (so the wizard or cleric can help) that will allow me to benefit from skirmish damage on more than one ranged attack per round ?Yes there is, but it does not involve Shot on the Run. You need an item that grants you a Fly speed. You gain the following feats : Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot and Flyby Attack. The differences between Shot on the Run and Flyby Attack is that Flyby Attack allows the creature to take any standard action while moving, but Shot on the Run allows only the attack action. Using Manyshot (and thus Greater Manyshot) requires the Use Feat action, and Manyshot specifies that this is a standard action. Thus Manyshot can be used as part of a flyby attack (but not a shot on the run). The Greater Manyshot allows precision damage to apply to all arrows that hit.
dman11235 02-14-08, 01:20 PM	Okay, here are the ways I know of to get more than one arrow off as a scout. It is impossible to get more than one arrow off using SotR. Travel Devotion: swift action move. DC 40 tumble check: 10 ft step. Greater Manyshot: standard action more than one arrow fired. Press The Advantage: multiple 5' steps. Level 7 of Elocater: extra 5' step. EDIT: Sinfire: that wouldn't work, since it would stack ranger and scout, but you would qualify for the feat. Maybe be reasonable and houserule that it applies to Paladin too. that would be a fun character. I'm going to see if I can play it.
Korlall 02-14-08, 10:27 PM	Then, Greater manyshot is gonna be the way i'm gonna use... shooting 3 arrows at level 20 of scout... and maybe with some highland stalker class for beter BAB and Skirmish increases... Thank you all.
dman11235 02-14-08, 10:46 PM	Try scout 4/ranger 16 with Swift Hunter (CSc). And then Improved Skirmish from the same book. That gets you BAB 19, full skirmish, and full Favored Enemy, and ranger spells. EDIT: Sinfire: I talked to my DM, and now I am going to play a Pixie barbarian...barbarian/scout. He's letting SH stack barb and scout if I take the variant barbarian from UA. Unfortunately the paladin wasn't too appealing, since the variant gets rid of turning as well. And that was the crux of the plan.
Optimator 02-15-08, 12:37 AM	I always rationalized Skirmish as Sneak-Attack lite. The scout uses the mobility to attack in such a way that the enemy doesn't really expect it and thereby doing extra damage. Kinda like the enemy is half flat-footed.
Sinfire Titan 02-15-08, 09:51 AM	Try scout 4/ranger 16 with Swift Hunter (CSc). And then Improved Skirmish from the same book. That gets you BAB 19, full skirmish, and full Favored Enemy, and ranger spells. EDIT: Sinfire: I talked to my DM, and now I am going to play a Pixie barbarian...barbarian/scout. He's letting SH stack barb and scout if I take the variant barbarian from UA. Unfortunately the paladin wasn't too appealing, since the variant gets rid of turning as well. And that was the crux of the plan. Damn. Oh well. Take Trickery Devotion for real shenanigans with Travel Devotion/Skirmish builds.