Shot on the run; not w/ full attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shot on the run; not w/ full attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
johniemi
03-23-07, 04:20 AM Please let me know if I got this correct...

In a game where I'm a DM I have ruled that the group's archer can either;

A) take a move action (move 40ft), and use manyshot to fire his arrows at any point during that movement (i.e., move 10ft - use manyshot - move 30ft).

or

B) not take a move action and use a full-round action to use his rapid shot feat.

The problem is the player wanted to use RAPID shot with shot on the run because the wording for shot on the run says that you can use it "...when using the attack action...", so he figured an "attack action" = full round action.

I say "attack action" refers to a single attack, i.e., standard action. Thus MANYshot is still useable with shot on the run, but RAPID shot is not.

I just think it would be crazy if you could make a full attack, with an additional attack from rapid shot, and move your base speed - all in one round.

-John
draco1119
03-23-07, 05:04 AM You are correct. In this case, "attack action" is used instead of "standard action" because it doesn't apply to other standard actions, like quaffing a potion, casting a spell, etc. Otherwise, it would state, "full round attack" or similar.
Inigo Carmine
03-23-07, 08:26 AM A) take a move action (move 40ft), and use manyshot to fire his arrows at any point during that movement (i.e., move 10ft - use manyshot - move 30ft).

Is the correct answer with 1 problem: You can't use manyshot with shot on the run. Manyshot is its own standard action, not an attack action. It's the same reason you can't use manyshot (or cast spells) mutliple times as part of a full attack. Full attacks let you make multiple attack actions, not multiple unique standard actions. Shot on the run lets you split your move around a single (ranged) attack action, not a unique standard action that happens to incorporate a ranged attack.
johniemi
03-23-07, 10:06 AM Is the correct answer with 1 problem: You can't use manyshot with shot on the run. Manyshot is its own standard action, not an attack action. It's the same reason you can't use manyshot (or cast spells) mutliple times as part of a full attack. Full attacks let you make multiple attack actions, not multiple unique standard actions. Shot on the run lets you split your move around a single (ranged) attack action, not a unique standard action that happens to incorporate a ranged attack.

Are you sure? So why would anyone take manyshot as rapid shot is so much better? Were starting our game in 8 hours so I'd like to get a final ruling for this matter.

I always thought that manyshot is just like a single melee attack but you're just so good with bows that you can put multiple arrows on the string at the same time and fire away.

-John
strenoth
03-23-07, 10:16 AM rapid shot only increases yoru attacks by +1 when taking a Full Action. Many shot activates on a Stanard Action, so you cna move your normal 30', and fire w/ many shot.
Inigo Carmine
03-23-07, 10:22 AM rapid shot only increases yoru attacks by +1 when taking a Full Action. Many shot activates on a Stanard Action, so you cna move your normal 30', and fire w/ many shot.

Bingo. I also find it useful for readied actions as well.
Frugal
03-23-07, 10:30 AM Are you sure? So why would anyone take manyshot as rapid shot is so much better? Were starting our game in 8 hours so I'd like to get a final ruling for this matter.

I always thought that manyshot is just like a single melee attack but you're just so good with bows that you can put multiple arrows on the string at the same time and fire away.

Shot on the run explicitly states it only allows a ranged attack and manyshot explicitly states it's a standard action, so no they can't be combined.

But as has been stated already, manyshot does allow you to shoot more than 1 arrow and then move (like behind some cover, out of a range increment, etc) or allow you to ready an action to fire more than 1 arrow.
Frugal
03-23-07, 10:33 AM Oh, just a preemptive post, a lot of people like to say, "but there's no such thing as an attack action! It's only a standard, move or full-round action" (well free, swift and immediate in there too).

But, you'll notice on the chart of standard actions that attack (melee) and attack (ranged) are both listed there. So "attack" is a specific standard action. So if any rule says "attack action" it's referring to that specific standard action.
jaelis
03-23-07, 10:45 AM The FAQ is clear that Shot on the Run and Multishot do not work together. The rules themselves are not so clear, but a careful reading does support the FAQ. People are confused by it all the time though, since it does seem like they should work, given the actions involved.

I think not letting them work together was a bad call by the designers. Neither SotR or Manyshot are very good feats. They have some use, but only in fairly special situations. An archer would be foolish to take either in place of Rapid Shot.

But if you allowed them to work together, that suddenly opens up some real options. The skirmishing archer becomes a reasonable strategy, which make the game more fun. I don't think it's at all overpowered... the attack penalties for Manyshot are large enough, and it does cost you two feats.

So I say: houserule that Multishot and Shot on the Run work together. It's more fun and less confusing.
Frugal
03-23-07, 10:52 AM So I say: houserule that Multishot and Shot on the Run work together. It's more fun and less confusing.

Until someone takes greater manyshot and then basically gets a full-attack action combined with shot on the run.
jaelis
03-23-07, 10:56 AM Greater manyshot exists to make manyshot worthwhile. If you use my houserule, then SotR makes manyshot worthwhile. So just don't play with greater manyshot.

Or say that greater manyshot doesn't work with shot on the run. We're houseruling, its not hard to fix.
Someone
03-23-07, 01:38 PM Well, there's nothing stopping the archer from making a Manyshot and then moving. Or moving and then making a Manyshot. I don't see why its so vital to have to move before and after making a Manyshot.
Frugal
03-23-07, 01:51 PM Well, there's nothing stopping the archer from making a Manyshot and then moving. Or moving and then making a Manyshot. I don't see why its so vital to have to move before and after making a Manyshot.

Move around corner, manyshot, move back to behind corner (or cover or similar), makes it much tougher to be hit.
paladin2019
03-23-07, 03:17 PM Move around corner, manyshot, move back to behind corner (or cover or similar), makes it much tougher to be hit.

Or from cover 1, fire in the open, continue move to cover 2. Oh, and get skirmish bennies.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
johniemi 03-23-07, 04:20 AM	Please let me know if I got this correct... In a game where I'm a DM I have ruled that the group's archer can either; A) take a move action (move 40ft), and use manyshot to fire his arrows at any point during that movement (i.e., move 10ft - use manyshot - move 30ft). or B) not take a move action and use a full-round action to use his rapid shot feat. The problem is the player wanted to use RAPID shot with shot on the run because the wording for shot on the run says that you can use it "...when using the attack action...", so he figured an "attack action" = full round action. I say "attack action" refers to a single attack, i.e., standard action. Thus MANYshot is still useable with shot on the run, but RAPID shot is not. I just think it would be crazy if you could make a full attack, with an additional attack from rapid shot, and move your base speed - all in one round. -John
draco1119 03-23-07, 05:04 AM	You are correct. In this case, "attack action" is used instead of "standard action" because it doesn't apply to other standard actions, like quaffing a potion, casting a spell, etc. Otherwise, it would state, "full round attack" or similar.
Inigo Carmine 03-23-07, 08:26 AM	A) take a move action (move 40ft), and use manyshot to fire his arrows at any point during that movement (i.e., move 10ft - use manyshot - move 30ft). Is the correct answer with 1 problem: You can't use manyshot with shot on the run. Manyshot is its own standard action, not an attack action. It's the same reason you can't use manyshot (or cast spells) mutliple times as part of a full attack. Full attacks let you make multiple attack actions, not multiple unique standard actions. Shot on the run lets you split your move around a single (ranged) attack action, not a unique standard action that happens to incorporate a ranged attack.
johniemi 03-23-07, 10:06 AM	Is the correct answer with 1 problem: You can't use manyshot with shot on the run. Manyshot is its own standard action, not an attack action. It's the same reason you can't use manyshot (or cast spells) mutliple times as part of a full attack. Full attacks let you make multiple attack actions, not multiple unique standard actions. Shot on the run lets you split your move around a single (ranged) attack action, not a unique standard action that happens to incorporate a ranged attack. Are you sure? So why would anyone take manyshot as rapid shot is so much better? Were starting our game in 8 hours so I'd like to get a final ruling for this matter. I always thought that manyshot is just like a single melee attack but you're just so good with bows that you can put multiple arrows on the string at the same time and fire away. -John
strenoth 03-23-07, 10:16 AM	rapid shot only increases yoru attacks by +1 when taking a Full Action. Many shot activates on a Stanard Action, so you cna move your normal 30', and fire w/ many shot.
Inigo Carmine 03-23-07, 10:22 AM	rapid shot only increases yoru attacks by +1 when taking a Full Action. Many shot activates on a Stanard Action, so you cna move your normal 30', and fire w/ many shot. Bingo. I also find it useful for readied actions as well.
Frugal 03-23-07, 10:30 AM	Are you sure? So why would anyone take manyshot as rapid shot is so much better? Were starting our game in 8 hours so I'd like to get a final ruling for this matter. I always thought that manyshot is just like a single melee attack but you're just so good with bows that you can put multiple arrows on the string at the same time and fire away. Shot on the run explicitly states it only allows a ranged attack and manyshot explicitly states it's a standard action, so no they can't be combined. But as has been stated already, manyshot does allow you to shoot more than 1 arrow and then move (like behind some cover, out of a range increment, etc) or allow you to ready an action to fire more than 1 arrow.
Frugal 03-23-07, 10:33 AM	Oh, just a preemptive post, a lot of people like to say, "but there's no such thing as an attack action! It's only a standard, move or full-round action" (well free, swift and immediate in there too). But, you'll notice on the chart of standard actions that attack (melee) and attack (ranged) are both listed there. So "attack" is a specific standard action. So if any rule says "attack action" it's referring to that specific standard action.
jaelis 03-23-07, 10:45 AM	The FAQ is clear that Shot on the Run and Multishot do not work together. The rules themselves are not so clear, but a careful reading does support the FAQ. People are confused by it all the time though, since it does seem like they should work, given the actions involved. I think not letting them work together was a bad call by the designers. Neither SotR or Manyshot are very good feats. They have some use, but only in fairly special situations. An archer would be foolish to take either in place of Rapid Shot. But if you allowed them to work together, that suddenly opens up some real options. The skirmishing archer becomes a reasonable strategy, which make the game more fun. I don't think it's at all overpowered... the attack penalties for Manyshot are large enough, and it does cost you two feats. So I say: houserule that Multishot and Shot on the Run work together. It's more fun and less confusing.
Frugal 03-23-07, 10:52 AM	So I say: houserule that Multishot and Shot on the Run work together. It's more fun and less confusing. Until someone takes greater manyshot and then basically gets a full-attack action combined with shot on the run.
jaelis 03-23-07, 10:56 AM	Greater manyshot exists to make manyshot worthwhile. If you use my houserule, then SotR makes manyshot worthwhile. So just don't play with greater manyshot. Or say that greater manyshot doesn't work with shot on the run. We're houseruling, its not hard to fix.
Someone 03-23-07, 01:38 PM	Well, there's nothing stopping the archer from making a Manyshot and then moving. Or moving and then making a Manyshot. I don't see why its so vital to have to move before and after making a Manyshot.
Frugal 03-23-07, 01:51 PM	Well, there's nothing stopping the archer from making a Manyshot and then moving. Or moving and then making a Manyshot. I don't see why its so vital to have to move before and after making a Manyshot. Move around corner, manyshot, move back to behind corner (or cover or similar), makes it much tougher to be hit.
paladin2019 03-23-07, 03:17 PM	Move around corner, manyshot, move back to behind corner (or cover or similar), makes it much tougher to be hit. Or from cover 1, fire in the open, continue move to cover 2. Oh, and get skirmish bennies.