Should Combat Casting give +5 or +6 bonus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Should Combat Casting give +5 or +6 bonus? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FrostHammer
02-25-07, 06:30 PM Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting.

To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively?
Bopple
02-25-07, 07:42 PM But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it.
StevenO
02-25-07, 07:44 PM The bonus could be improved although I'd also consider other options.

Perhaps the best option would to have other VERY useful things have Combat Casting as a prereq.

You could let the Combat Caster have an item in hand (weapon) while performing Somatic Components instead of requiring a "free" hand to cast with. This little change would go a long way to making the feat more popular in some groups.
Ghostwheel
02-25-07, 07:45 PM But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it.

Which makes it balanced, which Bopple failed to mention.
FrostHammer
02-25-07, 07:56 PM That's like saying Toughness is a balanced feat because Dwarven Defender requires it.

I'm sorry, I don't base balance based on other classes that I potentially won't be looking at anyways.
Leress
02-25-07, 08:06 PM But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it.

The question is how good are these Prestige classes and if it worth using a lesser feat to get them?
jaelis
02-25-07, 08:40 PM A feat letting you take 10 on checks to cast defensively would be a nice alternative.
Bopple
02-25-07, 08:50 PM That's like saying Toughness is a balanced feat because Dwarven Defender requires it.
Toughness and Improved Toughness have a large gap of powerlevel.
But Combat Casting and Skill Focus(spellcraft) do not.

Which makes it balanced, which Bopple failed to mention.
Actually, I deliberately omit the evaluation, because personally I don't like the way they handled it.
FrostHammer
02-25-07, 09:04 PM The gap isn't as big, but still most people won't take Combat Focus unless it's required for a build.

that's why I'm suggestin a small boost for the feat. +5 or +6 instead of +4.
Bopple
02-25-07, 09:16 PM The problem is, none ever takes Skill Focus(Concentration), while some take Combat Casting.
Stat-wise, maybe SF(Concentration) is slightly better than Combat Casting.
But just because of PrC, Combat Casting is already BETTER than SF(Concentration), overall.

I am not saying I like the way they implemented it, but simply stating a fact.
Pangeon
02-25-07, 09:27 PM Our DM just ruled out Combat Casting, and replaced any PrC/Feat requirements with SF (Concentration.)

Saying, "well, this good PrC requires it, so that makes it balanced," is a really poor way to justify sub-par feats, in my opinion.
FrostHammer
02-25-07, 09:29 PM The problem is, none ever takes Skill Focus(Concentration), while some take Combat Casting.
Stat-wise, maybe SF(Concentration) is slightly better than Combat Casting.
But just because of PrC, Combat Casting is already BETTER than SF(Concentration), overall.

I am not saying I like the way they implemented it, but simply stating a fact.

I think there are a few PRCs that make you do a LOT of cencentration checks for the cool abilities, but I understand your reasoning. I still think that Combat Casting could use a bit of work.
navar100
02-25-07, 11:37 PM Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting.

To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively?

I don't agree it's "much better". I don't even agree you should never have both. For an arcane caster or a druid, both probably aren' needed. For a cleric, they do go well together. A cleric will often be in the thick of battle. He as many touch spells for buffing and healing. When he wants to cast a spell, he wants to cast the spell *now*, and defensive casting to avoid the AoO is important.

However, a cleric will want to cast his highest level spell. He wants to avoid the AoO and potentially losing the spell. With a 14 Con, max ranks, and both feats, barring any penalty to skill roll such as being shaken or an enemy's Prayer, starting at level 4 the cleric will always make the defensive casting roll for his highest spell level even if he rolls a 1. Always adding one to concentration every odd level up to level 17 keeps it this way, saving skill points for other skills. Anything more allows for coverage against penalty to skill rolls such as being shaken.

Without both feats, it is possible to reach this "threshold" at some higher level. However, having the threshold *now* as opposed to later could be very important. Having it at 4th level, 5th level, 6th level could make all the difference in the world than having to wait until 9th or 11th level.

Still, increasing Combat Casting to +6 will mean the threshold will be reach at level 6 with a 14 CO and no Skill Focus. Some clerics may be willing to wait until then in exchange for needing one less feat. If there's a bard in the party, then it's definitely worth waiting.
Jaxgaret
02-25-07, 11:44 PM If one doesn't use low-powered feats as requirements for high-powered PrCs, how exactly does one go about balancing them, hmm?
risner
02-26-07, 12:07 PM Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting.

To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively?

No, Combat Casting is by design the way it is. Changing it turns a "bad feat often used for pre-reqs" into a "great feat often used for pre-reqs."

Doesn't sound proper to me.

If you feel a +5 or +6 bonus is balanced, make a feat called "Military Combat Casting" and make it have +5 or +6 bonus (and never use it as a pre-req in any PrC.)
Vegepygmy
02-26-07, 01:43 PM Our DM just ruled out Combat Casting, and replaced any PrC/Feat requirements with SF (Concentration.)This is how I have handled it as well.
Willie the Duck
02-26-07, 03:54 PM The gap isn't as big, but still most people won't take Combat Focus unless it's required for a build.

that's why I'm suggestin a small boost for the feat. +5 or +6 instead of +4.

But increasing the bonus doesn't really help. Taking skill focus, you can already have 7+ your con bonus as a concentration roll modifier at first level. You get to the point where you automatically combat cast your spells very quickly. Even if the combat casting feat instead read: "you don't need to roll to see if you combat cast when threatened in melee. You automatically succeed" it still wouldn't be that useful, because skill focus effectively does that, but also gives you a bonus to getting your spell off if suffering continuous damage, are grappled, or someone prepares an attack to hit you if you cast a spell; none of which you can combat cast to negate.
Rhuxley
02-26-07, 04:01 PM I just realized Skill focus(concentration) & Combat Casting stack.
a +7 to just about the only use ofconcentration sounds pretty good to me as a use for 2 feats.
Compaired to weapon focus & weapon specialization. its good IMO

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 06:30 PM	Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting. To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively?
Bopple 02-25-07, 07:42 PM	But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it.
StevenO 02-25-07, 07:44 PM	The bonus could be improved although I'd also consider other options. Perhaps the best option would to have other VERY useful things have Combat Casting as a prereq. You could let the Combat Caster have an item in hand (weapon) while performing Somatic Components instead of requiring a "free" hand to cast with. This little change would go a long way to making the feat more popular in some groups.
Ghostwheel 02-25-07, 07:45 PM	But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it. Which makes it balanced, which Bopple failed to mention.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 07:56 PM	That's like saying Toughness is a balanced feat because Dwarven Defender requires it. I'm sorry, I don't base balance based on other classes that I potentially won't be looking at anyways.
Leress 02-25-07, 08:06 PM	But Combat Casting is better for one thing, bunch of PrCs require it. The question is how good are these Prestige classes and if it worth using a lesser feat to get them?
jaelis 02-25-07, 08:40 PM	A feat letting you take 10 on checks to cast defensively would be a nice alternative.
Bopple 02-25-07, 08:50 PM	That's like saying Toughness is a balanced feat because Dwarven Defender requires it. Toughness and Improved Toughness have a large gap of powerlevel. But Combat Casting and Skill Focus(spellcraft) do not. Which makes it balanced, which Bopple failed to mention. Actually, I deliberately omit the evaluation, because personally I don't like the way they handled it.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 09:04 PM	The gap isn't as big, but still most people won't take Combat Focus unless it's required for a build. that's why I'm suggestin a small boost for the feat. +5 or +6 instead of +4.
Bopple 02-25-07, 09:16 PM	The problem is, none ever takes Skill Focus(Concentration), while some take Combat Casting. Stat-wise, maybe SF(Concentration) is slightly better than Combat Casting. But just because of PrC, Combat Casting is already BETTER than SF(Concentration), overall. I am not saying I like the way they implemented it, but simply stating a fact.
Pangeon 02-25-07, 09:27 PM	Our DM just ruled out Combat Casting, and replaced any PrC/Feat requirements with SF (Concentration.) Saying, "well, this good PrC requires it, so that makes it balanced," is a really poor way to justify sub-par feats, in my opinion.
FrostHammer 02-25-07, 09:29 PM	The problem is, none ever takes Skill Focus(Concentration), while some take Combat Casting. Stat-wise, maybe SF(Concentration) is slightly better than Combat Casting. But just because of PrC, Combat Casting is already BETTER than SF(Concentration), overall. I am not saying I like the way they implemented it, but simply stating a fact. I think there are a few PRCs that make you do a LOT of cencentration checks for the cool abilities, but I understand your reasoning. I still think that Combat Casting could use a bit of work.
navar100 02-25-07, 11:37 PM	Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting. To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively? I don't agree it's "much better". I don't even agree you should never have both. For an arcane caster or a druid, both probably aren' needed. For a cleric, they do go well together. A cleric will often be in the thick of battle. He as many touch spells for buffing and healing. When he wants to cast a spell, he wants to cast the spell now, and defensive casting to avoid the AoO is important. However, a cleric will want to cast his highest level spell. He wants to avoid the AoO and potentially losing the spell. With a 14 Con, max ranks, and both feats, barring any penalty to skill roll such as being shaken or an enemy's Prayer, starting at level 4 the cleric will always make the defensive casting roll for his highest spell level even if he rolls a 1. Always adding one to concentration every odd level up to level 17 keeps it this way, saving skill points for other skills. Anything more allows for coverage against penalty to skill rolls such as being shaken. Without both feats, it is possible to reach this "threshold" at some higher level. However, having the threshold now as opposed to later could be very important. Having it at 4th level, 5th level, 6th level could make all the difference in the world than having to wait until 9th or 11th level. Still, increasing Combat Casting to +6 will mean the threshold will be reach at level 6 with a 14 CO and no Skill Focus. Some clerics may be willing to wait until then in exchange for needing one less feat. If there's a bard in the party, then it's definitely worth waiting.
Jaxgaret 02-25-07, 11:44 PM	If one doesn't use low-powered feats as requirements for high-powered PrCs, how exactly does one go about balancing them, hmm?
risner 02-26-07, 12:07 PM	Everyone agrees that Skill Focus (Concentration) is much better than Combat Casting. To make Combat Casting better, should the bonus be improved to +5 or even +6 to Concentration while casting defensively? No, Combat Casting is by design the way it is. Changing it turns a "bad feat often used for pre-reqs" into a "great feat often used for pre-reqs." Doesn't sound proper to me. If you feel a +5 or +6 bonus is balanced, make a feat called "Military Combat Casting" and make it have +5 or +6 bonus (and never use it as a pre-req in any PrC.)
Vegepygmy 02-26-07, 01:43 PM	Our DM just ruled out Combat Casting, and replaced any PrC/Feat requirements with SF (Concentration.)This is how I have handled it as well.
Willie the Duck 02-26-07, 03:54 PM	The gap isn't as big, but still most people won't take Combat Focus unless it's required for a build. that's why I'm suggestin a small boost for the feat. +5 or +6 instead of +4. But increasing the bonus doesn't really help. Taking skill focus, you can already have 7+ your con bonus as a concentration roll modifier at first level. You get to the point where you automatically combat cast your spells very quickly. Even if the combat casting feat instead read: "you don't need to roll to see if you combat cast when threatened in melee. You automatically succeed" it still wouldn't be that useful, because skill focus effectively does that, but also gives you a bonus to getting your spell off if suffering continuous damage, are grappled, or someone prepares an attack to hit you if you cast a spell; none of which you can combat cast to negate.
Rhuxley 02-26-07, 04:01 PM	I just realized Skill focus(concentration) & Combat Casting stack. a +7 to just about the only use ofconcentration sounds pretty good to me as a use for 2 feats. Compaired to weapon focus & weapon specialization. its good IMO