Should Feats scale with Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Should Feats scale with Level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
04-07-07, 01:35 AM Characters get a limited number of feats per level, so the question is should these feats scale with level? The original idea with feats was that feats with higher prerequisites would grant greater benefits, but this means that a character hurts themself if they purchase a low prerequisite feat with a higher level feat slot; they lose out on the power they could have gotten had they chosen a feat of their power level. Because it would be difficult to come up with a feat pricing system, I'm thinking that feats should scale with level to some point.

Now, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of PHB feats aren't a problem. These feats either grant you a new combat action, or improve combat actions you already had; these are useful at almost all levels because your base attacks improve with your abilty scores and equipment. Mostly, this ends up affecting things like Psionic feats, which grant static bonuses that may or may not become too low in value at higher levels, or other various new feat systems in different sources.

Within the PHB, though, +2 damage (weapon specialization) may or may not be worth much at high levels. The most simple option is to have feats which require non-scaling feats as a prerequisite to improve them, but this falls into the trap of forcing characters down a certain feat path in order to be competant.

I've seen many people suggest scaling feat systems, and I believe there are even systems which advocate such. What is the general consensus here?
DarkRhystar
04-07-07, 04:16 PM What is the general consensus here?

Good luck finding a consensus on anything here. :)

Personally, I wouldn't mind scaling so much. Kind of seems silly that only spells and Improved Toughness really scale with levels.

If nothing else, it's a thought.
Nadaka
04-08-07, 01:56 AM This is the internet. There is no such thing as consensus.

Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes.

Scaling feats would be a good thing. Weapon specialization, toughness, skill focus and others would all benifit from scaling.
IonizedChicken
04-08-07, 07:41 AM Yes, I think many (though not all) feats should scale with level. And you are wrong in saying there aren't many examples of feats that should scale, but do not, in the PHB. Examples:
Weapon Focus, G. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., G. Weapon Spec., Toughness, +2/+2 skill feats, Skill Focus.

I honestly think if +2/+2 skill feats would scale people might well get them. Something along the lines of 2 +1/4 levels should be appropriate. Same with skill focus -- 2 + 1/3 levels or something.
Banatine
04-08-07, 07:52 AM feats should scale, if it is logical.

Toughness should scale, but that's why they made the improved tougness feat. The bloodline feats (from dragon compendium) scale, but they are sorcerer only. The skill feats should scale, and things like dodge should scale. +1 to AC is practically worthless later on. there are some feats that might be more practical, but a bit too powerful, if they scaled like TWF and TWD.
Kresalak
04-08-07, 08:21 AM Check out Races of War. It can be found on the Classes forum.
Airos
04-08-07, 08:31 AM This is the internet. There is no such thing as consensus.

Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes.

Scaling feats would be a good thing. Weapon specialization, toughness, skill focus and others would all benifit from scaling.

But what about the non-fighter? As far as I can recall, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization are the only feats in the PHB that are Fighter exclusive. Allowing these feats to scale would add an increase to the effective power level of the fighter and no other class.

Toughness, (admittedly a weak feat no matter how you look at it), Skill Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, (another feat I've seen a few debates over as to if it should scale or not), the "+2/+2" feats, and many other feats all add power to the rest of the classes, not just the fighter. Some of these feats, while not having the staying power at higher levels, shouldn't be tinkered with too much in my opinion.

Let's take Skill Focus and the "+2/+2" feats for example. Who wouldn't take these feats? For the cost of one, maybe two feats, you can quickly max out the skills necessary for your chosen class, while still keeping pace with the other skills you want, but don't have the skill points to spend on.

A Wizard can spend his 2+(int modifier) skill points per level on Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, and pick up, say, Alertness to keep Spot and Listen up to snuff.

A Ranger can worry about Spot, Listen, Search, and Survival, while "dumping" a feat or two into Skill Focus to keep Knowledge (Nature) and Handle Animal high enough to still function.

Even worse is in the hands of a Rogue. They have enough skill points and class skills to actually put 5 ranks into everything they want and/or need to get almost all the synergy bonuses. Once the 5 ranks are in place, a couple of feats will cover whatever skills they don't want to continue to spend skill points on, while still increasing their total modifier.

Toughness, (still a sub-par feat), should be handled carefully. I have, in fact, house-ruled that this feat instead grants +1 hp per hit die. I personally made this choice because I only have two players in my current group, and felt that this would help to reduce the mortality rate. Just remember, this is equal to an increase in hit die size.

d4 2.5
d6 3.5
d8 4.5
d10 5.5
d12 6.5

This does have the potential to create an unbalance the Hit Point totals of characters. Even more so if it continues to stack each time you take the feat. A Wizard would only have to take it 4 times to be getting, on average, the Hit Points of a Barbarian. This can easily be done at first level if the DM isn't paying close attention, (one feat from 1st class level, one bonus feat from being a human, two bonus feats using the optional Unearthed Arcana Flaws).

My greatest fear, however, is what all of this could do in the hands of the CoDzilla. Why bother playing a Rogue for skill points when you can just take a Skill Focus a couple of times? Why bother playing a Fighter for Hit Points when you can just take Toughness? A Cleric only needs a couple of feats to be really powerful, (Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell and a couple of Metamagic. Maybe an Extra Turning), and a Druid only needs the one, (Natural Spell) Anything more than those are "free" so to speak. Giving them more "skill points" and Hit Points just seems like overkill.

While this has been a rather lengthy post, it continues to only be my :twocents:
Ra-Tiel
04-08-07, 08:59 AM [...] What is the general consensus here?
I think the problem is two-fold in this regard.

First, for the low amount of feat "slots" characters receive (a non-human character that is not a fighter or wizard usually only has 7 feats for his whole career, including "flavor" or "background" feats) most feats just don't make it through my cost-benefit-calculation. Why should I bother spending a slot on "Alertness", when "Extra Spell" or "Empower Spell" is so much more useful for my sorcerer?

Making feats scale with level (or even better: with BAB respectively CL) (c|w)ould encourage players to take feats fitting a character's background or flavor better, instead of intentionally weakening him by selecting subpar feats.

Second, there is little motivation to take the weak feats. There are almost no feat trees worth of investing into subpar feats (with PHb2 trying to remedy this). There is no real benefit a character at level 18 gains from having taken "Alertness". The meager bonus to Spot/Listen is irrelevant at that level, and there are no other feats the character would have qualified for. In all regards, "Alertness" has become a dead and useless feat.

If there were expanded feat trees (and a general increase in the number of feat slots) players would be rewarded for taking "weak" feats. There would be more powerful options available from each feat, and no "dead ends" like in the current system.

For my own personal system (which seriously messes around with the d20 rules in general, too much to explain here), I went with option #2, as it seemed easier to implement. At first level, each character has 2 feats open, receives his 3rd feat at level 2, and then gains an extra feat at every even level. This grants a normal character 17 feats till level 30.

Additionally, there are no "standalone" feats. Each feat (to a certain degree) opens up a whole tree with additional choices. Therefore, taking a weak feat opens up potentionally powerful higher-tier feats.
Skill focus: +2 to chosen skill
+ Improved skill focus: 1/day reroll skill check
++ Superior skill focus: 1/day take 10 regardless of circumstances
+++ Skill mastery: no penalties for poor quality tools
++++ Skill supremacy: bonus for aid another increases to +4
+++++ Skill transcendency: 1/day take 20 regardless of circumstances
Also, despite many feats granting only 1/day abilities, a character can use these abilities more often by spending Karma points (another mechanic I've been messing around with; basically they are like action points that can be rebought with XPs).

I think for my system this approach works best, as there are no "infinity loop" epic levels, and character progression is cut to a strict 30 level frame.

--------- Edit ---------
@Airos: The problem is that certain feats are just useless after a certain level. For example, while "Alertness" may work at level 1 or 3 to give the fighter a chance of keeping up with sneaking rogues and assassins, at level 18 the differences between the maxed Hide/Move silently and unoptimized Listen/Spot skills is too big to even bother with the feat. It probably wouldn't even affect your chances of detecting a rogue (even if he rolled a 1 and you rolled a 20 you probably still wouldn't find him).

Similar, "Skill focus" is almost always only used to qualify for PrC or for optimized builds (Diplomacy, anyone?). Other than that, a normal character has just too little feat slots available to bother with it. Especially since WotC power creep also hits the monsters. Ever tried to pit a PHb-only party against monsters from MM3?

If you look at the benefit a certain feat gives you, this benefit is generally much less at higher level that it was at the level you took the feat. At level 1 "Toughness" may be a good idea, by level 6 you regret the choice. And that's the main problem. This is the reason why most characters only take feats that provide a tangible benefit throughout his whole career (combat maneuvers, additional spell slots/spells known, enhanced class abilities, ...).
Kursk
04-08-07, 09:59 AM Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes.

And this is one reason why the class doesn't scale.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
04-08-07, 12:05 PM But what about the non-fighter? As far as I can recall, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization are the only feats in the PHB that are Fighter exclusive. Allowing these feats to scale would add an increase to the effective power level of the fighter and no other class.

And your problem with that is? It might actually allow a Fighter to be good at the thing the entire class is based around.
Dheran
04-08-07, 07:10 PM Some feats already do scale to a certain extent.
Combat Expertise is limited to a total shift of 5 points, but scales with BAB up to there.
Combat Reflexes scales with DEX, which can be increased intrinsically, via enhancements, or at every 4th level.
Craft Magic Arms And Armor lets you make better gear at higher levels.
Craft Rod lets you make more powerful rods as your level increases.
Craft Staff lets you make more powerful staves as your level increases.
Craft Wondrous Item lets you make more powerful items for those things which have a caster level prerequisite, such as Pearls of Power.
The various metamagic feats can apply to more spells as you gain higher level spell slots.
Stunning Fist scales with your number of class levels (or monk levels, depending).
Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) gives more benefits as you gain more Rogue special abilities.
Craven (Champions of Ruin) scales strictly with character level, giving +1 damage per sneak attack.
Tonil
04-08-07, 07:41 PM One option is to not scale the feats with level, but rather rewrite higher feats to replace lower feats, and then let those be changed.

For example: Currently a fighter might take Weapon Focus (Greatsword) at level 1, and at level 8 take Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword). Rewrite GWF to grant +2 to hit on its own. The Weapon Focus is now superceeded, and you can now replace it with a new feat.

This would not increase the power of the feat, but it would make the character more versatile. After taking GWF (Greatsword) the fighter can then change Weapon Focus to Improved Trip, or something.

Granted, this might not work with all the feat trees. But it provides a boost without rewriting the feats themselves. And some feats, like Weapon Mastery, could use this very easily.

This idea comes from some other people's suggestions for fighter fixes and retraining in PHB2.
Airos
04-08-07, 09:11 PM And your problem with that is? It might actually allow a Fighter to be good at the thing the entire class is based around.

Perhaps I wasn't very clear in my post. It may not be a bad idea to try and increase the power level of the fighter, (I personally don't have any problem with them), but one can be successful only if you target those three feats.

The OP listed other feats, which I addressed, which add to the power level of all classes, not just the fighter. An increase to the fighter + an increase to everyone else = 0 change in power levels.
steenan
04-09-07, 11:22 AM In the campaign I currently run we use scaling feats. Only those from fighter bonus feat list were changed (though they scale for other classes too). The basic changes were:
1. Most feats that improve or allow for specific (imp. disarm, ride-by attack etc.) combat actions scale with BAB. At BAB 0 they are weaker than the PHB version (give only a part of normal bonuses, or give them with restrictions), at BAB 5 equivalent to book version, then improve at BAB 10, 15 and 20.
2. Most feats that give constant numeric bonuses in our campaign increase those bonuses with level (e.g. dodge gives +1 AC versus chosen enemy, +1 for 5 points of BAB)
3. Some feats that scaled but had low limits have those limits removed (e.g. Expertise may be used to move up to BAB points, not up to 5).
4. Some feats give additional bonuses to characters with high BAB. For example, imp. critical lets the player choose one specific kind of monster (not type; that is: vampire or zombie, not undead) that may now be dealt precision damage with the weapon the feat applies to.

It powered down a little melee characters at low levels and powered them up at high levels, with the fighter being most strongly affected. Seems to work well in play and help class balance.
tarkin
04-09-07, 03:09 PM I have never seen a non-professional do a scalling feat that does not start out being something someone would take as a starting feat fine, and not end as far too powerfull for a feat.

I.E.

Weapon Specialization is +2 to damage. The feat is supposed to be a 'game equalizer' for fighters, letting them stay competitive with other characters. That is, it is already supposed to be a good feat.

I could see a reasonable scalign feat along the lines of:

Scaling Weapon Spec.

Pre-req: Bab of 5+

Benefit: Add 1/5 of your max BAB to your damage done, round down.

At level 5-9: +1
At level 10-14: +2
At level 15-19: +3
At level 20-24: +4
-----------
Such a feat is fair. It works fine, and is comparable with Weapon Specialization

Instead the feat scalers are typically just trying to 'boost the power of their game', without admitting it. They use 1/3 instead of 1/5. Or they do it 1/5 but use to hit instead of damage. Either action would be appropriate for a Power Game.

There is NOTHING wrong with playing a Power Game. I do it often.

But I dislike underhanded attempts to 'upgrade' your power without first declaring that is what you are doing.

So while I see nothing wrong with Feat Scaling as a basic idea, I generally dislike the practice of doing it. It smells bad and looks slimy way too often.
Tony Vargas
04-09-07, 03:27 PM Characters get a limited number of feats per level, so the question is should these feats scale with level? A feat can reasonably scale with level if it doesn't 'stack' with other abilities that are scaling with level, and also doesn't 'stack' with other feats. Otherwise, you could end up with a feat-enhanced ability 'double scaling.'

For instance, Spell Penetration enhances an ability (Caster level) that scales with level, and it stacks with another feat, Greater Spell Penetration, and any other feats or whatever that boost caster level for that purpose.

You also have to be concerned with de-facto scaling. Any stat bonus, for instance, will tend to rise with level as bonuses to that stat from items or other sources are accumulated. A feat that boosts a check that's also affected by a stat bonus, even if it's /only/ affected by a stat bonus, is modifying a scaling ability. A feat that is based on a stat bonus might not scale itself, but as the stat bonus goes up, the feat becomes more potent.

If you can avoid all that, then, certainlly, some scaling feats wouldn't hurt.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-07-07, 01:35 AM	Characters get a limited number of feats per level, so the question is should these feats scale with level? The original idea with feats was that feats with higher prerequisites would grant greater benefits, but this means that a character hurts themself if they purchase a low prerequisite feat with a higher level feat slot; they lose out on the power they could have gotten had they chosen a feat of their power level. Because it would be difficult to come up with a feat pricing system, I'm thinking that feats should scale with level to some point. Now, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of PHB feats aren't a problem. These feats either grant you a new combat action, or improve combat actions you already had; these are useful at almost all levels because your base attacks improve with your abilty scores and equipment. Mostly, this ends up affecting things like Psionic feats, which grant static bonuses that may or may not become too low in value at higher levels, or other various new feat systems in different sources. Within the PHB, though, +2 damage (weapon specialization) may or may not be worth much at high levels. The most simple option is to have feats which require non-scaling feats as a prerequisite to improve them, but this falls into the trap of forcing characters down a certain feat path in order to be competant. I've seen many people suggest scaling feat systems, and I believe there are even systems which advocate such. What is the general consensus here?
DarkRhystar 04-07-07, 04:16 PM	What is the general consensus here? Good luck finding a consensus on anything here. :) Personally, I wouldn't mind scaling so much. Kind of seems silly that only spells and Improved Toughness really scale with levels. If nothing else, it's a thought.
Nadaka 04-08-07, 01:56 AM	This is the internet. There is no such thing as consensus. Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes. Scaling feats would be a good thing. Weapon specialization, toughness, skill focus and others would all benifit from scaling.
IonizedChicken 04-08-07, 07:41 AM	Yes, I think many (though not all) feats should scale with level. And you are wrong in saying there aren't many examples of feats that should scale, but do not, in the PHB. Examples: Weapon Focus, G. Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec., G. Weapon Spec., Toughness, +2/+2 skill feats, Skill Focus. I honestly think if +2/+2 skill feats would scale people might well get them. Something along the lines of 2 +1/4 levels should be appropriate. Same with skill focus -- 2 + 1/3 levels or something.
Banatine 04-08-07, 07:52 AM	feats should scale, if it is logical. Toughness should scale, but that's why they made the improved tougness feat. The bloodline feats (from dragon compendium) scale, but they are sorcerer only. The skill feats should scale, and things like dodge should scale. +1 to AC is practically worthless later on. there are some feats that might be more practical, but a bit too powerful, if they scaled like TWF and TWD.
Kresalak 04-08-07, 08:21 AM	Check out Races of War. It can be found on the Classes forum.
Airos 04-08-07, 08:31 AM	This is the internet. There is no such thing as consensus. Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes. Scaling feats would be a good thing. Weapon specialization, toughness, skill focus and others would all benifit from scaling. But what about the non-fighter? As far as I can recall, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization are the only feats in the PHB that are Fighter exclusive. Allowing these feats to scale would add an increase to the effective power level of the fighter and no other class. Toughness, (admittedly a weak feat no matter how you look at it), Skill Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, (another feat I've seen a few debates over as to if it should scale or not), the "+2/+2" feats, and many other feats all add power to the rest of the classes, not just the fighter. Some of these feats, while not having the staying power at higher levels, shouldn't be tinkered with too much in my opinion. Let's take Skill Focus and the "+2/+2" feats for example. Who wouldn't take these feats? For the cost of one, maybe two feats, you can quickly max out the skills necessary for your chosen class, while still keeping pace with the other skills you want, but don't have the skill points to spend on. A Wizard can spend his 2+(int modifier) skill points per level on Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft, and pick up, say, Alertness to keep Spot and Listen up to snuff. A Ranger can worry about Spot, Listen, Search, and Survival, while "dumping" a feat or two into Skill Focus to keep Knowledge (Nature) and Handle Animal high enough to still function. Even worse is in the hands of a Rogue. They have enough skill points and class skills to actually put 5 ranks into everything they want and/or need to get almost all the synergy bonuses. Once the 5 ranks are in place, a couple of feats will cover whatever skills they don't want to continue to spend skill points on, while still increasing their total modifier. Toughness, (still a sub-par feat), should be handled carefully. I have, in fact, house-ruled that this feat instead grants +1 hp per hit die. I personally made this choice because I only have two players in my current group, and felt that this would help to reduce the mortality rate. Just remember, this is equal to an increase in hit die size. d4 2.5 d6 3.5 d8 4.5 d10 5.5 d12 6.5 This does have the potential to create an unbalance the Hit Point totals of characters. Even more so if it continues to stack each time you take the feat. A Wizard would only have to take it 4 times to be getting, on average, the Hit Points of a Barbarian. This can easily be done at first level if the DM isn't paying close attention, (one feat from 1st class level, one bonus feat from being a human, two bonus feats using the optional Unearthed Arcana Flaws). My greatest fear, however, is what all of this could do in the hands of the CoDzilla. Why bother playing a Rogue for skill points when you can just take a Skill Focus a couple of times? Why bother playing a Fighter for Hit Points when you can just take Toughness? A Cleric only needs a couple of feats to be really powerful, (Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell and a couple of Metamagic. Maybe an Extra Turning), and a Druid only needs the one, (Natural Spell) Anything more than those are "free" so to speak. Giving them more "skill points" and Hit Points just seems like overkill. While this has been a rather lengthy post, it continues to only be my :twocents:
Ra-Tiel 04-08-07, 08:59 AM	[...] What is the general consensus here? I think the problem is two-fold in this regard. First, for the low amount of feat "slots" characters receive (a non-human character that is not a fighter or wizard usually only has 7 feats for his whole career, including "flavor" or "background" feats) most feats just don't make it through my cost-benefit-calculation. Why should I bother spending a slot on "Alertness", when "Extra Spell" or "Empower Spell" is so much more useful for my sorcerer? Making feats scale with level (or even better: with BAB respectively CL) (c\|w)ould encourage players to take feats fitting a character's background or flavor better, instead of intentionally weakening him by selecting subpar feats. Second, there is little motivation to take the weak feats. There are almost no feat trees worth of investing into subpar feats (with PHb2 trying to remedy this). There is no real benefit a character at level 18 gains from having taken "Alertness". The meager bonus to Spot/Listen is irrelevant at that level, and there are no other feats the character would have qualified for. In all regards, "Alertness" has become a dead and useless feat. If there were expanded feat trees (and a general increase in the number of feat slots) players would be rewarded for taking "weak" feats. There would be more powerful options available from each feat, and no "dead ends" like in the current system. For my own personal system (which seriously messes around with the d20 rules in general, too much to explain here), I went with option #2, as it seemed easier to implement. At first level, each character has 2 feats open, receives his 3rd feat at level 2, and then gains an extra feat at every even level. This grants a normal character 17 feats till level 30. Additionally, there are no "standalone" feats. Each feat (to a certain degree) opens up a whole tree with additional choices. Therefore, taking a weak feat opens up potentionally powerful higher-tier feats. Skill focus: +2 to chosen skill + Improved skill focus: 1/day reroll skill check ++ Superior skill focus: 1/day take 10 regardless of circumstances +++ Skill mastery: no penalties for poor quality tools ++++ Skill supremacy: bonus for aid another increases to +4 +++++ Skill transcendency: 1/day take 20 regardless of circumstances Also, despite many feats granting only 1/day abilities, a character can use these abilities more often by spending Karma points (another mechanic I've been messing around with; basically they are like action points that can be rebought with XPs). I think for my system this approach works best, as there are no "infinity loop" epic levels, and character progression is cut to a strict 30 level frame. --------- Edit --------- @Airos: The problem is that certain feats are just useless after a certain level. For example, while "Alertness" may work at level 1 or 3 to give the fighter a chance of keeping up with sneaking rogues and assassins, at level 18 the differences between the maxed Hide/Move silently and unoptimized Listen/Spot skills is too big to even bother with the feat. It probably wouldn't even affect your chances of detecting a rogue (even if he rolled a 1 and you rolled a 20 you probably still wouldn't find him). Similar, "Skill focus" is almost always only used to qualify for PrC or for optimized builds (Diplomacy, anyone?). Other than that, a normal character has just too little feat slots available to bother with it. Especially since WotC power creep also hits the monsters. Ever tried to pit a PHb-only party against monsters from MM3? If you look at the benefit a certain feat gives you, this benefit is generally much less at higher level that it was at the level you took the feat. At level 1 "Toughness" may be a good idea, by level 6 you regret the choice. And that's the main problem. This is the reason why most characters only take feats that provide a tangible benefit throughout his whole career (combat maneuvers, additional spell slots/spells known, enhanced class abilities, ...).
Kursk 04-08-07, 09:59 AM	Feats not scaling is one point on my list of flaws with the fighter, and to a slightly lesser degree the other melee classes. And this is one reason why the class doesn't scale.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 04-08-07, 12:05 PM	But what about the non-fighter? As far as I can recall, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus and Improved Weapon Specialization are the only feats in the PHB that are Fighter exclusive. Allowing these feats to scale would add an increase to the effective power level of the fighter and no other class. And your problem with that is? It might actually allow a Fighter to be good at the thing the entire class is based around.
Dheran 04-08-07, 07:10 PM	Some feats already do scale to a certain extent. Combat Expertise is limited to a total shift of 5 points, but scales with BAB up to there. Combat Reflexes scales with DEX, which can be increased intrinsically, via enhancements, or at every 4th level. Craft Magic Arms And Armor lets you make better gear at higher levels. Craft Rod lets you make more powerful rods as your level increases. Craft Staff lets you make more powerful staves as your level increases. Craft Wondrous Item lets you make more powerful items for those things which have a caster level prerequisite, such as Pearls of Power. The various metamagic feats can apply to more spells as you gain higher level spell slots. Stunning Fist scales with your number of class levels (or monk levels, depending). Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) gives more benefits as you gain more Rogue special abilities. Craven (Champions of Ruin) scales strictly with character level, giving +1 damage per sneak attack.
Tonil 04-08-07, 07:41 PM	One option is to not scale the feats with level, but rather rewrite higher feats to replace lower feats, and then let those be changed. For example: Currently a fighter might take Weapon Focus (Greatsword) at level 1, and at level 8 take Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword). Rewrite GWF to grant +2 to hit on its own. The Weapon Focus is now superceeded, and you can now replace it with a new feat. This would not increase the power of the feat, but it would make the character more versatile. After taking GWF (Greatsword) the fighter can then change Weapon Focus to Improved Trip, or something. Granted, this might not work with all the feat trees. But it provides a boost without rewriting the feats themselves. And some feats, like Weapon Mastery, could use this very easily. This idea comes from some other people's suggestions for fighter fixes and retraining in PHB2.
Airos 04-08-07, 09:11 PM	And your problem with that is? It might actually allow a Fighter to be good at the thing the entire class is based around. Perhaps I wasn't very clear in my post. It may not be a bad idea to try and increase the power level of the fighter, (I personally don't have any problem with them), but one can be successful only if you target those three feats. The OP listed other feats, which I addressed, which add to the power level of all classes, not just the fighter. An increase to the fighter + an increase to everyone else = 0 change in power levels.
steenan 04-09-07, 11:22 AM	In the campaign I currently run we use scaling feats. Only those from fighter bonus feat list were changed (though they scale for other classes too). The basic changes were: 1. Most feats that improve or allow for specific (imp. disarm, ride-by attack etc.) combat actions scale with BAB. At BAB 0 they are weaker than the PHB version (give only a part of normal bonuses, or give them with restrictions), at BAB 5 equivalent to book version, then improve at BAB 10, 15 and 20. 2. Most feats that give constant numeric bonuses in our campaign increase those bonuses with level (e.g. dodge gives +1 AC versus chosen enemy, +1 for 5 points of BAB) 3. Some feats that scaled but had low limits have those limits removed (e.g. Expertise may be used to move up to BAB points, not up to 5). 4. Some feats give additional bonuses to characters with high BAB. For example, imp. critical lets the player choose one specific kind of monster (not type; that is: vampire or zombie, not undead) that may now be dealt precision damage with the weapon the feat applies to. It powered down a little melee characters at low levels and powered them up at high levels, with the fighter being most strongly affected. Seems to work well in play and help class balance.
tarkin 04-09-07, 03:09 PM	I have never seen a non-professional do a scalling feat that does not start out being something someone would take as a starting feat fine, and not end as far too powerfull for a feat. I.E. Weapon Specialization is +2 to damage. The feat is supposed to be a 'game equalizer' for fighters, letting them stay competitive with other characters. That is, it is already supposed to be a good feat. I could see a reasonable scalign feat along the lines of: Scaling Weapon Spec. Pre-req: Bab of 5+ Benefit: Add 1/5 of your max BAB to your damage done, round down. At level 5-9: +1 At level 10-14: +2 At level 15-19: +3 At level 20-24: +4 ----------- Such a feat is fair. It works fine, and is comparable with Weapon Specialization Instead the feat scalers are typically just trying to 'boost the power of their game', without admitting it. They use 1/3 instead of 1/5. Or they do it 1/5 but use to hit instead of damage. Either action would be appropriate for a Power Game. There is NOTHING wrong with playing a Power Game. I do it often. But I dislike underhanded attempts to 'upgrade' your power without first declaring that is what you are doing. So while I see nothing wrong with Feat Scaling as a basic idea, I generally dislike the practice of doing it. It smells bad and looks slimy way too often.
Tony Vargas 04-09-07, 03:27 PM	Characters get a limited number of feats per level, so the question is should these feats scale with level? A feat can reasonably scale with level if it doesn't 'stack' with other abilities that are scaling with level, and also doesn't 'stack' with other feats. Otherwise, you could end up with a feat-enhanced ability 'double scaling.' For instance, Spell Penetration enhances an ability (Caster level) that scales with level, and it stacks with another feat, Greater Spell Penetration, and any other feats or whatever that boost caster level for that purpose. You also have to be concerned with de-facto scaling. Any stat bonus, for instance, will tend to rise with level as bonuses to that stat from items or other sources are accumulated. A feat that boosts a check that's also affected by a stat bonus, even if it's /only/ affected by a stat bonus, is modifying a scaling ability. A feat that is based on a stat bonus might not scale itself, but as the stat bonus goes up, the feat becomes more potent. If you can avoid all that, then, certainlly, some scaling feats wouldn't hurt.