Skill aid from familiars (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill aid from familiars (P.E.A.C.H.) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mesiolan
02-28-07, 02:00 AM The following may be obvious, but was not yet used in my games.

From the SRD:
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Skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.
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So a familiar has it’s own skill uses. This does mean, that my familiar can try a skill roll on most tasks my wizard is working on – making spot & listen checks vs. ambushes, decipher script on a moldy tome, and so on.

Thanks to the Empathy a familiar shares with the PC, the WIZ or SOR should gain an immediate input on any results of the familiar’s skill checks.

If I follow this thought a little further, it would result in the following mechanic: each time the character may do a skill check, which the familiar could do as well, I make both. And thanks to the Empathy, I take the better result of both checks for playing purposes.

From the SRD:
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Aid Another
You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.
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Alternatively the PC gets almost always a +2 bonus on his checks, when he gets aid from his familiar.

This could make a SOR an even better face of the group. The familiar makes sense motive checks (make one for the PC and one for the familiar), gives silent advice (aid another with diplomacy or bluff), and so on. A WIZ will almost constantly get a +2 bonus on his (already impressive) knowledge checks, or may roll twice and pick the better total result.

What kind of skills can be aided by the familiar should be discussed with the DM. I doubt it would be enough time to get the bonus from your familiar in the heat of battle for spellcraft checks (identify spells). Before the familiar has stated it’s opinion, the spell has gone off.

All the said stuff will be true for the psion’s Psicrystal as well.

Comments, please. Thanks.
Kouk
02-28-07, 04:58 AM OK, these are my thoughts, I will try to go in the same order as you presented. As I understand it, while you have an empathic link with a familiar it is still a separate creature. For Spot and Listen, a familiar would be entitled to his own checks just as a normal animal of its kind would be allowed. This would mean your caster would roll twice on each of these checks when the DM calls for them or you actively attempt them. It is possible that your familiar notices something you don't by rolling high, or having better night vision than you do (like an owl familiar for a human). With an empathic link, you would know your owl saw something, but not what he saw. If he saw something he was afraid of you could sense his fear but not the cause.

SRD: "Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated."

The PHB further defines "emotional content" as feelings of happiness, fear, hunger, and curiosity. If you have a rat familiar, it is quite possible he will transmit fear when he spots a housecat. In the case of ambushes, it seems that the familiar would be able to alert you to the presence of something sneaking around and give you a "heads up". If your familiar saw a branch move because of an invisible creature though, I would expect it would take a long time to figure that out on your part just by using empathy. "There's something over there? I don't see anything, what do you mean?" *Sneak attack* When you are high enough to gain 'Speak with Master' though, you would get much more specific information.
If you were actively trying to Spot or Listen, you could possibly be assisted but not in a reactive way of someone sneaking up on you.

From the SRD:
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Skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.
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Your other example of Decipher Script may have just been an bad example but most familiars wouldn't be able to help with that. Even if the familiar got the full benefit of its master's 10 ranks in Decipher Script, it won't do anything, I feel, because familiars can't read. Speak Language is a "skill" but it says it doesn't work like other skills in that you don't buy a "rank" in it, or make skill checks. While it isn't a pre-requisite I think it would be fair that (the concept of) reading is required to decipher something that is written (unless it is just a picture). Raven familiars can speak one language but speaking doesn't mean reading, or barbarians wouldn't be illiterate. Could a familiar use skill points to become literate? Maybe. In any event, the normal empathic bond wouldn't help much even if the familiar deciphered it perfectly. When it can talk to you and definitely decipher script then maybe it can start giving a +2 aid another bonus. I would consider Decipher Script one of those skills that is beyond familiars.

For Sense Motive, I'm not sure that skill can be assisted, at least not without a direct telepathic link. Sense motive is your "gut feeling" or "hunch" not really an objective fact like there is an owlbear behind that bush. At best, a familiar could roll independently and maybe transmit that he doesn't trust the person you are talking to, or that the other person might be magically influenced or trying to pass a secret message (if the familiar knows the language). If you can Speak with the familiar then he might even report what he thinks the hidden message is.

For assisting with Diplomacy checks, the familiar would have to have to be able to accomplish the task on his own before he can lend his assistance to someone else. No matter how charismatic a toad may be, I can't see him successfully using Diplomacy on a human. That would basically leave Ravens as the only ones who might help you, but as a DM, I would rule that having a bird chiming in every minute or so during your conversation would be distracting enough to negate any bonus (with regular magic-fearing folk at the least).

I think Bluff checks would be situational. Either hearing a talking bird would reinforce your claim ("My companion was horribly polymorphed into this bird, and I need donations to pay a wizard to change him back" said by a level 1 sorcerer to a country bumpkin) or not help at all ("Oh look at the cute talking bird, what else can it say?" or, "Wow! Are you a ventriloquist? Make it say something else!"). If you use a Bluff check to Feint in Combat though, a familiar might be very effective at distracting your opponent, "What the hell??? Did a hawk just poo on me?" *loses Dex*. I think there may be feats along those lines too (sans poo).

Psicrystals are kind of like familiars, but I don't know that much about them.
Puca
02-28-07, 04:17 PM It is all highly situational, but as a general rule, I go with somthing like this:

Skills that your familiar cannot help you with:
Balance, Concentration, Climb, Disguise, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Profession, Heal, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand

Skills your familiar can do on his own and may be worth you investing ranks in:
Bluff, Gather Information, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Sense Motive, Listen, Search, Spot, Spellcraft, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand

Things your familiar can aid you with:
Sense Motive (I think that his empathy, fear and distrust, is enough to help you.)
Decipher Script (Only if he can read and speak to you.)
Spellcraft (He can make checks on his own to know a spell being cast or recognize an effect, but while this might help him, he couldnt tell you unless he could speak. If he could read and speak, he might be able to help you decipher a spell.)
Gather Information (He can always find stuff out on his own, but he needs a way to communicate it to you.)
Appraise and Knowledge (Only if it could speak.)
Open Lock, Disable Device, Craft (If it had hands, maybe.)
Intimidate
Search
Survival (depending on the check, foraging for food, following tracks, predicting weather would work.)
Kouk
02-28-07, 09:01 PM I think Gather Information might work, if your familiar can talk to other people/things. So Gather Information and Diplomacy may be useful when the familiar can communicate with speech or if you are dealing with creatures of similar kind that he can communicate with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mesiolan 02-28-07, 02:00 AM	The following may be obvious, but was not yet used in my games. From the SRD: --------------------------------------------------- Skills For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use. --------------------------------------------------- So a familiar has it’s own skill uses. This does mean, that my familiar can try a skill roll on most tasks my wizard is working on – making spot & listen checks vs. ambushes, decipher script on a moldy tome, and so on. Thanks to the Empathy a familiar shares with the PC, the WIZ or SOR should gain an immediate input on any results of the familiar’s skill checks. If I follow this thought a little further, it would result in the following mechanic: each time the character may do a skill check, which the familiar could do as well, I make both. And thanks to the Empathy, I take the better result of both checks for playing purposes. From the SRD: --------------------------------------------------- Aid Another You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you are helping gets a +2 bonus to his or her check, as per the rule for favorable conditions. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. --------------------------------------------------- Alternatively the PC gets almost always a +2 bonus on his checks, when he gets aid from his familiar. This could make a SOR an even better face of the group. The familiar makes sense motive checks (make one for the PC and one for the familiar), gives silent advice (aid another with diplomacy or bluff), and so on. A WIZ will almost constantly get a +2 bonus on his (already impressive) knowledge checks, or may roll twice and pick the better total result. What kind of skills can be aided by the familiar should be discussed with the DM. I doubt it would be enough time to get the bonus from your familiar in the heat of battle for spellcraft checks (identify spells). Before the familiar has stated it’s opinion, the spell has gone off. All the said stuff will be true for the psion’s Psicrystal as well. Comments, please. Thanks.
Kouk 02-28-07, 04:58 AM	OK, these are my thoughts, I will try to go in the same order as you presented. As I understand it, while you have an empathic link with a familiar it is still a separate creature. For Spot and Listen, a familiar would be entitled to his own checks just as a normal animal of its kind would be allowed. This would mean your caster would roll twice on each of these checks when the DM calls for them or you actively attempt them. It is possible that your familiar notices something you don't by rolling high, or having better night vision than you do (like an owl familiar for a human). With an empathic link, you would know your owl saw something, but not what he saw. If he saw something he was afraid of you could sense his fear but not the cause. SRD: "Empathic Link (Su): The master has an empathic link with his familiar out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated." The PHB further defines "emotional content" as feelings of happiness, fear, hunger, and curiosity. If you have a rat familiar, it is quite possible he will transmit fear when he spots a housecat. In the case of ambushes, it seems that the familiar would be able to alert you to the presence of something sneaking around and give you a "heads up". If your familiar saw a branch move because of an invisible creature though, I would expect it would take a long time to figure that out on your part just by using empathy. "There's something over there? I don't see anything, what do you mean?" Sneak attack When you are high enough to gain 'Speak with Master' though, you would get much more specific information. If you were actively trying to Spot or Listen, you could possibly be assisted but not in a reactive way of someone sneaking up on you. From the SRD: --------------------------------------------------- Skills For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use. --------------------------------------------------- Your other example of Decipher Script may have just been an bad example but most familiars wouldn't be able to help with that. Even if the familiar got the full benefit of its master's 10 ranks in Decipher Script, it won't do anything, I feel, because familiars can't read. Speak Language is a "skill" but it says it doesn't work like other skills in that you don't buy a "rank" in it, or make skill checks. While it isn't a pre-requisite I think it would be fair that (the concept of) reading is required to decipher something that is written (unless it is just a picture). Raven familiars can speak one language but speaking doesn't mean reading, or barbarians wouldn't be illiterate. Could a familiar use skill points to become literate? Maybe. In any event, the normal empathic bond wouldn't help much even if the familiar deciphered it perfectly. When it can talk to you and definitely decipher script then maybe it can start giving a +2 aid another bonus. I would consider Decipher Script one of those skills that is beyond familiars. For Sense Motive, I'm not sure that skill can be assisted, at least not without a direct telepathic link. Sense motive is your "gut feeling" or "hunch" not really an objective fact like there is an owlbear behind that bush. At best, a familiar could roll independently and maybe transmit that he doesn't trust the person you are talking to, or that the other person might be magically influenced or trying to pass a secret message (if the familiar knows the language). If you can Speak with the familiar then he might even report what he thinks the hidden message is. For assisting with Diplomacy checks, the familiar would have to have to be able to accomplish the task on his own before he can lend his assistance to someone else. No matter how charismatic a toad may be, I can't see him successfully using Diplomacy on a human. That would basically leave Ravens as the only ones who might help you, but as a DM, I would rule that having a bird chiming in every minute or so during your conversation would be distracting enough to negate any bonus (with regular magic-fearing folk at the least). I think Bluff checks would be situational. Either hearing a talking bird would reinforce your claim ("My companion was horribly polymorphed into this bird, and I need donations to pay a wizard to change him back" said by a level 1 sorcerer to a country bumpkin) or not help at all ("Oh look at the cute talking bird, what else can it say?" or, "Wow! Are you a ventriloquist? Make it say something else!"). If you use a Bluff check to Feint in Combat though, a familiar might be very effective at distracting your opponent, "What the hell??? Did a hawk just poo on me?" loses Dex. I think there may be feats along those lines too (sans poo). Psicrystals are kind of like familiars, but I don't know that much about them.
Puca 02-28-07, 04:17 PM	It is all highly situational, but as a general rule, I go with somthing like this: Skills that your familiar cannot help you with: Balance, Concentration, Climb, Disguise, Jump, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Profession, Heal, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand Skills your familiar can do on his own and may be worth you investing ranks in: Bluff, Gather Information, Diplomacy, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Sense Motive, Listen, Search, Spot, Spellcraft, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand Things your familiar can aid you with: Sense Motive (I think that his empathy, fear and distrust, is enough to help you.) Decipher Script (Only if he can read and speak to you.) Spellcraft (He can make checks on his own to know a spell being cast or recognize an effect, but while this might help him, he couldnt tell you unless he could speak. If he could read and speak, he might be able to help you decipher a spell.) Gather Information (He can always find stuff out on his own, but he needs a way to communicate it to you.) Appraise and Knowledge (Only if it could speak.) Open Lock, Disable Device, Craft (If it had hands, maybe.) Intimidate Search Survival (depending on the check, foraging for food, following tracks, predicting weather would work.)
Kouk 02-28-07, 09:01 PM	I think Gather Information might work, if your familiar can talk to other people/things. So Gather Information and Diplomacy may be useful when the familiar can communicate with speech or if you are dealing with creatures of similar kind that he can communicate with.