Skill Groups or 'Blocks' vs Individual Skills! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Skill Groups or 'Blocks' vs Individual Skills! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Threefists
04-30-08, 07:10 AM Skill Blocks

Something that has been bugging me for a long, long time now is that the skill-points systems is rather limiting unless you are a Rogue or are a Human with the right feats and a substantial Int Bonus.

So taking a page from the Iron Heroes book (which I lack, at the moment) is the thought of replacing the individual Skills, all 45 of them, with 8 ‘Skill Blocks’. Each Skill-block contains 6 to 7 skills, and one point in each ‘block’ buys you one ‘rank’ in each individual skill, to which ability scores are added as a positive or negative, depending upon the scores in question. Certain skills are repeated in Skill Blocks because they ‘tie in’ with the different themes of the different Skill Blocks. Naturally, the ‘Skill Block’ with the highest ranks in it is used by the character when the skill check is rolled.

For example, let’s take a gander at the ‘Wilderness’ Skill Block.

[Wilderness Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival and Use Rope.

These are all handy skills to have ranks in should your character class be the outdoors type, such as a Barbarian, Ranger or Druid, and encompass a field of knowledge and skill that anyone who claims to live in harmony with nature should have at least a basic knowledge of.

Now, for contrast, let’s take a gander at the ‘Thief’ Skill Block.

[Thief Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.

Again, handy skills to have, but obvious Skills such as Bluff, Escape Artist and Forgery are not included so as to not ‘stack’ certain Skill Blocks too heavily.

Skill Blocks:

[Wilderness Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival and Use Rope.

[Merchant Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History), Speak Language.

[Thief Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand.

[Speechcraft Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive, Speak Language

[Deceit Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Perform (Act) and Sense Motive.

[Knowledge Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Six Knowledge Skills of the player’s choice.

[Sensory Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Concentration and/or Auto-Hypnosis (if you use Psionics), Listen, Perform (any single category), Search, Spot.

[Magic Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

[Movement Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Swim, Tumble.

[Miscellaneous Skill Block]
Associated Skills: Any three skills of the Player’s choice.

Now, this is just a random idea so bear with me on the subject, since I might have missed out a few skills, such as Profession and Craft, but I think those two skills should be inherent to any Character.

Now, how to assign the Skill Blocks? I think that a base of three Skill Blocks per character, plus 1 additional Skill Block for every pair of skill points above 2.

Thus a Fighter could choose Wilderness, Speechcraft and Movement Skill Blocks, thus retaining the normal skills of the class plus a few more that might help in situations outside of combat.

For contrast, a Sorcerer could choose Magic, Merchant and Misc Skill Blocks. While the Sorcerer loses access to Bluff, she gains more use out of her limited skill points and could use one of the three free skills from Misc to retake this skill.

A Druid, with 4 skill points, could pick Wilderness, Sensory, Magic and Movement to make for a knowledgeable hermit, able to overcome many, if not all, of the obstacles in her domain on foot if not in wildshape, while a Monk could choose Thief, Sensory, Magic and Movement to make a cunning and powerful spy.

Obviously the ‘Skill Blocks’ Idea isn’t polished yet, but I’m throwing it out there for you guys to have a look over and say ‘this needs fine tuning’ or ‘that doesn’t make sense’.
runestar
04-30-08, 07:20 AM Some of the skill classifications seem a little ambiguous. For example, UMD seems better off under deceit rather than magic.

Though my real issue with skill groups is the apparent lack of customization. What, is everyone equally adept in both bluff, diplomacy and intimidate? Are all athletes as good as each other in all the physical aspects (running, jumping, swimming)?

Seems like everyone will just end up being cookie cutter copies of one another, because they all pretty much have similar ranks in the same skills.
Talcon
04-30-08, 09:01 AM here another downside, will monsters now get to take the sensory block and pretty much stop pc's from sneaking?
Threefists
04-30-08, 08:03 PM That's why I put it out there, runestar. I can see the Skill Blocks being of great use to the majority of classes, but in their current incarnation they are, quite simply, too powerful.

Perhaps if the Skill Blocks were broken down into three skills?

Or one single skill was the 'Primary' skill and all others in the 'Block' took a -3 penalty?

Using the second option a Fighter could choose the [Speechcraft] skill block and pick Bluff as his 'Primary' skill for the purpose of feinting, and could have his maximum 4 ranks in it at 1st level, but for Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive and Speak Language only have a single rank.

This makes the Fighter unique without becoming a cookie-cutter or over-powered in terms of skill-ranks. And at 1st level 1 rank in Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Speak Language isn't a huge bonus, but it is handy to have. That's a additional language, which may or may not be unbalancing depending upon the game (again, this is just a rough idea!) and at least a basic knowledge of how to talk someone around.

At 5th level, assuming that the Fighter continues to devote 1 skill point to the [Speechcraft] Skill Block that is effectively 8 ranks in Bluff and 5 ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive and Speak Language.

Now just looking at that I can see that Speechcraft isn't going to work too well in the Skill Blocks. A) you'll run out of languages very soon and B) Somebody with a Int of 10 or around that mark isn't going to be able to keep learning new languages at the drop of a hat.

Again, this is just a idea that I've put out there.

Now, if we were to drop the Skill Blocks to just 3-4 skills per 'Block', then we might have this.

[Speechcraft] (Revised) Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive

This keeps the 'Knowledge' skills out of what is effectively 'talking' skills, Speak Language, which stacked the deck a bit too much for the [Speechcraft] Block is removed and kept aside for perhaps it's own Skill Block, and allows the Fighter to have decent verbal skills without becoming a master orator.

Again, any and all comments, queries and lynchings are welcome.

On to the topic of monsters and skill blocks, I was thinking more along the lines of that Classes, and not Racial Hit-Die, are capable of using Skill Blocks, but at the same point you raise a valid question, Talcon. Let's take a look at the Blackscale Lizardfolk. Gains 2 skill points per HD, multiplied by 4 at 1st HD. Using the above rules, a Blackscale would nominally take the [Sensory], [Movement] and [Wilderness] Skill Blocks...and that makes it a bit more powerful than most parties that tackle CR 3 enemies can handle. It would be able to hear the sweat dripping off the Cleric's chin and onto his holy symbol, spot the three-day-old mosquito-bite on the Rogue's left ear as the Rogue tried to sneak up on the Blackscale Lizardfolk and so on, and so forth.

Again, limiting the Skill Blocks to 3-4 skills at most and using a Primary and Secondary skills ruling (Primary has maximum skill ranks, Secondary skills have a -3 penalty to skill ranks) assures that the Blackscale Lizardfolk might be able to jump with ease over obstacles in the area it guards, and swim like a fish in the sea, and maybe even hear the PCs coming from behind a thick wooden door, but would it be able to spot them? Climb as fast as they could? No. Again, this is why I put the Skill Block idea out there because it's raw, unfinished and needs a hell of a lot of polish before I put it before my players.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Threefists 04-30-08, 07:10 AM	Skill Blocks Something that has been bugging me for a long, long time now is that the skill-points systems is rather limiting unless you are a Rogue or are a Human with the right feats and a substantial Int Bonus. So taking a page from the Iron Heroes book (which I lack, at the moment) is the thought of replacing the individual Skills, all 45 of them, with 8 ‘Skill Blocks’. Each Skill-block contains 6 to 7 skills, and one point in each ‘block’ buys you one ‘rank’ in each individual skill, to which ability scores are added as a positive or negative, depending upon the scores in question. Certain skills are repeated in Skill Blocks because they ‘tie in’ with the different themes of the different Skill Blocks. Naturally, the ‘Skill Block’ with the highest ranks in it is used by the character when the skill check is rolled. For example, let’s take a gander at the ‘Wilderness’ Skill Block. [Wilderness Skill Block] Associated Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival and Use Rope. These are all handy skills to have ranks in should your character class be the outdoors type, such as a Barbarian, Ranger or Druid, and encompass a field of knowledge and skill that anyone who claims to live in harmony with nature should have at least a basic knowledge of. Now, for contrast, let’s take a gander at the ‘Thief’ Skill Block. [Thief Skill Block] Associated Skills: Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand. Again, handy skills to have, but obvious Skills such as Bluff, Escape Artist and Forgery are not included so as to not ‘stack’ certain Skill Blocks too heavily. Skill Blocks: [Wilderness Skill Block] Associated Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Ride, Survival and Use Rope. [Merchant Skill Block] Associated Skills: Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (History), Speak Language. [Thief Skill Block] Associated Skills: Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock and Sleight of Hand. [Speechcraft Skill Block] Associated Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive, Speak Language [Deceit Skill Block] Associated Skills: Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Perform (Act) and Sense Motive. [Knowledge Skill Block] Associated Skills: Six Knowledge Skills of the player’s choice. [Sensory Skill Block] Associated Skills: Concentration and/or Auto-Hypnosis (if you use Psionics), Listen, Perform (any single category), Search, Spot. [Magic Skill Block] Associated Skills: Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device. [Movement Skill Block] Associated Skills: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Ride, Swim, Tumble. [Miscellaneous Skill Block] Associated Skills: Any three skills of the Player’s choice. Now, this is just a random idea so bear with me on the subject, since I might have missed out a few skills, such as Profession and Craft, but I think those two skills should be inherent to any Character. Now, how to assign the Skill Blocks? I think that a base of three Skill Blocks per character, plus 1 additional Skill Block for every pair of skill points above 2. Thus a Fighter could choose Wilderness, Speechcraft and Movement Skill Blocks, thus retaining the normal skills of the class plus a few more that might help in situations outside of combat. For contrast, a Sorcerer could choose Magic, Merchant and Misc Skill Blocks. While the Sorcerer loses access to Bluff, she gains more use out of her limited skill points and could use one of the three free skills from Misc to retake this skill. A Druid, with 4 skill points, could pick Wilderness, Sensory, Magic and Movement to make for a knowledgeable hermit, able to overcome many, if not all, of the obstacles in her domain on foot if not in wildshape, while a Monk could choose Thief, Sensory, Magic and Movement to make a cunning and powerful spy. Obviously the ‘Skill Blocks’ Idea isn’t polished yet, but I’m throwing it out there for you guys to have a look over and say ‘this needs fine tuning’ or ‘that doesn’t make sense’.
runestar 04-30-08, 07:20 AM	Some of the skill classifications seem a little ambiguous. For example, UMD seems better off under deceit rather than magic. Though my real issue with skill groups is the apparent lack of customization. What, is everyone equally adept in both bluff, diplomacy and intimidate? Are all athletes as good as each other in all the physical aspects (running, jumping, swimming)? Seems like everyone will just end up being cookie cutter copies of one another, because they all pretty much have similar ranks in the same skills.
Talcon 04-30-08, 09:01 AM	here another downside, will monsters now get to take the sensory block and pretty much stop pc's from sneaking?
Threefists 04-30-08, 08:03 PM	That's why I put it out there, runestar. I can see the Skill Blocks being of great use to the majority of classes, but in their current incarnation they are, quite simply, too powerful. Perhaps if the Skill Blocks were broken down into three skills? Or one single skill was the 'Primary' skill and all others in the 'Block' took a -3 penalty? Using the second option a Fighter could choose the [Speechcraft] skill block and pick Bluff as his 'Primary' skill for the purpose of feinting, and could have his maximum 4 ranks in it at 1st level, but for Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive and Speak Language only have a single rank. This makes the Fighter unique without becoming a cookie-cutter or over-powered in terms of skill-ranks. And at 1st level 1 rank in Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Speak Language isn't a huge bonus, but it is handy to have. That's a additional language, which may or may not be unbalancing depending upon the game (again, this is just a rough idea!) and at least a basic knowledge of how to talk someone around. At 5th level, assuming that the Fighter continues to devote 1 skill point to the [Speechcraft] Skill Block that is effectively 8 ranks in Bluff and 5 ranks in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Sense Motive and Speak Language. Now just looking at that I can see that Speechcraft isn't going to work too well in the Skill Blocks. A) you'll run out of languages very soon and B) Somebody with a Int of 10 or around that mark isn't going to be able to keep learning new languages at the drop of a hat. Again, this is just a idea that I've put out there. Now, if we were to drop the Skill Blocks to just 3-4 skills per 'Block', then we might have this. [Speechcraft] (Revised) Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive This keeps the 'Knowledge' skills out of what is effectively 'talking' skills, Speak Language, which stacked the deck a bit too much for the [Speechcraft] Block is removed and kept aside for perhaps it's own Skill Block, and allows the Fighter to have decent verbal skills without becoming a master orator. Again, any and all comments, queries and lynchings are welcome. On to the topic of monsters and skill blocks, I was thinking more along the lines of that Classes, and not Racial Hit-Die, are capable of using Skill Blocks, but at the same point you raise a valid question, Talcon. Let's take a look at the Blackscale Lizardfolk. Gains 2 skill points per HD, multiplied by 4 at 1st HD. Using the above rules, a Blackscale would nominally take the [Sensory], [Movement] and [Wilderness] Skill Blocks...and that makes it a bit more powerful than most parties that tackle CR 3 enemies can handle. It would be able to hear the sweat dripping off the Cleric's chin and onto his holy symbol, spot the three-day-old mosquito-bite on the Rogue's left ear as the Rogue tried to sneak up on the Blackscale Lizardfolk and so on, and so forth. Again, limiting the Skill Blocks to 3-4 skills at most and using a Primary and Secondary skills ruling (Primary has maximum skill ranks, Secondary skills have a -3 penalty to skill ranks) assures that the Blackscale Lizardfolk might be able to jump with ease over obstacles in the area it guards, and swim like a fish in the sea, and maybe even hear the PCs coming from behind a thick wooden door, but would it be able to spot them? Climb as fast as they could? No. Again, this is why I put the Skill Block idea out there because it's raw, unfinished and needs a hell of a lot of polish before I put it before my players.