Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Metafictional 06-25-07, 09:02 AM	Use Magic Device says you are never allowed to take 10 with the Skill. The Rogue Special Ability of Skill Mastery, however, states you can choose any Skill and always be allowed to take 10 with skill checks. Since other Classes (Artificer, I believe, and definitely Warlock) also get a Class Ability that allows them to take 10 with UMD checks, can I assume Skill Mastery works as well? Either this is an evil trick, or something every Rogue does at level 10 (well every Rogue who sees the advantage of UMD, at least).
zeratulcraft 06-25-07, 09:16 AM	Rules go as written unless somewhere else it says they dont, so yes, Rogues cant take 10s on UMD with Skill Mastery. UMD Rogues would no doubt choose this. I actually prefer Imp Evasion first...but yeah.
Davro 06-25-07, 10:18 AM	Normally you can't take 10 on UMD. Artificier's UMD skill mastery makes a specific exception to this. Rogue's doesn't. It only says you can take 10 in conditions that would normally stop you taking 10.
Leilond 06-25-07, 10:19 AM	Normally you can't take 10 on UMD. Artificier's UMD skill mastery makes a specific exception to this. Rogue's doesn't. It only says you can take 10 in conditions that would normally stop you taking 10. Agree.
RobbyPants 06-25-07, 10:39 AM	Normally you can't take 10 on UMD. Artificier's UMD skill mastery makes a specific exception to this. Rogue's doesn't. It only says you can take 10 in conditions that would normally stop you taking 10. Seconded (or thirded, or whatever :P).
Vegepygmy 06-25-07, 03:20 PM	Since other Classes (Artificer, I believe, and definitely Warlock) also get a Class Ability that allows them to take 10 with UMD checks, can I assume Skill Mastery works as well?No, you may not, for the reason stated by Davro.
Metafictional 06-26-07, 07:18 AM	Ok, well thanks all. I guess I'll just have one unhappy Rogue player.
RobbyPants 06-26-07, 08:54 AM	Ok, well thanks all. I guess I'll just have one unhappy Rogue player. Hopefully not too unhappy. By tenth level, said PC should have a pretty high UMD score... ;)
sleepydeath 06-26-07, 09:27 AM	It only says you can take 10 in conditions that would normally stop you taking 10. not sure about this When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 EVEN IF stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so
Dalthbar 06-26-07, 09:45 AM	The UMD skill simply says "You can't take 10". The rogue's skill mastery let's them take 10 in _conditions_ that they otherwise couldn't take 10 on, not for skills that they can't take 10 on. This means they can take 10 when distracted, in combat, etc. It doesn't let them take 10 on UMD simply because UMD doesn't allow anyone to (with the exception of those few class abilities that clearly state they can).
OrganicAngelAlexiel 07-04-07, 04:58 AM	Epic Level Handbook has an NPC that has UMD as a skill mastered skill, though errata says you can't even skill mastery it. Go figure.
Pindar 07-04-07, 06:22 AM	Is it right that you can't use Skill Focus with UMD? If so what is the reasoning for it?
runestar 07-04-07, 06:50 AM	You can take skill focus on UMD.:) I agree with the rest as well. Skill mastery simply allows you to take 10 on a skill more readily, but it also means that the skill in question must be one which allows you to take 10 in the first place.:)
Psikerlord 07-04-07, 07:12 AM	skill focus and magical aptitude gives you +5, then get 5 ranks in decipher script and spellcraft for extra +4 synergy (with scrolls at least), then say cha 16 and perhaps an item to boost cha, and you should have a very high UMD score by 10th. High enough to activate wands and mid level scrolls so that you fail only on a natural 1.
Metafictional 07-04-07, 11:25 AM	Except what you're failing to point out is that such a build is sacrificing valuable Feat slots and skill points to accomplish a solid chance of success. So what you're saying is, a Rogue optimized for UMD can, by 10th level, automatically succeed at certain UMD checks. Well that's great, but here's the counter to that argument: If a class is expected to pour not only skill points in a skill, but also in other skills to claim synergy bonuses, and take two or more Feats so that their skill will always function (and I'm not even getting into their stats) when it's a skill that NEEDS to always function, then you have a problem. I mean, UMD is cute, but it's not the most important skill a Rogue can take. Are you saying that it's "reasonable" for a Rogue to devote multiple Feats to make sure he never fails at finding or disabling traps? At hiding or moving silently? Or, for the love of Gygax, Tumble checks? Hopefully you see the problem with this line of thinking. UMD is not a core class ability of the Rogue. It's a potentially very nice trick, but spending so much effort to make it as viable as it needs to be that your actual core class abilities are suffering in comparism is not a very good idea. If a character gets one action in a combat, it has to be a good one. It has to simply work, 95% of the time, or it can't be counted on. Every % lower than 95% just increases the odds of you going to make your one action a turn and just end up sitting there like a fool. For a more detailed look into UMD, see my sig. I have a post on page 6 of the thread that explains this logic in more detail.
Steevo 07-04-07, 11:28 AM	not sure about this When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 EVEN IF stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so The key words here are "stress and distractions." The rogue may take 10 even if stress and distractions would otherwise prevent her from doing so. UMD says you can't take 10, period. It has nothing to do with stress and/or distraction. In other words, Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on any skill that you normally could take 10 on, even if the situation you're currently in would normally prevent it.
Psikerlord 07-04-07, 05:04 PM	I think two feats are fine - esp if you're human and take 1st level fighter... but I would only do this for UMD, not tumble or any other skill. UMD is a special case. A mid level rogue with a wand of grease and scorching ray, scrolls of shield, dimension leap, mirror image, blink, improved invisibility - is gonna be trouble for any foe. And not to mention hastes, cure lights, prot from evil and other buffs you can give party members. The real problem is gold - you spend a lot on scrolls and other expendible items. On the other hand, your rogue's power & flexibility increases thru the roof. Worth it in my book.
SALDAR 07-04-07, 07:45 PM	High enough to activate wands and mid level scrolls so that you fail only on a natural 1. Automatic failure on a natural 1 only applies to saving throws (PHB 136) and attacks (PHB 134), not to skill checks. UMD does stipulate that if you roll a 1 on the check and if that check is a failure you cannot attempt to activate that item again for 24 hours (PHB 86). So you can roll a 1 on the check and succeed if the check is high enough. Except what you're failing to point out is that such a build is sacrificing valuable Feat slots and skill points to accomplish a solid chance of success. If that is the intent of that build then it is not sacrificing anything. It is using its resources to optimize the chosen build. In this case, at 10th level, it would use 2 feats (of 4, or more if human or using other options) and 23 of 104 available skill points (more with an ability bonus). Not all rogues are TWFing sneak attacking fighter builds.
Nom 07-04-07, 11:52 PM	Rules go as written unless somewhere else it says they dont, so yes, Rogues cant take 10s on UMD with Skill Mastery. UMD Rogues would no doubt choose this. I actually prefer Imp Evasion first...but yeah.Off topic, but I find Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll both rather weak. Improved Evasion only kicks in when you fail a Ref save, which a 10th+ level rogue should very rarely do. Defensive Roll is even more limited - it kicks in when combat damage (not spell or special ability) would reduce hp to 0 or below, requires a Ref save vs damage dealt, and functions once per day. Most hits that you really need to be worried about - those dealing a significant portion of your hp - will have a massively high DC. For others, retreat before it becomes a problem. If they were free, both are certainly not useless. But when the alternative is Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Skill Mastery, or a bonus feat, it's not much of a contest. It's almost always better to choose a feat you will use often and can manufacture situations to use it than one where you should be actively avoiding ever having opportunity to use it.
Dheran 07-05-07, 09:04 PM	Off topic, but I find Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll both rather weak. Improved Evasion only kicks in when you fail a Ref save, which a 10th+ level rogue should very rarely do. While true, the downside for a Rogue with their weak HP failing a save (at least 5% of the time) is typically pretty dire. Improved Evasion is one answer, but there are others. My favored solution is to multiclass with Cleric and use the Pride domain's granted power. Defensive Roll is even more limited No argument there; it's only useful as a prerequisite for the Epic Dodge feat. If they were free, both are certainly not useless. But when the alternative is Crippling Strike, Opportunist, Skill Mastery, or a bonus feat, it's not much of a contest. It's almost always better to choose a feat you will use often and can manufacture situations to use it than one where you should be actively avoiding ever having opportunity to use it. Since the advent of the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) I would almost never suggest taking a bonus feat instead of a Rogue special ability. You only need to take Savvy Rogue once and it applies to all those special abilities -- even the ones you acquire later. Savvy Rogue puts those abilities on steroids.