Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AgravaneThane 06-29-07, 09:41 PM	A rougue hits 10th level. He gets to pick a special ability form a short list or he can take a bonus feat. my question is: "Why doesn't this skill-based class also get the option to add a levels worth of skills also? As a rogue, I'd almost always rather have an additional 8+ int. skill points for my ever so precious skills. Thoughts?
angryscrub 06-30-07, 12:23 AM	you could always take open minded. 5 instead of 8+ (though i'm not claiming an additional 8+ skill points would make the rogue broken), but 5 extra is 5 extra, if you're really set on being a true skill monkey.
Dheran 06-30-07, 03:47 AM	A much better plan is to opt for the Rogue special ability Skill Mastery. This lets you take 10 on a whole bunch of skills (except Use Magic Device, alas) under any conditions. So for known DCs (such as 35 to Tumble at full speed right through an enemy's square) you can stop buying skill ranks when your modifier is enough to hit that DC with a 10 instead of the worst case rolled 1. This has the same effect as buying 9 x (# skills mastered) in skill ranks: a huge boost. Note that Skill Mastery works with cross-class skills, too, so the value in skill points could be double. Also if you look at the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) you'll see that the feat lets you take 12 on all skills you've chosen for Skill Mastery; that's probably a good bet for your next regular feat. While you don't get retroactive skill points for boosting your INT, there's no prohibition on boosting your INT temporarily when you're going to select the skills you master. Fox’s Cunning will let you master two more skills if you don't have any INT enhancement.
angryscrub 06-30-07, 08:15 PM	A much better plan is to opt for the Rogue special ability Skill Mastery. This lets you take 10 on a whole bunch of skills (except Use Magic Device, alas) under any conditions. So for known DCs (such as 35 to Tumble at full speed right through an enemy's square) you can stop buying skill ranks when your modifier is enough to hit that DC with a 10 instead of the worst case rolled 1. This has the same effect as buying 9 x (# skills mastered) in skill ranks: a huge boost. Note that Skill Mastery works with cross-class skills, too, so the value in skill points could be double. Also if you look at the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) you'll see that the feat lets you take 12 on all skills you've chosen for Skill Mastery; that's probably a good bet for your next regular feat. errm, i'm not gonna deny that skill mastery is nice, because i tend to agree, but it does NOT save you having to put skill points in a skill. 35 is a great DC to hit for tumble, but what if you're on slippery ground, at an angle, and you actually have to tumble through 2 occupied squares? all of a sudden your DC is 44. treat a fall as if it were 30' shorter? DC 45. take no damage from a fall of any length? DC 100. you can NEVER stop putting points into tumble if you really want to be good at it (i guess unless you never fight more than one opponent on anything but level ground, and never fall farther than 10'). once again, don't get me wrong, i really like skill mastery, it's nice to take the guesswork out of it, but it does not really save you any skill points you can use to help get additional skills, unless you can give me an actual example of a skill with a "known" upper DC target (and be sure to check out the skills section in the epic rules in the SRD, many of those DCs are achievable pre-epic levels).
Dheran 07-01-07, 12:36 AM	errm, i'm not gonna deny that skill mastery is nice, because i tend to agree, but it does NOT save you having to put skill points in a skill. 35 is a great DC to hit for tumble, but what if you're on slippery ground, at an angle, and you actually have to tumble through 2 occupied squares? ... once again, don't get me wrong, i really like skill mastery, it's nice to take the guesswork out of it, but it does not really save you any skill points you can use to help get additional skills, unless you can give me an actual example of a skill with a "known" upper DC target. While I take your point that you can never have enough skill points, Skill Mastery definitely helps your skill point allocation. Though there are exceptional circumstances that will change the DC required, most frequently your targeted "take 10" number will be the one you need. If you have a 25 Tumble modifier you've got a 100% chance of making it through a single enemy space at full speed, and if you need to Tumble through a second enemy you can roll the die and have a 45% chance of succeeding on that. Without Skill Mastery you'd either have only a 55% chance of succeeding on the first enemy -- or it would cost you 9 more skill points for the same chance of success. Those 9 points, most of the time, are better spent on other skills.
AgravaneThane 07-01-07, 10:09 AM	I think you guys are missing the point. I really appreciate all the suggestions (really), but what I am asking is if you think a rogue should be able to add another levels worth of skill points as a 10th level option instead of a bonus feat or a special ability. After all, it's askill baed character.
Lucas Blackstone 07-01-07, 10:32 AM	As long as you don't mean raising the rank limit over level +3 I don't see the big deal.
angryscrub 07-01-07, 03:11 PM	as a rogue special ability, by level twenty you could take it four times. assuming 18 int (which is probably high for most rogues) that would be 48 additional skill points by level 20. that's basically two additional skills with max ranks. personally, i don't see it as a problem. i mean, i guess maybe there is some way that at level 20 having 14 skills at max ranks instead of only 12 skills could break the game, but really i'm not seeing it. generally one 9th level spell is going to have way more of an impact on the game anyways.
SunTzuWarmaster 07-01-07, 03:34 PM	Ask your DM, it is generally inferior to other options so your DM shouldn't be against it.